The real "war on children"

[Plane]

You (plane) talk about SS "collapsing" as if it were an independent organic being with a life of its own, like an albino tiger or something.  It is a creation of government like the U.S. Army, and like the Army it will collapse or thrive depending on whether the government of the day collects taxes and forks them over or not.

If the people of the U.S. continue to elect governments that care more about oil (oops, excuse me, about "bringing democracy" to the people of Iraq, of all places!) than they care about the American working class, then there WILL be a "collapse" of the system and it won't have funds to pay benefits to its elder citizens.  However, the lucky citizens of Iraq WILL have "democracy" forced down their throats at a cost of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives every year and even more crippled and maimed.

No there is no way to produce enough money to make the SS permanantly solvent , no way at all.

If every dime that was dedicated to defense were instead dedicated to Social Security,this would merely delay the inevitable  few more years.

Billions without counting (literally) have been skimmed off the Social security program all of the years that it produced a surplus , that surplus is over.

The number of people availible to contrbute is shrinking the number entitled to take a share is growing these two facts are all you need to know to understand the inevitability of collapse.

Yes it can collapse even though it is a government program .
Government is not magic.

[Michael Tee]

<<No there is no way to produce enough money to make the SS permanantly solvent , no way at all.>>

Sure there is.  Calculate what SS will need.  Calculate what SS has.  Subtract the latter from the former to get the shortfall.  Figure out how much of the military budget will be cut and given to SS.  Subtract that from the shortfall.  What remains is what has to be raised from the rich by taxing their inheritances and/or their capital and finally their investment income.  Voila!  Problem solved.

<<If every dime that was dedicated to defense were instead dedicated to Social Security,this would merely delay the inevitable  few more years.>>

I'd like to see some numbers.  Otherwise that is just waffling.

<<Billions without counting (literally) have been skimmed off the Social security program all of the years that it produced a surplus , that surplus is over.

And more waffling.  If it's true, the government owes the money back to the people.  Or at least back to the beneficiaries of the system.  No problem - - pay it back.  Issue some more bonds to China.  If the Chinese won't invest because they are overinvested and their original investment was squandered in Iraq, THEN I admit there might be a problem.  THAT'S when some massive criminal trials ought to be held for whatever public officials looted the SS and send these guys to jail for life. 

<<The number of people availible to contrbute is shrinking the number entitled to take a share is growing . . . >>

Come on, it's a surge, not a permanent upward climb.  There will be a squeeze during the years of "boomer entitlement" and then the squeeze will ease up.

<<these two facts are all you need to know to understand the inevitability of collapse.>>

Come on.  What you really need is numbers.  Ten to one the numbers really are not on your side, but they will prove the need to raise a lot of new taxes on the rich.  And sell a lot of bonds.  You can do it, America.  First of all, kick out the militarists from both parties and cut the "defense" budget down to one-twentieth of its present size.  Keep a big reserve on hand, like Switzerland.  or Israel.

[Plane]

<<No there is no way to produce enough money to make the SS permanantly solvent , no way at all.>>

Sure there is.  Calculate what SS will need.  Calculate what SS has.  Subtract the latter from the former to get the shortfall.  Figure out how much of the military budget will be cut and given to SS.  Subtract that from the shortfall.  What remains is what has to be raised from the rich by taxing their inheritances and/or their capital and finally their investment income.  Voila!  Problem solved.

Ok, calculate what SS will need to take from each contributor when there are fewer contributors than recipients.

Then calculate this over again every time that the ratio worsens.

There will come  time that the SS demand is higher than the money the country makes , sometime well before that point the system will collapse.


Sell bonds?
Who was buying bonds issued by the Weimar government of Germany?

There is a limit to borrowing and that limit will be approached rapidly , and soon.


Here is a question to ponder ,How long have we been spending more on social programs than military programs?
Now subtract military retirement payments from collum B and add them to collum A.

We already spend a lot more on retrement and welfare and  careing for the disabled than we do for defence , and the ratio is growing wider.

You have not suggested anything we are not already doing in a big way and it is not enough , not nearly .

The Social Security Program is doomed and this is a fact.

[Plane]

Come on, it's a surge, not a permanent upward climb.  There will be a squeeze during the years of "boomer entitlement" and then the squeeze will ease up.

I m really interested in why you would think that.

Do you expect another baby boom?


Do you expect "boomers " to survive only a short time?

Do you think that the people due entitlements can wait a few years without payments?

[Plane]

<<Billions without counting (literally) have been skimmed off the Social security program all of the years that it produced a surplus , that surplus is over.

And more waffling.  If it's true, the government owes the money back to the people.  Or at least back to the beneficiaries of the system.  No problem - - pay it back.  Issue some more bonds to China.  If the Chinese won't invest because they are overinvested and their original investment was squandered in Iraq, THEN I admit there might be a problem.  THAT'S when some massive criminal trials ought to be held for whatever public officials looted the SS and send these guys to jail for life. 

All the members of Congress since the SS system was instituted?

How about Clinton who crowed about a surplus in tax recipts , which would have been a deficit without counting the FICA recipts.

How a bout the public at large that didn't bother to do the arithmatic .

The only people not in jail will be the few who cried in the wilderness and wern't listned to, and Al Gore with his "lockbox".

[Michael Tee]

<<Do you expect another baby boom?>>

Nope.

<<Do you expect "boomers " to survive only a short time?>>

No, but a finite time.

<<Do you think that the people due entitlements can wait a few years without payments?>>

No I don't.  If there's a shortfall, it comes out of the military budget and the rich.  As I said, from estate and inheritance taxes, from property taxes, and from taxes on properties held outside the U.S.A.  That will be a period of time when somebody will have to be squeezed, somebody won't like it, but the government can choose between squeezing the rich or squeezing the SS beneficiaries. 

If the government won't do it, the people better pick a new government.  if they pick the same-ole same-ole, then they DESERVE to get fucked and stay fucked.

[Michael Tee]

<<All the members of Congress since the SS system was instituted?>>

Nope, I'd go for those who voted to loot SS, not those who protested and voted against.

<<How about Clinton who crowed about a surplus in tax recipts , which would have been a deficit without counting the FICA recipts.>>

Nope, because crowing ain't the same thing as looting.

<<How a bout the public at large that didn't bother to do the arithmatic .>>

Nope, because it wasn't their responsibility.  That's what representative government means.  That's what they elected their representatives to do.  If I pick someone to act for me and he robs me blind, I want that guy's ass in jail.  Pure and simple.  If I vote for a guy to go to Congress and be responsible for such things as my social security, I want him to BE responsible for my social security.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Plane, you are the last person I would believe about Social Security. You are mostly a dittohead, repeating like a large green parrot every stupid thing that Limbaugh and the rest of your ratwing mentors squawk.

Juniorbush and his useless, stupid war in Iraq is the greatest threat to SS in decades. Right now, inflation is beginning to pay for his many mistakes.

Social Security will be funded if the people demand it. Putting an end to the Iraq War will be a major step in saving Social Security from the Juniorbushies and their associated assortment of thieves and looters.

[Michael Tee]

It's just mind-boggling.  They can blow half a trillion on the war in Iraq, they can put people in space and send robot probes to other planets, but they can't "save" social security.  And they seem to have no trouble at all finding people willing to believe this ludicrous crap. 
Any country that loses its bullshit detector is in big trouble.

[_JS]

It's just mind-boggling.  They can blow half a trillion on the war in Iraq, they can put people in space and send robot probes to other planets, but they can't "save" social security.  And they seem to have no trouble at all finding people willing to believe this ludicrous crap. 
Any country that loses its bullshit detector is in big trouble.

Tee, these are the people who convinced many of the working classes and poor that they need to promote tax cuts for the wealthy so that the wealthiest can begin the "trickle down effect" of supply-side economics. They convinced these people, without any evidence between points A (100% taxation) and points B (0% taxation) that Laffer's curve was a parabola and worked exactly as drawn on a paper napkin.

There are middle ages divine-right Kings who wish they had the ability to influence their peasants and serfs to give them money - willingly. They just used the time-honored tradition of brute force and threatening to throw them off their land and leave them to starve or banditry. But to actually convince people of this idiocy...one has to appreciate the Machiavellian masterstroke of pure Palpatine-like genius, even if one has no respect for neoliberalism at all. 

[Xavier_Onassis]

It is amazing that Laffer got so much mileage out of his silly paper napkin. A true economist does his homework and has things far more convincing than a dumbass cocktail napkin.

It is incredible that the dorks and dorkettes in the Reagan administration accepted the legendary cocktail napkin as a medieval monk might accept the miraculous toebone of St Simeon Stylites or something.

Reagan began with a deficit and pumped it way out of control.

Olebush managed to hit up the Japanese and others for the cost of his mongered Iraq War, but he ran it up even higher. It took Clinton to bring it down a notch.

But to no avail, Juniorbush has run it even higher.

And CU4 actually thinks that the GOP is somehow going to be responsible. Reagan was the poster boy for irresponsible ignorant presidents until Juniorbush came along and Sumo pushed his ass off the mat, as it were.

[Michael Tee]

<<Tee, these are the people who convinced many of the working classes and poor that they need to promote tax cuts for the wealthy so that the wealthiest can begin the "trickle down effect" of supply-side economics. They convinced these people, without any evidence between points A (100% taxation) and points B (0% taxation) that Laffer's curve was a parabola and worked exactly as drawn on a paper napkin.>>

_JS, I'm not so sure they convinced working-class America with the Laffer curve.  I don't even know what it is, so how the hell would the working class?   I would like to know what percentage of working class votes did go to Bush, and for what reasons?  My own theory is that Bush played upon their patriotism and skillfully re-directed their latent anger and resentment away from the real causes (wage slavery to the ruling class) and towards the "enemies of America," the Arabs, the snooty French, etc.  American culture has always fostered an undercurrent of violence and machismo - - men, real men, "proved themselves" by how they stood up to an "enemy," and standing up, 99 times out of 100, meant kicking ass and taking lives.  All that stokes a smouldering fire of belligerence and unfocused rage, which the Republicans have a genius for exploiting.  I'm sure the elections have been overanalyzed and somewhere there's an exit-poll-based explanation of how voters decided and what working-class buttons the Republicans pushed most successfully.

I think the Laffer curve and other pseudo-economic mumbo-jumbo was probably more successful with the middle class and the professionals, some of which have by now earned their way upwards and out of the middle class.  It gave them a sophisticated rationale for the politics of greed and selfishness.

But bottom line, I don't really think the Bush gang convinced anyone with anything.  Bottom line is they LOST the popular vote and they stole the election in the Electoral College, then used the power of incumbency to lever Bush into a second term.  Either legitimately by a much smaller margin than officially indicated, or, like the first time, illegitimately again.

[Plane]

If there's a shortfall, it comes out of the military budget and the rich.

Already a smaller resource than the present demand.


The potential shortfall is infinite , but the shortfall that can cause crisis is pretty small , just a year with half payments and the colapse will commence.

If the Baby boomers would last only a short time the problem would be surmountable , unfortunately a lot of them will live longer than two years after their retirement.

[Plane]

<<All the members of Congress since the SS system was instituted?>>

Nope, I'd go for those who voted to loot SS, not those who protested and voted against.

What congressmen protested and voted against?

I doubt that there were ten.

[Plane]

Social Security will be funded if the people demand it. Putting an end to the Iraq War will be a major step in saving Social Security from the Juniorbushies and their associated assortment of thieves and looters.

I demand that YOU pay me six million dollars.


No?


Why won't it happen if I demand it severely?