Author Topic: Torture is already banned  (Read 2038 times)

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Lanya

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Torture is already banned
« on: November 06, 2007, 12:56:44 PM »
Now Why Didn't I Think of That? Washington Post Proposes That Senate Ban Torture!

Marty Lederman

The Washington Post today, straining to demonstrate Solomonic wisdom, urges Senators to do two things simultaneously: They should confirm Judge Mukasey and, at the same time,

    they should do something which, for all the rhetoric, they have so far declined to do: ban torture, by passing the National Security with Justice Act sponsored by Sen. Joseph R. Biden (D-Del.). The act would limit all United States personnel -- military and civilian -- to using only interrogation techniques authorized by the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation, which expressly prohibits waterboarding and which military leaders have said gives them the tools they need to get reliable information from difficult subjects.

Has it really come to this? Can one of the nation's leading newspapers actually decide to publish the words that it's about time "the Senate" finally "ban torture" -- something it has thus far "declined to do"?

-- On July 6, 1955, the Senate unanimously gave its advice and consent to the ratification of the Geneva Conventions, each of which (in Article 3, which applies to al Qaeda detainees) categorically prohibits "torture" (not to mention "cruel treatment").

-- On October 27, 1990, the Senate unanimously gave its advice and consent to the ratification of the Convention Against Torture
, article 2(1) of which obligated the United States to "take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction."

-- In compliance with article 2(1) of the CAT, in 1994 the Senate and House approved, and on April 30, 1994 President Clinton signed, the Torture Act, which categorically prohibits torture outside the United States (18 U.S.C. 2340A(a)).

-- And it's not as if torture was legal even before the Senate, House and President acted on these instruments. As the Supreme Court recently explained, under international law (including the laws of war binding on the executive branch), the flat ban on torture is among the handful of international law norms with the greatest "definite content and acceptance among civilized nations": Even for purposes of civil liability, "the torturer has become?like the pirate and slave trader before him?hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind".

All of which is to say -- and it's fairly amazing that this still needs to be said in this day and age -- if there is any single thing imaginable that the Senate, the Congress, and the world community have not "declined to do," it is to ban torture categorically. (Even Judge Mukasey understands this: He writes it dozens of times in his responses to the Senate.)

That's not to say it would not also be a good thing to enact the Biden bill, which would specifically require all United States personnel, including the CIA, to use only interrogation techniques authorized by the Army Field Manual. That would be yet another step that would help prevent the Bush Administration from violating the current bans on torture by doing things such as implausibly characterizing its torture as "not torture."

HOWEVER . . .

1. Whether or not the Biden bill ever becomes law, it remains the case that the torture is, in fact, unlawful -- and that the Senate and the Congress have voted repeatedly for actual laws and treaties (the supreme Law of the Land) that say so.

and,

2. Just in case the Washington Post has forgotten about yet another legal text, it's worth reminding Fred Hiatt that although the Senate's vote to confirm Judge Mukasey would effectively make him the Attorney General, the Senate does not have the power to "pass" the Biden bill. That would require President Bush's signature, as well (or supermajority votes of both chambers) -- and President Bush won't sign such a bill, precisely because he wants to be able to keep violating the longstanding legal prohibitions on torture and cruel treatment.

* * * *

What the Post might have written that might have made some sense: "Because Judge Mukasey and the Bush Administration do not seem to understand that the techniques they refuse to disclaim are torture and cruel treatment that are already unlawful several times over, the Senate should tell President Bush that it will confirm Judge Mukasey if and only if -- and after -- the President signs the Biden bill."

That wouldn't be a panacea -- because President Bush could always rewrite the Field Manual. (Don't put it past him.) But it would be a start. And it would make sense. Today's Washington Post editorial, however . . .

[ADDENDUM: The Post editorial is obviously motivated by a sense that Michael Mukasey is a thoughtful and serious person, with the sort of gravitas and integrity that the Department of Justice desperately needs right now. I have every reason to think that is correct -- indeed, Scott Horton has worked with him and strongly vouches for his character, to the point where Scott had been urging his confirmation. But as Scott himself notes today, the vote is no longer about Mukasey's character -- or not only about it, anyway:

    I have very strong conflicting views about the vote which is coming in the Judiciary Committee. I believe that Mukasey, as an individual, is exceptionally well qualified to serve as attorney general. I would approve the Mukasey who says he "personally" finds waterboarding abhorrent. But I am troubled by the "official" Mukasey who is being trotted out as something different. And I believe that the nation cannot, at this stage, accept the appointment of an attorney general who refuses to come clean on the torture issue. In the end this is essential to national identity, and to the promise of the Justice Department to serve as a law enforcement agency. Too much of what the Justice Department has done of late has little resemblance to law enforcement. Rather it looks to be just the opposite.

    If the Bush Administration wants to turn torture into a litmus test, so must Congress. The question therefore ultimately becomes one of principle and not personality. The Judiciary Committee should not accept any nominee who fails to provide meaningful assurance on this issue. And, though it saddens me to say this, Michael Mukasey has not.

P.S. I really, really hope that the DOJ-arranged meeting Scott describes, between Mukasey and "movement conservatives," did not actually occur -- or that, if it did, Mukasey rebuked them in the strongest possible terms. If the account is accurate, it's pretty chilling.]

Posted 3:39 AM by Marty Lederman
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2007/11/washington-post-jumps-shark.html
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BT

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2007, 01:05:16 PM »
Quote
The Washington Post today, straining to demonstrate Solomonic wisdom, urges Senators to do two things simultaneously: They should confirm Judge Mukasey and, at the same time,

Makes sense. Define what they are banning instead of adding to the lawyers full employment act. And Mukasey has not waterboarded anyone, so i'm not sure why he should not be confirmed.


Lanya

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2007, 01:32:58 PM »
<<And Mukasey has not waterboarded anyone, so i'm not sure why he should not be confirmed. >>

Well,   I can't see that's a good justification for his confirmation.   "Judge Mukasey has never ever waterboarded anyone."  That is sort of a low bar.   

Do we know this for a fact?  Has he testified to this under oath?
Anyway,  I really would like to know whether he's a big enough man to come out and say that it is torture as we have found it to be for many, many years.

  Confirm Mukasey: Because he isn't  Torquemada.     ?
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BT

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2007, 01:52:46 PM »
Are you accusing Mukasey of waterboarding?

And yeah he is entitled to his legal opinions. He is not required to pledge conformity to some star chamber edict.
He is required to enforce the laws of the land, if confirmed.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2007, 03:21:51 PM »
Mukasey doesn't have to agree that waterboarding is torture, and in a like manner, the Congress does not have to confirm him.
I suppose that they will confirm this turkey because (1) it is so near to Thanksgivinbg and (b) because after the suckup Gonzo thoroughly trashed Justice they need someone to put it back into a respectable mode.

Waterboarding is, of course torture. It seems prteey ovbbious to me that the various agencies (FBI DIA CIA, etc.) have used it far more than three times, and perhaps somewhere on Diego Garcia, or in some Egyptian dungeon, one or more 'suspects' are being waterboarded even as I write this.

Mukasey seems to be more loyal to the Administration than he is to the Constitution and the laws of the land, and I don't think I would vote to confirm his sorry ancient pale wrinkled ass.

I say pale because I suspect that this is the actuall color of his rump, even though I have not seen it, and continue to be unaware of the specific culture a 'Mukasey' might be from.
I suspect, however, that it is a culture of pale-assed people.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Richpo64

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2007, 03:28:03 PM »
You're not going to see Democrats outlaw waterboarding. They don't have the balls to take the chance. If at some point there is eminent danger to American lives they don't want to be responsible for denying the CIA a method that works.

BT

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2007, 03:43:23 PM »
Quote
They should outlaw waterboarding and send the bill on to Juniorbush, forcing him to veto it becaue he approves of torture,

We shall wait patiently for them to follow your advice.


Amianthus

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2007, 03:53:10 PM »
I say pale because I suspect that this is the actuall color of his rump, even though I have not seen it, and continue to be unaware of the specific culture a 'Mukasey' might be from.
I suspect, however, that it is a culture of pale-assed people.

Russian. His family is from what is currently Belarus.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

yellow_crane

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2007, 08:14:17 PM »
You're not going to see Democrats outlaw waterboarding. They don't have the balls to take the chance. If at some point there is eminent danger to American lives they don't want to be responsible for denying the CIA a method that works.


An interesting interview on NPR today, following two lame dissertations by Schummer and Feinstein to attempt to defend their belly-up, with an author of a new book who stated that Schummer and Feinstein crossed a line--a line they will never be able to recross.

She said that both can never again condemn torture or specifically waterboarding, since they both just signed on to its undeniable endorsement, almost eliminatiing, in her opinion, any option with which to combat the issue any time soon.

This is a huge exposure of the corruption within the Democratic Party, the same corruption which gave birth to the new Democrats sent to Washington to end the war and the K Street corruption, and, proving they are too powerful to reprimand,  in turn castrated them all somewhere in the back halls of Congress.

It was Schummer, I think, who, when the puzzled press pressed for answers regarding the unofficial defection of Joe Lieberman to the conclaves of the rapaciously vicious Hard Right, smiled and said:   "Joe is a buddy."  Throughout the day following his remark, Sens Biden, Clinton, Dodd, and others, also, when asked about Lieberman, all used the word "buddy."  You can't fool some of the people some of the time.  What they know and we don't is that the Iraqi War and K Street are one and the same, and they are not going anywhere soon.

The Democrats as a whole in Washington are not only guilty of corruption, they are guilty of complicent corruption, which makes them also guilty of conspiracy.  This is made evident in their continual mis-steps and flummoxed shadow-boxing in response to any demands made of them by their constituents--they are obviously failing with a predictability, always with the predictable incompetence they exhibit.  This incompetence which they continuously, uncomplainingly are willing to wear is really a cover for their connivance with the K Street Republicans.

Concerning the sewer, and on a scale of one to ten, the game America's strong majority desires to end is being held up by both sides.

That is how corrupt it is.


Richpo64

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2007, 08:40:41 PM »
I won't argue against the democrats being corrupt, that's obvious. they won't end the war, nor will they outlaw waterboarding. They'll jump up and down about it, but that's just for show.

As for me, I'm against torture. The rack is out. Mo thumbscrews please. No Juda Cradle. No wheel.

But if something just scares you (waterboarding), or is extremely inconvenient (sleep deprivation or exposure to cold), that's okay. If there's another way to extract desperately needed information I'm willing to consider it.

Michael Tee

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2007, 09:45:06 PM »
<<But if something just scares you (waterboarding), or is extremely inconvenient (sleep deprivation or exposure to cold), that's okay. If there's another way to extract desperately needed information I'm willing to consider it.>>

If Iran captured U.S. servicemen and began to waterboard them to learn about new weapons or tactics, or if they had undertaken training that might relate to an invasion of Iran, do you mean to say that it would be OK with you?  That if the torturers were later captured, they should NOT be charged with war crimes for waterboarding captured GIs?

BT

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2007, 10:10:05 PM »
Waterboarding is a weapon much like bullets.

And bullets are oftimes much more lethal.

What is the genava conventions stand on nerf bats?




Amianthus

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2007, 10:14:53 PM »
If Iran captured U.S. servicemen and began to waterboard them to learn about new weapons or tactics, or if they had undertaken training that might relate to an invasion of Iran, do you mean to say that it would be OK with you?  That if the torturers were later captured, they should NOT be charged with war crimes for waterboarding captured GIs?

Since our soldiers are trained to resist this type of interrogation, I don't have a problem with it.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2007, 10:25:38 PM »
<<But if something just scares you (waterboarding), or is extremely inconvenient (sleep deprivation or exposure to cold), that's okay. If there's another way to extract desperately needed information I'm willing to consider it.>>

If Iran captured U.S. servicemen and began to waterboard them to learn about new weapons or tactics, or if they had undertaken training that might relate to an invasion of Iran, do you mean to say that it would be OK with you?  That if the torturers were later captured, they should NOT be charged with war crimes for waterboarding captured GIs?


That would be a large improvement.

Lanya

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2007, 10:29:53 PM »
BT:
No, I'm not accusing Mukasey of waterboarding.  You were the one who said he'd never waterboarded anyone, and I wondered flippantly, do we know this for a fact?  No more than that.  Of course I don't think he's done anything like that.

 
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