3DHS on Torture

[sirs]

Coming to this thread soon: an explanation of how these actions to "support the revolution" are ok.

Can't wait to watch that trick         

[Xavier_Onassis]

Torture is just as wrong for Cuba as it is for the US or anyone else.

The problem with Juniorbush's Administration is that they oinstantly claim that they don't torture, when they do, and even send prisioners on to the Egyptians or anuyone else who will use even worse torture.
Buch lies, he knows he is lying, and we know he knows that we know he is lying. And the torture continues, all information classified so we canb't do anything about it/

[_JS]

Tee appears to want to debate "torture", and even though it's been discussed adnauseum, I started a thread for those that may wish to chime in

Head slapping is NOT torture, can we agree to that?  Made to listen to loud music and various means of sleep deprivation is NOT torture.  Can we agree to that?  Being made to wear panties on one's head is NOT torture, can we agree to that?  If we can't even agree to the above, I really see no reason to continue.  Can we all agree to that?

Sleep deprivation can most certainly be defined as torture.  The Romans did not play semantics with sleep deprivation, they called it tormentum vigilae or "waking torture." It is a tactic that the Imperial Japanese and KGB used thoroughly. The British used it on IRA prisoners as well. South Africa was infamous for their use of sleep deprivation on ANC prisoners during apartheid.

You're problem here Js, is that ANYTHING prolonged over an extended period of time, that is even remotely unpleasant, can be construed as "torture",  Being locked ina room listneing to rap would be torture.  My attempt here was to try and provide a foundation of what we can agree is and isn't torture.  Meaning the ACT itself, not simply a repetition of an act.  I thought that was explained in my 1st response to Prince, where we went from simple head slapping --> prolonged slappping and literally being beaten up.  The act isn't torture, it's the repetion that could cause physical harm to the person.  But since no one wants to really come to a concensus on even the trite stuff, such as head slapping, humiliation, and loud music, again, there's no reason to even attempt to discuss ACTUAL ACTS of supposed torture.

Sirs,

You said: "various means of sleep deprivation is NOT torture."

I am simply disagreeing with your statement.

Now you are saying that it is a factor of time. Well of course it is! The entire purpose of sleep deprivation is a factor of time. Anyone between a young infant and the very elderly can withstand a single night of not being permitted to sleep. Most can probably withstand two.

I am not going to get into a puerile argument of assigning an arbitrary hour of when sleep deprivation becomes torture. My point is simply that your statement is wrong. Sleep deprivation is torture. The Romans knew it. The KGB knew it. Pinochet and his regime knew it. Why not just admit it?

Sleep deprivation is torture.

There, it is easy to do. Now, the real question is: do you support using torture? Playing semantics is a mindless activity.

[_JS]

Coming to this thread soon: an explanation of how these actions to "support the revolution" are ok.

Can't wait to watch that trick         

Oh nice, you, Ami, and the Christians United for the BNP are using equivalency so you don't have to make your own arguments.

You realize of course that even by doing so, you are saying that the US can use torture because Cuba does. Nice.

[Amianthus]

You realize of course that even by doing so, you are saying that the US can use torture because Cuba does. Nice.

Nope. I'm against the use of torture. Where we disagree is whether or not waterboarding is torture.

I'm also amused by the hypocrisy of people who will justify Castro's use of political prisons and torture as ok, because it "supports the revolution." I've seen it before around here...

[Michael Tee]

<<I'm also amused by the hypocrisy of people who will justify Castro's use of political prisons and torture as ok, because it "supports the revolution." I've seen it before around here...>>

That's funny because I'm amused by the sophistry of people who will try to conflate Castro's alleged political prisons with his alleged use of torture, as if the issues were one and the same.

For the record, IF Castro used torture in the defence of the Revolution, it would be wrong.  I don't know of a single poster in this group who ever approved of torture, even by Castro's government, even in the defence of the Revolution.  Nobody.  That's just one more example of the lies and hypocrisy of the lunatic right, which we should all be used to by now.

I don't believe that there is torture in the Cuban system.  ALL Cuban prisons are probably more at the "hell-hole" end of the prison scale than the air-conditioned, wired-for-TV hotels with bars that the U.S. is pleased to call its prison system, but enemies of the Revolution, IMHO, do not deserve air-conditioning, TV or other amenities of life paid for on the backs of the peasants and workers of Revolutionary Cuba.  Most if not all of the accusations of torture in Cuban prisons can be traced back to Armando Valladares, a lying sack of gusano shit who has spent a virtual lifetime as an enemy of the people and will do or say anything to try to attack Fidel and diminsh his reputation.  The Revolution will shoot enemies of the people, but it will not torture them.

As far as political prisoners are concerned, that is total myth.  Another lie.  Each and every one of the so-called Cuban "political prisoners" was jailed for acts of espionage or for taking money from Americans to further their own counterrevolutionary activities.  These are legitimate crimes in ANY political system.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I disagree that there are no valid political prisoners in Cuba. Amnesty International claims there are, and I believe them more than I would believe you, Juniorbush, Fidel or any other interested parties.

If an axe murderer in the US deserves AC and TV, so does a political prisoner in Cuba.

Of course, the problem is with the word "deserves", which normally only inhabits bogus sentences.

The Cuban Revolution is pretty much wilted now.

Observe how the Chinese Communists, despite their oppression, have managed to get their economy to grow 9% per years for the past dozen years or so. They seem to be better at capitalism than people in nations where capitalism is worshipped. I suggest that the Chinese leaders are more competent than Fidel.

[Christians4LessGvt]

China has managed to get their economy to grow 9% per years for the past dozen years or so

don't they have what amounts to slave labor?

They seem to be better at capitalism than people in nations where capitalism is worshipped

are you saying we should return to slavery and pay forced workers $120 a month?

[Michael Tee]

<<Observe how the Chinese Communists, despite their oppression, have managed to get their economy to grow 9% per years for the past dozen years or so. They seem to be better at capitalism than people in nations where capitalism is worshipped. I suggest that the Chinese leaders are more competent than Fidel.>>

More competent AT WHAT?  Fidel stayed true to socialist principles.  The Chinese Communist leaders are transition leaders - - China is moving out of socialism before the objectives of equality and an end to exploitation of man by man have been reached.  China will probably enter its capitalist phase with more equality and equity than most capitalist states did, but it remains to be seen how much good that will do the Chinese people in the long run.

[Xavier_Onassis]

China has managed to get their economy to grow 9% per years for the past dozen years or so

don't they have what amounts to slave labor?

=================================
Do they? At worst, it is highly exploitative. The peasants that work in the factories consider themselves better off than they did back on the farm.

They seem to be better at capitalism than people in nations where capitalism is worshipped

are you saying we should return to slavery and pay forced workers $120 a month?
======================================================
I was making a comparison to Cuba. If the Chinese can maintain a growth rate of 9%, why can't Castro?

Presumably, Castro is far worse to Cubans than the Chinese leaders are to their people. Otherwise how would you explain Juniorbush ranting about how unferr Cuba is, while fighting his silly war on loans from the Chinese, with whom we are a major trading partner?

[Xavier_Onassis]

How is it that China can feed itself, when Cuba, which has two or three growing seasons and a lot of very fertile land, can't?

Are 'true socialist principles' not amenable to a natuion feeding itself?


Castro is magnificent at staying in power. He is less admirable when it comes to other leadership qualities.

[Plane]

<<- - China is moving out of socialism before the objectives of equality and an end to exploitation of man by man have been reached. 

You mean before thay all starved to death , the true end to which true communism is headed.
Mao was as sincere a Communist as any leader of hs scale could be , he had controll as close as was possible and he produced famine.

[Michael Tee]

<<Mao was as sincere a Communist as any leader of hs scale could be , he had controll as close as was possible and he produced famine.>>

How?  When?

[Plane]

<<Mao was as sincere a Communist as any leader of hs scale could be , he had controll as close as was possible and he produced famine.>>

How?  When?

You have knoledge of someone more communist than Mao?

How did this person fare as a leader?

[Michael Tee]

<<You have knoledge of someone more communist than Mao?

<<How did this person fare as a leader?>>

I don't think you understood the post you were responding to.  What I was asking for was details of the alleged famine that Mao supposedly caused.  It was sure as hell news to me.