Author Topic: Torture is already banned  (Read 2043 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2007, 08:51:10 AM »
I say pale because I suspect that this is the actuall color of his rump, even though I have not seen it, and continue to be unaware of the specific culture a 'Mukasey' might be from.
I suspect, however, that it is a culture of pale-assed people.

Russian. His family is from what is currently Belarus.
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My gut feelings were correct, thyen, Few asses are as pale as White Russian asses. They probably will turn red when exposed to extreme cold, aqs do Red Russian buns.

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Since our soldiers are trained to resist this type of interrogation, I don't have a problem with it.

I don't believe that anyone can resist this type of interrogation. The CIA claims that when their guys have been tested with waterboardig, the average can hold out 14 seconds.

There was some high CIA Muckymuck named Buckley who was captured in Lebanon, and the Hezbollah or whomever it was interrogated him and got the names of nearly every agent and officer in the area, and probably the names of every scout in his son's scout troop and the secret name he gave his hemherroids as well, and he was supposedly some sort of high;ly trained expert. So excuse me, but I don't believe you.

Our troops are not going to be able to resis this any more than your average Abdullah on the Street.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2007, 10:40:17 AM »
The CIA claims that when their guys have been tested with waterboardig, the average can hold out 14 seconds.

I can hold my breath for far longer than that.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Richpo64

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2007, 01:27:55 PM »
>>If Iran captured U.S. servicemen and began to waterboard them to learn about new weapons or tactics, or if they had undertaken training that might relate to an invasion of Iran, do you mean to say that it would be OK with you?<<

Rather than do what they do now? Yes.

>>"That if the torturers were later captured, they should NOT be charged with war crimes for waterboarding captured GIs?"<<

Considering that we do it, I doubt they would be charged.

Lanya

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2007, 01:51:27 PM »
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/10/31/2007-10-31_i_know_waterboarding_is_torture__because.html

 I know waterboarding is torture - because I did it myself

By MALCOLM NANCE

Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 10:52 PM

   Last week, attorney general nominee Judge Michael Mukasey dodged the question of whether waterboarding terror suspects is necessarily torture. Americans can disagree as to whether or not this should disqualify him for the top job in the Justice Department. But they should be under no illusions about what waterboarding is.

As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, I know the waterboard personally and intimately. Our staff was required to undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception.

I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school's interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques employed by the Army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What is less frequently reported is that our training was designed to show how an evil totalitarian enemy would use torture at the slightest whim.

Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it.

In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.

Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.


How much of this the victim is to endure depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim's face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs that show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia - meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells.

The lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threatened with its use again and again. Call it "Chinese water torture," "the barrel," or "the waterfall." It is all the same.

One has to overcome basic human decency to endure causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you questioning the meaning of what it is to be an American.

Is there a place for the waterboard? Yes. It must go back to the realm of training our operatives, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines - to prepare for its uncontrolled use by our future enemies. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of Americans may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora's box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name ofprotecting America.

Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured.

Our own missteps have already created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda's own virtual school for terrorists.

I agree with Sen. John McCain. Waterboarding should never be used as an interrogation tool. It is beneath our values.

Nance is a counterterrorism consultant for the government's special operations, homeland security and intelligence agencies. A longer version of this essay appeared on www.smallwarsjournal.com/blog.
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BT

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2007, 02:14:48 PM »
I think it was Sean Connery in the Untouchables who said never bring a knife to a gunfight.

And yet apparently, Malcolm Nance is advocating just that.

Let's review:

According to ABC waterboarding has been used 3 times on suspected terrorists. And it hasn't been used in the past couple years.

According to Nance it is part of standard training to subject military personnel to the technique so they can be prepared if captured. I suspect this is much like the training we had back in the day with gas masks and tear gas.

So apparently if anyone is being waterboarded it is our own guys. And they all seem to have survived, including Nance.

I suspect this is a political issue more than some high minded humanitarian plea.




sirs

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2007, 02:22:31 PM »
Lanya, with all due medical respect, if the lungs actually fill with water, the person would either
a) ACTUALLY drown
or
b) severe aspiration with significant lung damage.

Care to show us that that's what's happening with "waterboarding" as per the 3x the CIa apparently did it??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2007, 02:35:04 PM »

The CIA claims that when their guys have been tested with waterboardig, the average can hold out 14 seconds.


Ami sez:  I can hold my breath for far longer than that.

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Not if you are being tickled by someone schooled in the Art of Kitchi-Koo.

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If you get some water in your lungs, the reaction is to cough uncontrollably. If someone is pouiring more water over you, that would be most unpleasant.


Waterboarding is torture. Mukasey knows this. He is just not going to say so, because he knows that it is a matter of weeks before, as AG, he will be asked to prosecute some waterboarders. or at least to ban the practice.



"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2007, 03:39:19 PM »
If you get some water in your lungs, the reaction is to cough uncontrollably. If someone is pouiring more water over you, that would be most unpleasant.

It's SUPPOSED to be "unpleasant", but what I'm asking for is documentation of the severe lung damage that would be occuring IF the lungs were filling with water, as Lanya's op-edster was claiming.  She's an RT for goodness sake    :-\


Waterboarding is torture.

Thank you for that opinion.  Looking forward then to the Democrat led Congress to offcially make that specific legislative designation, and to apply it so that no agency run by the U.S. is to perform it (as if 3 times by the CIA was rampant useage of the technique).  Currently it apparently isn't.


 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 03:51:36 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Torture is already banned
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2007, 03:48:05 PM »
Gettng shot can hurt a lot .
Will limits on hurting persons ever forbid shooting the enemy?

Is waterboardng so dreadfull and commonly used that our enemys will start refuseing to surrender to us?