Government finally admits: Immigration IS placing huge strain on Britain

[Michael Tee]

Kudos to _JS for exposing the neo-Nazi backing of the current anti-immigrant hate crusade in Britain.  I wasn't really following the debate closely and wasn't aware of it myself.  Although from the type of hateful ideas being spread, I realized the people behind it all really had to be pretty sick and despicable  to attack hard-working immigrants like that.

I skimmed through the original article posted, all the lies and obvious half-truths and thought it a really shoddy piece of work.  One statement in particular caught my eye: 

<<A Home Office study found that migrants helped to grow the economy by [symbol] 6 billion last year. But experts said this did not mean they had boosted GDP per head, a crucial measure.>>

So the economy grew by six billion (presumably euros) but this did not mean that GDP per head [a "crucial measure"] had grown.  So this "crucial" measure, despite all the other "estimates" and guesses and pure bullshit, was never ascertained.  Oh, and it must have been a really COMPLEX matter to figure out this crucial measure.  The GDP divided by the pre-immigration population compared to the GDP divided by the post-immigration population.  Wow, a real brain-teaser. 

If anything, this sloppiness and intellectual dishonesty is the best indicator of the real nature of the ministers' "report."  They are acutely aware of the disillusionment felt by many of Labour's base supporters over the British government's participation in the criminal fascist war of aggression against Iraq, and hope to rope some of them back into the fold by turning a "new leaf" following Blair's departure - - NOT by repudiating the criminal war, but by pandering to the basest instincts of thier working-class constituency - - their latent racism and xenophobia, exacerbated by the "threat" to their jobs posed by the harder-working, hungrier immigrants.

[Amianthus]

Oh, and it must have been a really COMPLEX matter to figure out this crucial measure.  The GDP divided by the pre-immigration population compared to the GDP divided by the post-immigration population.  Wow, a real brain-teaser. 

The problem is that tax revenues are based on GDP, so the revenue per head did not increase. However, health care costs per head did increase.

[Christians4LessGvt]

yes, attack the messenger if all else fails
thats as funny as when they attacked Governor Arnold about his father
maybe JFK should have never been President because his father's anti-Semitism
hey it's easier that dealing with the attitudes of people that don't want their countries invaded by illegals
if someones wants the laws of the United States enforced, well imply they are a racist, and that will maybe silence them
it would be like every time the ACLU is mentioned to announce that the founder of the ACLU once stated "Communism is the goal"
but then js that would be as lame as your argument

[_JS]

yes, attack the messenger if all else fails

You're using friggin' Fascists to make your anti-immigration debate for you. I'm not talking about your "Islamofascist" Orwellian terms. These are very real, Holocaust-denying, thugs in the street, deport the non-whites Fascists.

Just how horrible does the messenger have to be before your little rule of thumb does not apply?

You're damn straight I'll verbally attack Nick Griffin and his BNP buddies every time you or any other person on this board uses them to make their arguments. At first I figured that you quoted them without knowing who they really are and what they stood for (you know, an American who doesn't really follow British politics). I can't really blame you for that.

But to defend them? Perhaps you really do know and don't mind the BNP after all. In which case, I can see why we butt heads.

Your reply is crap. This has nothing to do with anyone's father. The BNP is a real party, fully aware of what they desire. Their damn policies are online at their website for Pete's sake. Nick Griffin is still the leader. Sheesh.

You can go there and read about deporting foreigners all you like. Here's the website: http://www.bnp.org.uk/

Unbelievable.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Holocaust-denying

what like the kind your leftist invite to speak at Columbia and wined and dined to dinner in New York by the Liberal Press?

i certainly have not wined/dined and invited anyone from BNP to speak

i betcha your leftist hoodlums at columbia would not invite BNP, but will invite people involved in IED's killing americans

invite a man that is actually involved directly and/or indirectly in killing US soldiers every single day

how many IED's from the BNP are killing American soldiers on a daily basis?

where was your outrage js?

how horrible does the man have to be js before you are outraged?

Just how horrible does the messenger have to be before your little rule of thumb does not apply?

ask Comumbia's and the liberal press.
see above

I can see why we butt heads.

well duh
you want to "control of my life", because you think you know better, it's called socialist disease
i don't like people that want to "control my life" and think they know whats best for me

Your reply is crap. This has nothing to do with anyone's father.

oh so "it's crap" but you post an article that demeans the man using his father?
if it has nothing to do with it, then why is it in the body of your post?

read about deporting foreigners all you like.

if they point out fallacies in the arguments about how "great" chaotic immigration
is thats what I am interested in. what their views are on deportation is an entirely
different subject, but I know you would rather demonize the messenger than
deal with reality.

 

[Michael Tee]

<<The problem is that tax revenues are based on GDP, so the revenue per head did not increase. However, health care costs per head did increase.>>

Run that one by me again, Ami, keeping in mind that I don't know jack-shit about taxes.  The tax revenues are based on GDP, or the tax revenues are in some kind of proportional relationship to the GDP?  Obviously there's something less than direct proportionality involved, but the more GDP (theoretically) the more tax revenues.

I didn't see anything in the study to indicate that there was a net drain on the GDP caused by immigration, but I don't believe that the GDP would be the measure of the total effect of immigration anyway.  How do you measure the increase in intellectual capital if the best and brightest of eastern Europe are attracted into Britain and their progeny are just entering elementary school?  How could anyone have measured the intellectual capital building in Little Italy and the Lower East Side and Chinatown during the years of unrestricted immigration into the U.S.A.?

Who is more likely to contribute to a brighter British future, the children of today's immigrants or the skinheads and the BNF?  To ask the question is to answer it.

[_JS]

what like the kind your leftist invite to speak at Columbia and wined and dined to dinner in New York by the Liberal Press?

i certainly have not wined/dined and invited anyone from BNP to speak

i betcha your leftist hoodlums at columbia would not invite BNP, but will invite people involved in IED's killing americans

invite a man that is actually involved directly and/or indirectly in killing US soldiers every single day

how many IED's from the BNP are killing American soldiers on a daily basis?

where was your outrage js?

how horrible does the man have to be js before you are outraged?

And now we completely change topics for no reason. Of course I've never used an article  by the Iranian President to make my debates for me. I have nothing to do with the University of Columbia and wouldn't even know how to go about finding out how they approve or disapprove of who gets invited to give a guest lecture. I have no friggin' clue what IED's have to do with anything, but I have posted a number of times (with outrage) that the Sunni militants in Iraq have killed more US soldiers by a large factor than the Shi'a militants, yet that usually falls on deaf ears.

ask Comumbia's and the liberal press.

LOL

So you feel justified in your outright defence of Fascism, because Columbia University invited the President of Iran to speak? By the way you used the BNP as a reference. I've never used the President of Iran as a reference. What happened to personal responsibility?

well duh
you want to "control of my life", because you think you know better, it's called socialist disease
i don't like people that want to "control my life" and think they know whats best for me

Right...

Apparently you and your Nationalist pals know what's better for the "foreigners" than they do.

oh so "it's crap" but you post an article that demeans the man using his father?
if it has nothing to do with it, then why is it in the body of your post?

What article are you talking about? I really have no idea. Who did I demean for "using his father?"

if they point out fallacies in the arguments about how "great" chaotic immigration
is thats what I am interested in. what their views are on deportation is an entirely
different subject, but I know you would rather demonize the messenger than
deal with reality.

Not this time, my friend. You're very comfortbale with the BNP and it shows. I noticed that you didn't use Klan research for this. You like Fascism, at least have the damned grapes to admit it.

[Michael Tee]

i betcha your leftist hoodlums at columbia would not invite BNP, but will invite people involved in IED's killing americans

invite a man that is actually involved directly and/or indirectly in killing US soldiers every single day

how many IED's from the BNP are killing American soldiers on a daily basis?

where was your outrage js?

how horrible does the man have to be js before you are outraged?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I won't speak for _JS, but MY outrage is reserved for the illegal, criminal invasion of Iraq in the first place in flagrant contravention of international law.  If American soldiers invaded MY country without just cause, they would deserve to die for it, and I can't see any less justice being applied in Iraq either.  Your phony sense of outrage is entirely misplaced and misdirected.  Blame Bush and Cheney, not the patriotic Iraqis who resist their criminal actions.

[Universe Prince]

What article are you talking about? I really have no idea. Who did I demean for "using his father?"

I think he means this:

But let's look at the party that Christians United for Less Government is using to attack immigration. It is a far right wing party run by Nick Griffin, a law graduate of Cambridge whose father was a Conservative Party local councillor.

Which makes no sense at all really, but it's the only time you mentioned someone's father.

[_JS]

It was just a little background information. If anything, his father was far milder than him. Nick Griffin is the Fascist. His father, Edward did attend some National Front meetings (or BNP meetings, I forgot), but I believe he remained a member of the Conservative Party, i.e. Tories.

I only mentioned Edward Griffin for background and in no way was accusing him of anything. I honestly don't know a whole lot about the man.

Nick Griffin, on the other hand, is very much a Nationalist and is the leader of the BNP.

I hope that clears things up.

[Universe Prince]

Prince countered with an article from the Guardian, which is primarily read by Labour and Liberal Democrat voters. It is a broadsheet paper, infamously known as the "Gruaniad" for an historic misspelling of their own name once! It is a far more respected paper in terms of journalism (the right-wing equivalent would be The Telegraph).

I'm okay with that. If it makes you feel any better, I have used The Telegraph as a source before. I have, however, never used The Sun.

[Amianthus]

I didn't see anything in the study to indicate that there was a net drain on the GDP caused by immigration, but I don't believe that the GDP would be the measure of the total effect of immigration anyway.

There wasn't a "drain" since it said that GDP per head didn't increase. Tax revenues are proportional to GDP, so tax revenues didn't go up per head, either. However, health care costs per head went up, so healthcare per head is taking up more of the tax revenue than previously. Either that, or less services are provided. Either way, it's a strain on the healthcare system.

A properly functioning economy will have an increasing GDP per person every year.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Apparently you and your Nationalist pals know what's better for the "foreigners" than they do.

yes i certainly do know what to do with illegal invaders of my country and i make no apologies for that

[Christians4LessGvt]

Not this time, my friend.

we are not friends

You're very comfortbale with the BNP and it shows.

yes i am very comfortable with the information in a rebuttal to the study showing how "wonderful" chaotic immigation is
while the majority of the populations in these countries want the chaos stopped. if it's so wonderful why do the majorities
want it stopped?

I noticed that you didn't use Klan research for this.

Duh, I used a rebuttal to the information discussed

You like Fascism, at least have the damned grapes to admit it.

yeah sure mr want to run my healthcare and life with collectivism and socialism

[Christians4LessGvt]

LOL  - So you feel justified

i dont feel justifed or unjustified
i do not seek justification
thats not the point

in your outright defence of Fascism

liar
btw can you produce data from this thread where I have "defended fascism"
i cant wait to see the spin

because Columbia University invited the President of Iran to speak?

"dont get it alert"

the reason i brought up Columbia was not to justify anything I wrote/posted/or believe
i don't need or seek justification
it was to point out what a fraud you are with your apparent "outrage" over a source (not the facts, just the source)
for a rebuttal of a study showing how wonderful the results are of chaotic immigration


By the way you used the BNP as a reference. I've never used the President of Iran as a reference. What happened to personal responsibility?

see above
and btw you did bring up "Holocaust-denying" pretending outrage and but showed no outrage when leftist invite "holocaust-deniers" as guests of honor
it's just interesting