Author Topic: another Ron Paul post  (Read 13242 times)

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Plane

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2007, 11:15:11 PM »
Why is it a punishment to be forced to come together and help your fellow man by developing a nation, a world, free of poverty? Free of hunger? With healthcare, education, and guaranteed employement for all?



Notice how lazy I can be?

Plane

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2007, 11:19:07 PM »
Who has real freedom and authority? George Bush, John Kerry, Vladimir Putin, or you?



As to authority I have no more than I need to meet my responsibilitys as is proper , no one needs more or less authority than is required for lveing and dischargeing responsibility.

As to freedom I much prefer my state of freedom to that of a major leader in the modern world.

Plane

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2007, 11:26:09 PM »
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I'm rather enjoying this. This is the best discussion I've had here in some time.


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Let me say that I am rather enjoying this as well.
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It is wonderfull to see the discussion become a fun sort of sparring .

Universe Prince

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2007, 01:21:02 PM »
I am late coming back to this because I've had a lot going on, and this reply will have to be relatively brief for the same reason.


Social Equality is a system of relationships where everyone has equivalent privileges and status, which can only exist in a classless society.


Okay, that would be one definition, and it is a good one. On the surface, ideally speaking, I like it. However, I think in practice it would be impractical to try to enforce this. If everyone were the same, wanted the same things in the same amounts to the same degree, it would work, but this is not the reality of human nature and human relationships.


Social Justice is concerned with two primary areas: the Life and Diginity of the human person, and the development of a classless society to eradicate poverty.


Life, dignity and the eradication of poverty, these are things with which I am also concerned, and which I think are addressed better with liberty and trade than with socialism. Personally, I am less concerned with the existence of classes than I am with making them barrier-less. I don't care if there is a wealthy class so long as there is nothing to stop people from getting there, which to me, is the same thing as having no classes, because then there will be a range of financial levels and there will be no single distinct class. We are, as a society, slowly getting to that point. I'm not saying there are not problems or that there are no poor. There are, but I think those problems will be better addressed by more liberty not less and by more trade not less.


These are taken from Marxist and Christian traditions.


I'll come back to that in a moment.


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I disagree. The problem comes from trying to force a redistribution of wealth that punishes people for surpassing some arbitrary limit of "unfair".

Why is it a punishment to come together and help your fellow man by developing a nation, a world, free of poverty? Free of hunger? With healthcare, education, and guaranteed employement for all?


Heh. Cute. I did not say punishing people for coming together to help others. I'm not against that and you know it. I am 100% for people coming together to help others, and if I like your group of people coming together to help others I'll even join you and help if possible. The problem is not people coming together, is not even persuading people to come together to help others. The problem is forcing other people who disagree with you to participate in your agenda whether or not they want to do so. The problem is punishing people for surpassing some arbitrary limit of "unfair" economic success.


The problem there is with Nietzschean concepts of individualism that disregard society.


That might be a problem for some, but not for me. I do not hold concepts of individualism that disregard society. My concepts of individualism embrace the notion of society, of people working together, of protecting society by protecting the individual. I'm not out to strengthen in individual at the expense of society. I believe that if we strengthen the individual, meaning not one person only but all individuals as individuals, then we will by extension strengthen society. Society is, after all, a collection of individuals.


There are some very successful companies owned by the customers and others owned by the employees. I agree with you, of course, on the issue of trade, labor, and the relationship of mega-corporations with the government. Yet, I'm realistic too. That is democracy. It may not be textbook democracy for wide-eyed high school American History students, but it is the grotesque reality whether one is a Democrat, Republican, Labour Party, Conservative Party, SPD, or CDU/CSU, Liberal, NDP, or Tories. That is part of the Neoliberal Consensus. That is part of Capitalism's reign.


I do not agree. Corporations partnering with government to control industry and business is not democracy. And frankly, imo, it is not capitalism either. I support capitalism, but I do not support the anti-capitalistic, competition and market stifling partnership between corporations and government. We do not have it because it part of capitalism. We have it because it is part of what happens when people cede power to the government. When we demand government regulate to the degree that we have, the partnering of corporations and government is inevitable. We will not solve this by demanding government do more, the partnership will only grow stronger.


Socialism promotes that the people establish control within a classless society. There is no ruling elite or bourgeoisie. (In fairness there are different schools of socialism, as with libertarianism, so I'm going to address my views as I suspect you will do with your own views.) The works councils will govern and democracy will be paramount, without the hindrances placed on it by social status.


Okay, but I do not see how we get there by giving the government more power. That seems the opposite of giving power to the people. Giving the government more power and authority, with less and less in the hands of individuals seems to me the opposite of empowering the workers.


Capitalism most certainly promotes inequality. The data has proven this with the rising Gini Coefficients over time for most western nations (with the exception of Scandinavia). The United States ranks with Cameroon and Uruguay. Denmark, Belgium, Sweden, Norway are the top in equality by Gini Coefficient standards and notably have larger welfare states than the United States (or Cameroon or Uruguay).


Okay, that would be income inequality, which, to my thinking, is not the same as social inequality. Apparently you equate the two. I do not. Which is why, when we speak of social inequality and/or social equity, I think pointing out that there are different ideas about what that means is important.


Your comparison is still flawed. The former is based on mysticism, the latter on scientific socialism. Claiming the same goal is irrelevant in your attempt to make the two equivalent. You could say that a shaman and a medical doctor are both trying to heal a patient. That does not make the two equivalent to one another, though their goal is identical. Your logic is flawed and you're better than smear tactics.


You say this after claiming that your definitions of social equality and social justice come, at least in part, from Christian tradition. So think perhaps the comparison is not so far off as you would make out. And from my perspective, to keep this comparison according to my thinking, the shaman and the medical doctor do not have the same goal. The shaman wants to get rid of evil spirits while the medical doctor is going to treat physical problems. The Christian fundamentalist and the socialist (the Michael Tee style socialist at least) want to do the same thing. It's like two medical doctors having different approaches to the same problem. They both want to fix society through control even if their ideas about how are somewhat different. The fundamentalist Christians, at least the kind I'm talking about this discussion, are not looking to shake talismans and shout evil spirits away from society. They want to enact practical (in the sense of actual rather than mystical) controls on society to correct the problems they believe exist in society. The socialists (again, the Michael Tee style socialist at least) want to enact practical controls on society to correct the problems they believe exist in society. And I oppose both for the same basic reason, I don't believe society can be fixed by trying to strictly control it. So from my perspective, the comparison is valid.


Who says there is no room for dissent?


When you call or at least imply that disagreeing with socialism is somehow not wanting to "to come together and help your fellow man by developing a nation, a world, free of poverty" that doesn't really leave a lot of room for dissent. So you tell me, is there room for a capitalist dissent in a socialist society? Is there room for libertarianism in a socialist society? Doesn't a socialist society depend a great deal upon everyone agreeing with (at least in general) socialism?


I'd suggest reading much more from Rosa, who at the time (from around 1911 to 1920) wrote some amazing works and was anathema to the German junker establishment and the rising Fascists, who viewed women's role as something much less than what Rosa had achieved. Writings of Rosa Luxemburg


I'll certainly do that.


Socialism removes the system by which the elite attain their advantages. It also removes the system by which the bourgeoisie live what Pink Floyd would call a "comfortably numb" existence. It removes any reason for nationalism and the wars that erupt from that. People are people. They are no longer their assets, their vehicles, their possessions, their ability to delegate power over other people.


I confess, I have hard time believing it could accomplish all that. That sounds altogether utopian to me. So tell me why it isn't.


Sure, liberty is real to those who have been locked away or enslaved. But we're not really talking the same "liberty" there, are we? This is a bit disengenuous of the libertarian. In fact, this only goes to prove the point more. The Government of our time can grant liberty, or it can take it away (jail, slavery). That was my point above. There is no, what Thomas Jefferson called, "self-evident truths." There is no liberty that exists for all men. So long as class exists, there is no real freedom for the majority of mankind. Who has real political power? Who has real freedom and authority? George Bush, John Kerry, Vladimir Putin, or you?


"The Government of our time can grant liberty, or it can take it away (jail, slavery)." Indeed. But it can also make laws that confine human action. A slave that has free movement and self will on the plantation is still a slave. A citizen who must conform his actions to the regulations of government (beyond those laws that protect basic human rights) or the worker council is not living in liberty. Okay, so you don't agree that Jefferson's self-evident truths are self-evident. But Jefferson was one of many men who felt their liberty was unduly confined by their government. Do all people have the same degree of liberty? No. In some ways I have more liberty than the people you named because I don't have the responsibilities of government. I have more liberty than people in the military, but then right now we have a volunteer military, so those people chose to be in the military. Should the rest of society be made to live at the military to be fair, to keep those of us not in the military from having more liberty? But what about the poor? Don't think I want to see them limited. And I'm not saying all poor people choose to be poor. Certainly I want to see poor get help to improve their financial states and to have access to health care and decent shelter and all that, but I also think people ought to have the liberty to choose a level of financial achievement that suits them. Some people want a lot. Some people want a little. Some want something in between. I see no reason to interfere in that liberty. If you take that away, that is not social equality or social justice, imo.


Socialism does offer something concrete, but I admit it is the more difficult path. Libertarianism is the easy route. It is individualistic. If you like you can take Nietzsche's and Ayn Rand's view that selfishness is good, everything you do is and should be for you, alone.


But I don't. Some do, yes, but I do not. And even Rand had a utopian ideal of a society where people worked together, benefiting each other (Galt's Gultch).


It is not much different than hedonism. "But that isn't libertariansim" comes the protest, ah - but it is! Ultimately it is the liberty to do as you please with the most minor of caveats. Everyone does as they please and the invisible hand of the market will fill all your needs.


On the contrary. Respecting the rights of others is not a minor caveat. It is the whole point. Liberty for all means exactly that, exactly respecting the rights of all individuals. And the invisible hand is the decentralized order of the market, leaving the power in the hands of the workers and consumers, which is exactly where you claim to want it to be.

And that is all I have time for just now. I'll get back to the rest of your post when I can.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2007, 03:51:34 PM »
Ayn Rand is the antithesis, in the best Hegellian sense, of the dictate that 'every thesis creates its own antithesis'. She is the exact antithesis of Lenin, c. 1919, as described in her vision of it in "We the Living", which was her very best novel. The characters in it are vastly better than the cardboard people in her other books, especially "Atlas Shrugged".

If humans are social beings, like meerkats or chimps or apes, then we are social beings, and are best when our governments reflect a more socially dictated structure. On the other hand, if we only band together in times of sheer adversity, like wolves, then something like Libertarianism should work best.

Communism has worked better in China than in the USSR, and the main reason seems to be that China has a much longer history of being unified under a similar culture than the hugely diverse population of the USSR.

The most prosperous Communist society to date, at least so far, was that of East Germany. Again, it was a homogenous population with limited diversity. What led to the downfall of East Germany was the even greater success of West Germany. Of course, it is doubtful that Marx would have approved of a domestic spy system like the Stasi.

Eventually, China will catch up with East Germany's record.

It seems that a limited Socialist organization, such as that of Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan eventually will result in a more prosperous and equitable society in the Chinese culture.

None of these countries could be described as libertarian in the least.

I don't expect the Libertarian movement to get much farther than the Anarchist movement.

Perhaps if Alaska, the Yukon or the Canadian NWT were separate nations, it might work there-sort of. Of course, distributing Alaska's oil wealth among the citizens on an equal basis is hardly Libertarian.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Universe Prince

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2007, 04:14:30 PM »

On the other hand, if we only band together in times of sheer adversity, like wolves, then something like Libertarianism should work best.


Nonsense. I don't understand why people think this way. No libertarian I know if has ever suggested that people should not work together. Quite the contrary, they all acknowledge that people working together, cooperating voluntarily either as a group or in trade or some combination thereof, is not only desirable but necessary.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2007, 04:29:15 PM »
The silverback gorilla has far more power in a band of apes than the Alpha wolf in a pack of timber wolves.

The wolfpack is largely voluntary and temporary. The gorilla band is neither.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Universe Prince

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2007, 05:46:55 PM »
Okay, back to JS's post.


Socialism offers the cold truth of reality.


Does it? From what I've seen, I don't think so. I think it offers a really nice sounding idea that might work if the world was one single homogeneous culture with everyone in agreement philosophically, but that is not the case, so I have to question that what socialism offers for society as a whole is reality.


Without classlessness, without social justice, social equality...we keep going the same direction. What is that direction? Inequality becomes greater and greater. Wealthy nations dominate poor nations. The wealthy class dominates the poor as the middle class feeds off the scraps and thanks the wealthy for it. Democracy continues to promote the elite, who continue to promote what is best for them and their class. Liberty shrinks as class consciousness grows and more and more people begin to understand that society is falling apart.


In a way I agree, and in another I disagree. As you mean classlessness and social justice and social equality, I disagree. As I mean classlessness and social justice and social equality, I agree. Eliminate subsidies, tariffs, artificial barriers to trade and allow capitalism to do for others what it has done for us. Allow the farmers in the poorer countries to trade their cheaper foods and the price of food goes down and the farmers' economic status is raised, improving life for them, their families and their communities. Stop allowing government and corporations to partner up to restrict competition and to make entering the market as difficult as possible, and allow people to innovate in the market and take risks. Create a chance for the little guy to challenge the larger business without having to be a huge corporation and you'll see more wealth redistribution, and it'll happen naturally, without forcibly taking money away from people. What was that you said about removing nationalism and the wars that arise from that? Open trade if that is what you want. The more people seek to get along with trading partners in other cultures, the more understanding between cultures there will be, and the less likely people will be to make war on their neighbor. Trade goods, not bullets.


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The socialist will talk about social equity in terms of everyone having the same of everything. Me, I see social equity as people being free to find their own place in society. Some people want to be rich. Some people like a simple middle class life. Allowing them both to decide, that makes them socially equal.

That isn't social equity...see above.


It may not be social equity to you. But it is social equality in my opinion. People free to pursue their own happiness, each as they choose without artificial barriers in the way, this is social equality. I don't equate wealth to class, and I don't need a lot of money to be happy. Some people want a lot of money and all that. Some people like living simply, with as few possessions as possible. I'm somewhere in the middle of that. I also believe in the whole love your neighbor as yourself and as you want others to do to you so do likewise to them. So since I don't want someone else deciding for me how I should live deciding what and how much I can have, essentially deciding for me what sort of life I should have, I do not desire to decide that for others. The rich business man, if he is honest, takes nothing from me unless I choose to exchange for his goods or services. I take nothing from others unless they choose to give it to me. How is this not social equality?

Yes, I know many poor people need help. I want them to get that help, and I contribute to that whenever I can reasonably do so. But I see things done in the name of social equality or social justice that harm the poor. Socialist ideas, for example minimum wage laws, get enacted and, as best I can determine, contribute not to the alleviation but the entrenchment of poverty. And so I cannot help but question why more socialism is the solution.



It isn't about "making other people comfy." It is about removing class from society and establishing social equity and social justice. It is about eradicating poverty. It is about establishing work for everyone. It is about world class education, universal health care, top of the line scientific research, not allowing anyone to go hungry, not allowing anyone to go cold, establishing a safety net with no cracks, top of the line infrastructure, etc.

It is a society for everyone and not for the few and priveleged.



It's about establishing a utopia where everyone is safe and cared for. I don't believe you can do it. Not to the degree that you seem to be claiming.

Don't get me wrong. I like your goals. I read that paragraph of yours though, and I am reminded of all the times you accused me of of ivory tower thinking. Because that is what I think you have there. You're trading liberty for safety to remove the bad consequences from the world. While I admire the goal of eliminating suffering, I don't believe you have presented, as you promised, the cold hard truth of reality. I think you're trying to escape it.

I don't fault you for wanting a better world. I want a better world too. But I don't believe socialism can deliver what you say it can. I don't claim liberty as a panacea for the world's problems. But I think it is the best way to get to the long term solutions that will do the most good for the most people. Trying to define for other people what should make them happy is, I think, not a solution with long term beneficial results. It is, in point of fact, a source of many of the world's problems.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2007, 05:49:11 PM »

The silverback gorilla has far more power in a band of apes than the Alpha wolf in a pack of timber wolves.

The wolfpack is largely voluntary and temporary. The gorilla band is neither.


However true that may be, I'm not talking about wolves or apes. I'm talking about humans.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2007, 08:05:58 PM »
So, you think that human political behavior is unrelated to genetics? I was using animals simply as a way of describing social phenomena

I observe that the Chinese seem to be much more easy to collectivize than people of other nationalities. I observe that in Japan, crime is a mere fraction of what it is in the US. It seems to me that genetics has rather a lot to do with the political system that a given group of people belongs to.

In China and Japan, crime , or specifically the lack of it, is related to the concept of 'losing face', or dishonoring one's family and ancestors. Most Americans do not see this as a deterrent at all. Losing face is a concept that emerges from the culture in which one lives, it appears.
 
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Universe Prince

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2007, 09:06:45 PM »

So, you think that human political behavior is unrelated to genetics?


It might or might not be. In either case, what I meant was I think human behavior is different than that of apes and wolves.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2007, 11:29:45 PM »
I never said it wasn't. But humans are more like apes than like wolves, anyway.

How about the Chinese and Japanese being more conducive to cooperative behavior than, say Africans or Caucasians?

 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Universe Prince

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2007, 04:33:23 AM »

I never said it wasn't. But humans are more like apes than like wolves, anyway.


Does this mean you think humans need a silverback alpha or human equivalent to keep them in line?


How about the Chinese and Japanese being more conducive to cooperative behavior than, say Africans or Caucasians?
 

I doubt that has as much to do with genetics as it does culture.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2007, 05:09:26 AM »

Socialism promotes that the people establish control within a classless society. There is no ruling elite or bourgeoisie. [...] Socialism removes the system by which the elite attain their advantages. It also removes the system by which the bourgeoisie live what Pink Floyd would call a "comfortably numb" existence. It removes any reason for nationalism and the wars that erupt from that. People are people. They are no longer their assets, their vehicles, their possessions, their ability to delegate power over other people.


Down in Venezuela, Hugo Chavez is, by all reports working on the construction of a socialist society. He apparently believes this requires himself being given, what seems to me to be, dictatorial power, including the elimination of term limits, allowing him to remain in office indefinitely. He also seems to be rather anti-yanqui. If he is not a nationalist, he would perhaps be a 'culturalist'. He does not seem to me like a man of brotherly love and tolerance. He does, however, seem quite interested in being the head of the ruling elite in Venezuela. So the question is: Is Hugo Chavez promoting socialism or not?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: another Ron Paul post
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2007, 01:32:08 PM »
Ch?vez is clearly a nationalist. He is a great admirer of Sim?n Bol?var, a fellow Venezuelan, known as the "George Washington of South America", one of three people in the world that currently has a country (Bolivia) named after him. [The others are El Salvador, named for the Savior, ie Jesus, and Saudi Arabia, named for In al Saud.]

Cecil Rhodes had two nations named after him at one time: Northern Rhodesia, named after his northern part, and Southern Rhodesia. named after his nether regions. But history has cruelly changed both to Zambia and Zimbabwe, and alphabetization has moved them to the end of the Roster.

It is not easy to implement massive societal reform without great political power. Rebvolutions that tried to change their societies without it have been doomed to change very little (Bolivia, 1952, Chile under Allende in the 1970's, Mexico in the period before Obregon took over.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."