Government finally admits: Immigration IS placing huge strain on Britain

[Michael Tee]

<<There wasn't a "drain" since it said that GDP per head didn't increase. >>

So far, so good.  I didn't see it in the article, but I'll take your word for it, since I can't scroll over to page one from here.  Since there was nothing to indicate that the per capita GDP didn't decrease, I take it that it remained the same per capita figure as it was before the influx of immigrants.  In other words, a massive influx of immigrants had no net effect on per capita GDP.

<<Tax revenues are proportional to GDP, so tax revenues didn't go up per head, either. >>

I don't know how you can draw that conclusion unless you can show that tax revenues are directly proportional to GDP, i.e. that an x% rise in the GDP leads to an x% rise in tax revenues.  That seems highly unlikely to me.  Particularly if the U.K. has a graduated income tax, which I believe it does.  Even if it doesn't, I'm sure that there would be tax exemptions and credits that are not equally available to all taxpayers.  I would think it very likely that the tax revenues DID NOT increase at the same rate as the GDP but whether the percentage increase and the per capita increase were greater or lesser than the comparable rates of increase in the GDP is not clear to me.

<<However, health care costs per head went up, so healthcare per head is taking up more of the tax revenue than previously. Either that, or less services are provided. Either way, it's a strain on the healthcare system.>>

It might very well be that even if health costs per head were up, and if immigration were the cause of that (which I haven't seen proven in any way) that there might have been other services paid for from the general tax revenues whose costs were down due to immigration, so the singling out of health costs alone from all the possible outlets for disbursement of the general tax revenues may be purposively selective.

<<A properly functioning economy will have an increasing GDP per person every year.>>

I remember once reading an introduction to the study of economics by an editor or former editor of the Wall Street Journal, French last name, I believe, but he cautioned against reading too much into a GDP figure.  It's the sum of all the goods and services sold in the country, but the one example he gave sticks with me to this day:  if a tanker spills a load of oil on the shoreline and billions are required to clean it up, the billions spent on the cleanup are fed into the GDP just the same as if they represented new cars rolling off the assembly line.  But the new cars represent a positive gain for the economy and move all Americans forward financially (directly or indirectly) whereas the oil spill and the GDP numbers stemming from it represent a catastrophe and a huge waste of money and the environment.

Anyway, my point being that GDP is only an indicator and not the last word on the benefits or otherwise of immigration into Britain or anywhere else.

[sirs]

Perhaps I can provide some Q&A op-eds on the serious negative effects of the type of open border advocation you and Mr Legrain seem to support.  You'll accept those with just as much objective validity, correct?

Legrain offered his opinion, but I think he also made a reasoned case. Will your op-eds do that?

They would, if you allowed the points being made thru and not blocked by the current open borders need for this country.

No, more like decreased resources,

A larger labor force and tax base would be an increase in resources.

Not when many of those same workers are payed in cash, off the books, and with no deductions for taxes at all

decreased health care services,

Why would that occur?

Asked and answered many a time already.  Our current healthcare provisions are finite resources.  You can't just wish more ER's, more doctors, and more money to pay for services.  Since so many simply use the ER for medical needs that aren't emergent (because they can not afford health insurance or know they can receive free care by simply going to the ER), and that the Fed mandates that everyone be treated, regardless of the ability to pay, more and more ER's & trauma centers across the country have had to close because of bankruptcy.

So, is that your goal, UHC as run by the Fed?  Or is that one of the repercussions (I was referring to) you're trying very hard to ignore?  Maybe it'll just go away, right?

increased taxations,

Again, why would that occur? An increase in the tax base would boost tax revenue.

Asked and answered already, the increase in mass immigrants that would largely be payed with off the books takes AWAY tax revenue, while tax payers will be mugged with increased taxes to pay for the failing healthcare & education systems, especially as the Fed takes over to "fix the crisis".  Same way they've "fixed" SS.  Not to mention the many who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds

the overcrowding of schools which become even that much more underfunded,

I don't know about where you live, where I live (a state with possibly the worst public education system in the nation), the problem is not funding. The problem is misspent funding. We build the fanciest damn schools I've ever seen, decked out in a fashion that high end hotels would envy (okay that might be an exaggeration, but not by much), and then run out of money for books. (What kind of budgeting for education runs out of money for books? Who plans like that? That is the kind of thing that tempts me to slap the people responsible and ask them, "What the hell were you thinking?") You'd think someone would figure out that less expensive coat hooks (no seriously, you should see these things) would leave more money for books, but apparently not. Sorry, did I get off topic? Anyway, the larger tax base would help with the funding.

And again with the false hope of a "larger tax base", as if THAT's the key to it all.  According to fairus.org, the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers.  The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.  Our schools, especially in the urban areas are ALREADY overcrowded.  Here again is yet another repercussion of your well intentioned open border wish, the increased cost to the state and to tax payers to educate the mass increase in students within a system already overcrowded.  I guess we just wiggle our nose again, and *poof* more schools, more teachers, and all is well       

lowered wages,

We have minimum wage laws. I'm not sure whose wages are going to be lowered.

And that's being enforced how again?  You realize that many of those illegal immigrants I'm referring to are being payed at or below minimum wage.  Add to that, that it is estimated that between 40 and 50% of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers.   

Yes, a larger labor force means employers won't have to pay as much, but that usually results in costs of living not going up. In any case, this would be a short term issue, imo. As I have said before, let capitalism work, and when the poorer countries are better off economically, then people won't have to come here for low-paying jobs.

And one more time, I have NO PROBLEM with people wanting to come to America to make a better life for themselves, to pursue the American Dream.  Simply to do it legally, & get in line

increased poverty,

Increased poverty for whom?

The country.  According to the Immigrants and Welfare, Research Perspectives on Migration' report released by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- International Migration Policy Project, approximately 1.4 million immigrants receive AFDC or SSI payments totaling $4.5 billion annually.  Their average monthly AFDC payment is $133; their average SSI payment is $407. Estimates using a more broadly defined package of benefits and counting benefits from state and local as well as federal sources indicate that immigrants receive approximately $25 billion annually in assistance benefits.  Meaning, the country as a whole, becomes poorer, not to mention financially/economically more fragile.  But as long as everyone is covered..oh wait....wrong well intentioned idea.....as long as everyone can come in when & how they want     

increased loss of a common language & culture,

Do I really need to address that again?

No, since it's pretty transparent how you care so very little about American culture.  Sad is the best way to describe that

an expectation of higher crime,

An expectation for which I have yet to see any substantive support.

It's been there for you to see plenty, Prince.  Simply that those facts and trends don't fit so nicely with how well inentioned open borders are supposed to be.  But I'll remind some others.  Referenced in many places, but I'll use Leadership U for now, criminal immigrants account for more than 25% of all inmates in federal prisons and is the fastest growing segment of the prison population.  The federal prison population of non-citizens has increased by about 15% per year from the mid-1980s to the present. Upkeep for each prisoner costs the taxpayers $21,300 per year.  Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.  I can't keep up with the number of stories in Los Angeles alone of drive by killings, rapes, and murders by gang members found to be illegal immigrants.

traffic congestion,

A solvable problem, but one faced in many places already.

Precisely, a problem we already have, which you seem to have no problem with it getting exponentially worse.  another repercussion, but *poof*, we'll snap our fingers, and the problem will be solved.  If it hasn't been solved at this point Prince, what the hell makes you think adding 10's of millions more people will make it more solvable??

I'm not talking about spending, I'm talking about mindset of advocating what one may feel good about and be "well intentioned", and damn the repercussions of it, if it ever came to fruition.  Pushing open borders is right up there with pushing endless social spending programs.  Both sound good, both have the sincerest of intentions, and both have fatal flaws to the economy & country

I don't agree.

Well of course you don't.  All the repercussions I've layed out, and there's many more, including the national security angle we didn't even touch, requires you to turn your head, snap your fingers, and all will be well.  I must retire for the evening now.

[_JS]

Apparently you and your Nationalist pals know what's better for the "foreigners" than they do.

yes i certainly do know what to do with illegal invaders of my country and i make no apologies for that

Hey, it works fine for me. At least I know where you're coming from. Your points come right off of Nationalist literature.

What you likely know, and others here may not know is that Nick Griffin, the BNP leader, has met with David Duke. He is idolized by Stormfront and AryanUnity.

But you keep on using BNP as your trusted source and keep on attacking me, because I called you on it.

Yeah, the anti-immigration arguments have nothing to do with racism 

[Christians4LessGvt]

and js you keep attempting to marginalize and demonize because thats easier than facing reality
i've never heard of the BNP or Nick Griffin until this thread
so once again you are wrong
i am not interested in how the BNP would deal with illegal invaders because thats not the topic of the thread
however i do appreciate their rebuttal to the non-sense the pro-chaos crowd vomits out
my points come right off the american people's lips
the same american people that want a fence built
the same american people that want the illegal invasion brought under control
the same american people that are mad as hell about the illegal invasion
you can pretend it's racism, thats easy, just demonize and then you can have your little warm and fuzzy leftist "feel good"
i am part german and i absolutely do not want tens of millions of germans suddenly arriving here illegally, speaking german,
and demanding all sorts of rights, flooding our schools with non-english speaking students, flooding our hospitals, flooding
our prisons, flooding our courts.
i am german, and I would not want a huge mass of german illegal inavders any more than the illegal invaders we have now
but yeah js, it racism
what a joke

[_JS]

illegal invaders

illegal invasion

Right. Most "invasions" involve armies of laborers coming across the border to...build, farm, or God forbid...go to school.

Look at your terms. Look at your sources (which you continue to defend). I don't need to "demonize" anyone. I simply speak the truth. The BNP are who they are and you deem them fit to use as a legitimate source for your debates. That's fine. But when you use extreme right wing Nationalists, don't expect others not to point it out. There's no "demonizing" about it. You use the BNP, the National Front, or any other like-minded organisation to make your point and I will make sure that everyone else in this forum knows what those organizations are. I promise.

As for the Germans (something I know a little about), the truth is that there is no great influx of Germans flying into the United States. Your hypothetical is meaningless in the real world.

What we do have are primarily Mexicans, with a different culture and religion than the mainstream WASPs of American society hold. When you use Nationalists to make your arguments, you cannot seriously expect that anyone takes the "but this has nothing to do with race" preface seriously.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Most "invasions" involve armies of laborers coming across the border to...build, farm, or God forbid...go to school

js it's not all rosy:

Federal, state and local governments spend billions of dollars each year educating, caring for and incarcerating illegal immigrants

California is considering paying other states to house the thousands of illegal immigrants
in its prisons, according to a statement from the governor's office.
More than 10 percent of California's prison population is in the United States illegally.
This costs California roughly more than $500 million annually.

Illegal immigrants cost the United States billions each year in welfare and healthcare costs,
and this is when they are not even eligible for benefits. If they were made eligible,
the costs would quadruple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEfmDtxdhM

LA County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich announced that a new report shows
illegal aliens and their families in Los Angeles County collected over $35 million in welfare
and food stamp allocations in July 2007 alone.

The Center for Medicaid Services at the Dept. of Health and Human Services reported that for FY 2001,
the health care costs for illegal immigrants in California were over $648 million.

Fraudulent Social Security cards, driver's licenses and birth certificates are being bought by thousands of illegal immigrants each year. These false documents are used by individuals to get millions of dollars worth of welfare, public housing and Social Security benefits.

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually.


I will make sure that everyone else in this forum knows what those organizations are. I promise.

Yes and I will continue to expose your hypocrisy and phony outrage.

As for the Germans (something I know a little about),

oh brother
oh but i forgot you have all the degrees
are you going to announce that again?

the truth is that there is no great influx of Germans flying into the United States.

there does not have to be in an analogy

Your hypothetical is meaningless in the real world.

No it is a perfect example that destroys your typical leftist need to smear people that don't at all buy into your bigoted dogma
You want to pretend it's about racism so you can demonize, but when it's shown it's not, you call it "meaningless".
Again,whether it's Germans or Mexicans, the American people and I oppose tens of millions of illegal invaders.

 When you use Nationalists to make your arguments, you cannot seriously expect that anyone takes the "but this has nothing to do with race" preface seriously.

You are right I normally expect leftist to smear and change the subject rather than deal with the facts.
Just like the Hillary thread about her possibly bombing Iran, was quickly changed to another topic.
Just like clapping for Ahmadinejad and booing/heckling/attacking Ann Coulter & the Minute Men off the stage.
Intolerance for those that disagree.
Ya know, throw a pie in her face, it easier than arguing with her facts.

[Michael Tee]

The problem that anyone has in arguing with your facts is that they are incomplete and selective.  There is no population that is without a criminal element.  No population without its sick element, its lazy element.  So naturally if you have an illegal immigrant population, you are going to have illegal immigrant criminals.  Illegal immigrants sick in hospitals.  Illegal immigrants collecting public assistance. 

Knowing the cost of incarcerating, hospitalizing, etc. the illegal immigrants is only a small part of your story of what they cost.

First of all, Illegals pay taxes too.  So some of the costs are offset by the taxes they pay.  Nobody bothers to estimate the amount of taxes paid by the illegals, only how much they "drain" from the tax revenues.  But that's crazy accounting.  It's like telling a guy, "You should fire your secretary because her salary's a drain on your revenues."  Sure, if you persist in ignoring the value of her contribution, it makes sense to fire your secretary.  You'd have to be crazy not to.  But what's crazier is to look at only one side of the equation.

Illegal immigrants work longer, harder hours than Americans and Canadians for less pay,and little if any fringe benefits.  In that sense they contribute to the economy more than the average Canadian or American worker.  They work at dirtier and more dangerous jobs, the ones that no one else wants or will accept.

I really don't know if, on balance, they are an economic plus or minus, but I do know that the oponents of illegal immigration do not usually present a full and balanced picture of the economic case against them, if there is one.

[sirs]

....I really don't know if, on balance, they are an economic plus or minus, but I do know that the oponents of illegal immigration do not usually present a full and balanced picture of the economic case against them, if there is one.

Minus all the above rationalization efforts, I also do see a trend of proponents of open borders (I do appreciate Tee referencing this accurately as those opposing illegal immigration vs the inaccurate attempts of making this about opposing immigration in general) frequently omit/ignore the full picture as well, only tending to focus on the "humanity" angle, and the hope that there would be this "larger tax base" to deal with the problems that would be running rampant, when not only is that highly questionable, in the amount of increased social service expenses that would be brought in, but minus all the other negative repercussions brought about by such a policy

Then again, such a policy facilitates exactly what the likes of Tee look forward to, that of a greater and greater Federal government footprint, with more and more services required, to the eventual point that the Fed will need to step in to "fix all the problems" stemming from those repercussions.  Hillary (as well as Obama, Edwards, and company) has to be salivating at the prospect

[_JS]

Most "invasions" involve armies of laborers coming across the border to...build, farm, or God forbid...go to school

California is considering paying other states to house the thousands of illegal immigrants
in its prisons, according to a statement from the governor's office.
More than 10 percent of California's prison population is in the United States illegally.
This costs California roughly more than $500 million annually.

Is this a problem with illegal immigration or California's penal system? 

LA County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich announced that a new report shows
illegal aliens and their families in Los Angeles County collected over $35 million in welfare
and food stamp allocations in July 2007 alone.

If we had open orders, as the EU does, which would allow these immigrants the right to work anywhere in the United States, they would not need welfare or food stamps. And $35 million? Compare that to the cause of border control...it is a drop in the bucket.

The Center for Medicaid Services at the Dept. of Health and Human Services reported that for FY 2001, the health care costs for illegal immigrants in California were over $648 million.

Because they are only allowed to seek emergency care in the ER, the most expensive hospital treatment possible. That is not the fault of the immigrants, but of United States law.

Fraudulent Social Security cards, driver's licenses and birth certificates are being bought by thousands of illegal immigrants each year. These false documents are used by individuals to get millions of dollars worth of welfare, public housing and Social Security benefits.

And the more you crack down on illegal immigration, the more the fraud racket will grow, and get more high-tech as well. It is small time right now. You are fighting against basic economics here. Wait until there are labor smuggling operations pulling in tens of millions of dollars a year. It is just like the "War on Drugs." You can't defeat basic economics, all you're doing is making it more expensive. Did your research into British immigration not show you the Turkish and Bulgarian smuggling rings...some wealthy entrepreneurs out there.

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually.

Source? And what is the cost of leaving them uneducated?

I will make sure that everyone else in this forum knows what those organizations are. I promise.

Yes and I will continue to expose your hypocrisy and phony outrage.

Go kiss your picture of Nick Griffin when you say that!

As for the Germans (something I know a little about),

oh brother
oh but i forgot you have all the degrees
are you going to announce that again?

No. I was born in Germany and my mom is a German citizen.

the truth is that there is no great influx of Germans flying into the United States.

there does not have to be in an analogy

If you want it to resemble reality, then you need to make it believable.

Your hypothetical is meaningless in the real world.

No it is a perfect example that destroys your typical leftist need to smear people that don't at all buy into your bigoted dogma
You want to pretend it's about racism so you can demonize, but when it's shown it's not, you call it "meaningless".
Again,whether it's Germans or Mexicans, the American people and I oppose tens of millions of illegal invaders.

Yeah right. I noticed that nothing you stated had anything to do with students (mostly white) overstaying their visas. Nope. This has to do with Mexicans. Wave the flag of Nationalism...we know what that means.

When you use Nationalists to make your arguments, you cannot seriously expect that anyone takes the "but this has nothing to do with race" preface seriously.

You are right I normally expect leftist to smear and change the subject rather than deal with the facts.
Just like the Hillary thread about her possibly bombing Iran, was quickly changed to another topic.
Just like clapping for Ahmadinejad and booing/heckling/attacking Ann Coulter & the Minute Men off the stage.
Intolerance for those that disagree.
Ya know, throw a pie in her face, it easier than arguing with her facts.

Wow. What a pile of feces you saved for the last paragraph. You keep bringing up Ahmadinejad, but it is YOU who are using Holocaust-deniers to make your points for you.

Toddle off now. Your "brothers" are probably having a meeting.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"but I do know that the oponents of illegal immigration do not usually present a full and balanced picture of the economic case"

and neither do the pro-border chaos proponets

[_JS]

Then again, such a policy facilitates exactly what the likes of Tee look forward to, that of a greater and greater Federal government footprint, with more and more services required, to the eventual point that the Fed will need to step in to "fix all the problems" stemming from those repercussions.  Hillary (as well as Obama, Edwards, and company) has to be salivating at the prospect

That is laughable Sirs. How are you going to "beef up security" and construct a wall on the border with Mexico without "increasing the Government footprint?"

I'd say a wall is one hell of a footprint. More to the point, just like the DEA, we'll be spending more money every year to fight a battle against basic economics that we cannot possibly win. You'll just continue to drive the demand for the labor up.

Federal footprint, what a crock of shit.

[sirs]

Then again, such a policy facilitates exactly what the likes of Tee look forward to, that of a greater and greater Federal government footprint, with more and more services required, to the eventual point that the Fed will need to step in to "fix all the problems" stemming from those repercussions.  Hillary (as well as Obama, Edwards, and company) has to be salivating at the prospect

That is laughable Sirs. How are you going to "beef up security" and construct a wall on the border with Mexico without "increasing the Government footprint?"

Easy, because the latter which you reference, is actually ENFORCEMENT of existing law, with the consitutional obligation of protecting this country, that the Fed is SUPPOSED to do.  The former, to which I was referencing was specific to the ever increasing Social programs, with no end in sight in the amount of money required to run them, much less the exponential increases in dealing with the mass increase in open border immigration would prompt.  And if you didn't notice, there is no insidious increasing Fed bureacracy with a wall.  There's simply, a wall

I mean, I appreciate softball questions Js, but hanging softballs?

[Christians4LessGvt]

is this a problem with illegal immigration or California's penal system?  

The California penal system is not for housing huge numbers
of people that should not even be in the United States.

You question is like asking an arena supervisor that has had thousands of
people sneek/con their way into a game and there are not enough seats for the people that
are at the event legally "well isn't this a problem with Madison Square Garden just not
providing more seats and it's not any of the fault of the people that are here without a ticket".


The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually.
Source?

http://www.house.gov/garymiller/IllegalsCost2005.html


If we had open orders, as the EU does, which would allow these immigrants the right to work
anywhere in the United States, they would not need welfare or food stamps.

Uh?
where have you been?
we both know in effect they pretty much do have the ability to work anywhere in the US

And $35 million? Compare that to the cause of border control...it is a drop in the bucket.

If it was only 35 million it would be, but the 35 million is just one single aspect of the huge burden
that federal, state, and local governments are having to deal with in regard to the illegal invaders

Because they are only allowed to seek emergency care in the ER, the most expensive hospital
treatment possible. That is not the fault of the immigrants, but of United States law.
  
Gosh you're right, we should set up free medical care and free RX for all the illegal invaders
hey world, just get here, and get free bilingual education, free medical, and welfare & food stamps
civil war

And the more you crack down on illegal immigration, the more the fraud racket will grow, and get more high-tech as well. It is small time right now.

Is that kind of like, the more you crack down on medicare fraud the more the fraud racket will grow?
so just sit back and accept it?

You are fighting against basic economics here. Wait until there are labor smuggling operations pulling in tens of millions of dollars a year.

There wouldn't be any if it were up to me.
They would not get jobs, so there would be no reason to smuggle anyone in.

It is just like the "War on Drugs." You can't defeat basic economics, all you're doing is making it more expensive.

Kind of like insurance fraud, by enforcing the law and procecuting the law we are making it more expensive.
Maybe we should just make insurance fraud ok and sanctioned by law, since we can't defeat it all.

Go kiss your picture of Nick Griffin when you say that!

Look in the mirror and see a fraud and liar.

No.

Thank God.

I was born in Germany and my mom is a German citizen.

I better understand now.

if you want it to resemble reality, then you need to make it believable

you live in fantasy land, so that would be impossible

Yeah right.

Yeah it is right and you cant stand it
The American People want a fence built.
You can pretend I am some big racist, because you cant deal with the facts.
But are the American People racist because they want a wall built?
Do the American People have the right to say "ENOUGH" we dont want any more illegals.

I noticed that nothing you stated had anything to do with students (mostly white) overstaying their visas. Nope.

I said Germans. Most Germans are white. I don't care if they are white, black, yellow, brown, or pink
I do not want and the american people do not want millions of illegal immigrants coming into the United States
Just say NO to illegal invaders.

This has to do with Mexicans. Wave the flag of Nationalism...we know what that means.

Yeah the American People are racist.
They shouldn't have the right to control their own borders and decide who gets in.
Yeah JS knows what best.

Wow. What a pile of feces

Looking in the mirror again?

You keep bringing up Ahmadinejad,

Yes and I will continue exposing your phony outrage

but it is YOU who are using Holocaust-deniers to make your points for you

And it is you who have selective outrage when your politcal bretheren invite/wine/dine an american soldier killer

Toddle off now. Your "brothers" are probably having a meeting

The American People are my brothers and they want the fence built.
Read it and weep.

[Michael Tee]

<<LA County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich announced that a new report shows
illegal aliens and their families in Los Angeles County collected over $35 million in welfare
and food stamp allocations in July 2007 alone.>>

And illegal immigrants at the same time probably boosted the profits of all local area employers by working long hours at low wages, thereby increasing tax revenues; bought more goods and services, paying sales tax on every purchase and thereby increased tax revenues; paid income tax; fixed up shitty old houses they lived in; kept up neighbourhood property values by watering lawns and gardens that nobody else would bother to water for the coolie pay they received; kept teachers and hospital workers off the welfare rolls by making more jobs available in those fields.

<<Fraudulent Social Security cards, driver's licenses and birth certificates are being bought by thousands of illegal immigrants each year. These false documents are used by individuals to get millions of dollars worth of welfare, public housing and Social Security benefits.>>

We've already dealt with the increased costs of welfare, housing and benefits.  That these were obtained by fraud adds nothing to the cost of the benefits.  The fraud in and of itself is no BFD.  After all, they were only following the example of your "President," who defrauded an entire nation into waging a disastrous war with his cock-and-bull story about the "threat" of Iraqi "WMD."

<<The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually.>>

a hundred years ago, equivalent sums were being spent to educate Jewish immigrants and their children on the Lower East Side, Italian immigrants and their kids in Little Italy, etc.  I'd say in the intervening years, considering the contributions these kids and their immigrant parents made to America, America more than received its money back, with interest.

[Christians4LessGvt]

we'll never agree on illegals cost or benefits
the experts dont, i doubt we will either
the american people want a fence built
so they don't agee that it's a plus
they want it stopped
it's their right to decide they can control their own border
they have the right to say "NO"