The bible as a book - Your thoughts?

[Seamus]

Who here believes the bible exists?  (Me.  It's in your local bookstore and motel 6.)

Who believes it's fiction?  Who believes it's fact?

How has it been translated?

Is it the LITERAL speaking of the Christian God?

Why are there so many versions?

How does it differ from, say, the Torah, Koran, Book of Mormon... ?

Thanks

[Xavier_Onassis]

Who here believes the bible exists?  (Me.  It's in your local bookstore and motel 6.)
I believe it exists, of course. I have several copies of various translations at home.


Who believes it's fiction?  Who believes it's fact?
I think that the various people whowrote the Bible did not write it as fiction. They felt that they were either writing fact, or that what they wrote would further the faith. But there are numerous places where one part of the Bible contradicts another part, where there is no secondary description of an event (for example, the Egyptians kept records that are beyond extensive about events that occurred, and yet there is not one mention of the Moses story, the plagues visited upon them by Moses, nor of the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt. It could well be unintenional fiction, a series of tales like urban legends that everyone has come to believe. The Book of Job sounds like a theological urban legend to me.

Another example, there is no Roman record of King Herod ever ordering the killing of all baby boys in Palestine, nor of people being summoned to their home town to pay their taxes. If you were a Roman, why would you not just tax everyone wherever they were? Why would you require them to travel and spend money on camel and donkeyfood and lodging, when you could squeeze a tad more out of them.

Consider the son=sequent=ces of the IRS requiring all of us to return to our birthplaces just to tax us. Do you think that this might make us like the Romans more? I tend to think not. We would think that they were evil and stupid instead of just evil.
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How has it been translated?
It has been translated both poorly and well to many, many languages.

Is it the LITERAL speaking of the Christian God?
I don't think so. I disbelieve in much, if not most of the Book of Revelation, what with the women barfing blood and such. Yeccch.
============================
Why are there so many versions?
People disagree on what belongs in the Bible and what doesn't. Translations differ, quite often due to specific beliefs.

I have read the whole thing, but not recently. Some parts are good history, others a good look into ancent Hebrew anthropology. There is rather a lot of weird stuff, like Ezequiel being commanded to eat cakes made of cow dung, and for lesser Hebrews to make cakes made from their own crap. It does not mention that this was actually done, or how many crapcakes were actually ingested. This is in Ezequiel, Book 10.

Much of the Bible is written in extremly turgid prose. It is hard to decypher what it means. I like Isaac Azimov's commentary better than others. He is clearer and is unbiased and amusing to read.

Major Christian beliefs , notably the Holy Trinity, are unmentioned in even remotely specific terms in the New Testament. I would think that if God thought we should believe that there are three of him, he would have been a tad more insistent on this point.

There should be, in my opinion, a Book of Jesus. Jesus failed to write even one word about his life, which is the main focus of Christianity, and left the telling of his tale to four dudes who were not really up to the task, again in my opinion. We really oughta know what Jesus was up to between the ages of 12 and 32. Buddha, Muhammad and Lao T'si were all more forthcoming, and none of them claimed to be God.


==============================================

How does it differ from, say, the Torah, Koran, Book of Mormon... ?
The Torah is much shorter, but usually is printed with extensive explicatory passages as to the meaning. The commentaries on the Torah are at least as important to today's Jews as the original text, from what I have read.

The Koran is written in verse, in Arabic, and is organized from the shortest verse (sura) to the longest. When translated to English, much of it sounds like drivel. Perhaps is sounds better in Arabic, when it rhymes. Muslims say that it is such beautiful prose that it HAS to be divine, as Muhammad was only an illiterate camel jockey and could never have had the personal talent to compose something so beautiful. He dictated it to literate friends, they say. I have tried to read it, in the translation of Muhammad Marmeduke Pickerel, and have found it incoherent and vague. Read it sometime, it might strike you as more impressive.


The Book of Mormom is essentially a sleeping pill in book form. I DEFY anyone to read more than fifty pages and remain awake. I DOUBLE-DOG DARE you to do this. I believe it to be impossible. But again, it just didn't rock my boat, pull my chain or paddle my canoe. Your results might differ.

I know that Mrs God (God is married, you know) is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. I even found the passage once, but have not been able to find it again since. Perhaps with greater dedication and about twenty pounds of Bustelo Extra Poderoso Cafe Expresso someone might attain this feat. Not me, I have given up. I am probably already baptised in the Mormon faith even though I don't know this. If not, I suspect that after death, I shall be baptised and 'sealed' into the LDS Church by some pious missionary of the deceased.

Though God told Joseph Smith and Bigamy Young that they could marry as many women as they wished, (and they seem to have done this) God is apparently monagamous. Divine nookie might well be, well, so divine as to not require R & R or multiple partners. But I am only speculating on this.

[Richpo64]

The Bible isn't the sole rule of faith and doesn't claim to be.

[Michael Tee]

<<Who here believes the bible exists?  (Me.  It's in your local bookstore and motel 6.)>>
Yeah, I think it's pretty much a given that the Bible exists.

<<Who believes it's fiction?  Who believes it's fact?>>
I believe the Old Testament is a mixture of fact and fiction.  Mostly fiction, but in many cases, superb story-telling.  Great fiction.  The Moses story is pure fiction, apparently.  Someone recently unearthed the official archives of Egypt for a 600-year period during which the Exodus had to have occurred, and there was no mention at all of Hebrews, nothing about Hebrew slaves, departure of Hebrew slaves, etc.  The destruction of the Temple and the Babylonian exile are semi-true - - a lot of intellectuals and brain-workers chose to go to Babylon, which was a magnet in its day like New York is today.  And I guess the Temple really was destroyed.

I believe the New Testament is pure bullshit.  It's actually blasphemous to suggest that God had a son, let alone that he supposedly fathered this son through a woman.  To me it's either some kind of a miracle every day that there isn't some form of divine outrage expressed through lightning bolts hitting preachers or else maybe it's proof that God doesn't really exist anyway, or even proof that God exists and He or She just doesn't give a shit.  Take your pick, bottom line is that nobody is ever gonna know.

<<How has it been translated?>>

We're Jewish and we don't use a translation, the Bible is read in the original Hebrew.  Lots of editions have English translations on the facing page with all kinds of footnotes.  Sometimes they credit "others" (usually the King James English translations) with variant translations if the variant is well-known generally, for example a "soft murmuring" heard as the voice of God by one of the Prophets also credits the "still small voice" version of the King James translators. 

My understanding of the King James version is that it was done by a committee of Biblical scholars in the reign of James I under royal patronage.  There is an old joke about this Canadian farmer, obviously a Bible reader, who was asked by a reporter what he thought of bilingualism, and the farmer said, "Bilingualism, ya mean like printing the labels on the Corn Flakes boxes in English AND French both?" and the reporter says, "Yes, that's bilingualism," and the farmer says, "Well I'll tell ya.  If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, then it's good enough for me."

<<Is it the LITERAL speaking of the Christian God?>>

LOL.

<<Why are there so many versions?>>
XO nailed that one.  Different people believe some parts should or shouldn't be there.  Also, stylistically.  The King James version sounds pretty archaic to a lot of folks.  Back in the 1960s, somebody wanted a Bible that would appeal to young people, so the Good News Bible came out - - it's pretty much the KJ version, but in more modern English.  Also the writers claim to have corrected some of the translation errors found in the KJ version.  There's also an RCC version.

<<How does it differ from, say, the Torah, Koran, Book of Mormon... ?>>

Torah is just the Old Testament in the original Hebrew.  The Talmud is a commentary on the Torah, also in Hebrew, and I think maybe partly in Aramaic.  The Koran is very poetic (so is the Torah) but it starts off with some very striking descriptions of the natural world, which I thought was some of the most moving literature I had ever read.  Unfortunately, I never got very far into the Koran.  It started to get repetitive and boring, so I just quit.  Book of Mormon I never looked at.

If those three dots represent other so-called sacred literature, I can comment on two:  Bhagavad Gita is a Hindu text of man's place and duty to the world, and in the Juan Mascaro translation, available in Penguin Paperback, it's one of the greatest spiritual works I've ever read.  It starts off just before a great battle between two armies and one of the generals suddenly realizes that just as his own army is made up of fathers, sons, teachers, philosphers, etc., so is the other army, so what the f--k are they fighting for anyway?  He wants to quit but his adviser and charioteer (who is really God in disguise) tells him that he has a duty to fight and he will bring shame on himself and his family if he just quits.  He is told to "prepare for war with peace in your heart" because you can't really kill the other side anyway (they're all gonna be reincarnated sooner or later) but it's bad to harbour hatred in your heart for anyone, even the enemy you are going to have to fight.  The whole of the Gita is just the extended conversation between Krishna and Arjuna, sort of an extended Q & A about life and God.

The Dhammapada, also in Penguin Paperback and also translated by Juan Mascaro, is a classic Buddhist text and contains many interesting and worthwhile sayings of the Buddha.  One for example is to thank the man who points out your faults to you as if he had just shown you the map to a great buried treasure.  It's basically a series of quotes about the spiritual life, very readable because the quotes are all mostly just little sound-bites.  The Bible and the Koran are much harder to read because they contain long stories, complex and largely senseless laws, etc.

There is a third book that I forgot to mention when I started writing this post, and that is The Book of Strangers by Ian Dallas, really a pseudo-autobiographical account of a mysterious disappearance and a journey to solve the mystery.  It's really an account of a man's journey into Sufism, a belief system that began in Islamic roots but became more universal over time, although It's still probably basically Islamic at heart.  It's very easy reading because of its being formatted as an adventurous journey.  The only cautionary word I would provide is this:  At the very beginning of the book, there are three or four pages that seem to be about the preparations for a caravan or other long journey in China sometime in the Middle Ages.  It doesn't seem to have much to do with anything, particularly the story line, which is set in modern times, originally in a great University library.  So the Chinese part seems easy to skip for a variety of reasons, but you shouldn't skip those three or four pages.  In fact, I'd read 'em two or three times, just to ensure a proper understanding, because they are key to the theme of the book.

<<Thanks>>

You're welcome.  I hope some of this was helpful.

[Seamus]

<<Is it the LITERAL speaking of the Christian God?>>

LOL.

Well, it's my understanding that some believe that this has been divinely brought down and divinely translated so that it still speaks for God.  I was wondering if this was still thought true by some.

<<How does it differ from, say, the Torah, Koran, Book of Mormon... ?>>

If those three dots represent other so-called sacred literature, I can comment on two

Yes...  I don't know all the religious reference books, but I want to know how the bible looks (or doesn't) next to the other faiths books.

Bhagavad Gita is a Hindu text of man's place and duty to the world, and in the Juan Mascaro translation, available in Penguin Paperback, it's one of the greatest spiritual works I've ever read.  It starts off just before a great battle between two armies and one of the generals suddenly realizes that just as his own army is made up of fathers, sons, teachers, philosphers, etc., so is the other army, so what the f--k are they fighting for anyway?  He wants to quit but his adviser and charioteer (who is really God in disguise) tells him that he has a duty to fight and he will bring shame on himself and his family if he just quits.  He is told to "prepare for war with peace in your heart" because you can't really kill the other side anyway (they're all gonna be reincarnated sooner or later) but it's bad to harbour hatred in your heart for anyone, even the enemy you are going to have to fight.  The whole of the Gita is just the extended conversation between Krishna and Arjuna, sort of an extended Q & A about life and God.

The Dhammapada, also in Penguin Paperback and also translated by Juan Mascaro, is a classic Buddhist text and contains many interesting and worthwhile sayings of the Buddha.  One for example is to thank the man who points out your faults to you as if he had just shown you the map to a great buried treasure.  It's basically a series of quotes about the spiritual life, very readable because the quotes are all mostly just little sound-bites.  The Bible and the Koran are much harder to read because they contain long stories, complex and largely senseless laws, etc.

These sounds interesting...  I may want to peruse them at some time!

<<Thanks>>

You're welcome.  I hope some of this was helpful.

You were!  I was unaware of those other books!  I was made aware recently that the Torah is literally in the same language it was written in long ago, and it's meanings and the language has been passed down, rather than it trying to be translated into contemporary languages.  I think that's fascinating also...

[Xavier_Onassis]

The Torah, as I understand it, is not the entire Old Testament, but just a part of it.

I have dabbled in Tibetan Buddhism and a bit in Zen, but was unaware of the Dhammapanda, which sounds like it is worth a read, as perhaps the Book of Strangers. Thanks for recommending these.

Reincarnation seems to make a tad more sense than the old heaven and hell bit I learned about in Sunday school. Modern physics has shown us that matter is indestructible, and can take the form of either energy or matter. This seems analogous to body and soul if you think about it a bit. If the goal is perfection (and I can't think of a better goal than perfection, logically), then it is not likely that we can attain this in a single life. Which means that either perfection is NOT a goal, or we should be given time to achieve it, which suggests reincarnation.

The Christian concept of Heaven, wherein one lives a good life, is granted access to Heaven only thru diving grace, and then is rewarded by spending eternity singing in the bloody Choir Celestial seems to lack even elementary logical thought as well as scriptural affirmation of the sort it would need to be convincing.

T'aoism (pronounced Dowism) or The Way, is a series of very logical thoughts from Chinese culture, and seems to make perfect sense, though it takes no stand on immortality. There are suggsetions on how to make sense of a seemingly chaotic world by use of the Book of Changes, or I Ching. I have read quite a bit about the T'ao, and have found nothing but sound advice, although I question that one can divine the future by using the i Ching.

I think Jainism is worth an examination, as is Baha'ism.

Perhaps the least worthy of study for finding the way in life  seem to be Druses and Farsi. If one is not born into them, even their adherents don't
recommend conversion.

[Amianthus]

The Torah, as I understand it, is not the entire Old Testament, but just a part of it.

The Torah ("Five Books of Moses") are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

[Michael Tee]

<<The Torah ("Five Books of Moses") are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.>>

 I knew the Torah was five books, but I thought that's what the Old Testament was too.  So there's more than five books in the OT?

<<Reincarnation seems to make a tad more sense than the old heaven and hell bit I learned about in Sunday school. Modern physics has shown us that matter is indestructible, and can take the form of either energy or matter. This seems analogous to body and soul if you think about it a bit. If the goal is perfection (and I can't think of a better goal than perfection, logically), then it is not likely that we can attain this in a single life. Which means that either perfection is NOT a goal, or we should be given time to achieve it, which suggests reincarnation.>>

You'd probably like Schopenhauer's Theory of Eternal Recurrences.  Schopenhauer figured that since the amount of matter in the universe was finite and time was infinite, eventually every possible combination of  matter would occur, including the precise configuration of matter making up our present world.  Of course every successful recombination would take aeons, but when the material elements of today's world finally recombined, the poor schmucks that got recreated after all of those aeons wouldn't have a clue that they were going through the same old shit for the n^th millionth time.

<<I have dabbled in Tibetan Buddhism and a bit in Zen, but was unaware of the Dhammapanda, which sounds like it is worth a read, as perhaps the Book of Strangers. Thanks for recommending these.>>

You're very welcome.  If you've dabbled in Tibetan Buddhism, you probably read Evans-Wentz' The Tibetan Book of the Dead and the two other volumes (I forget the names) that went with it.  That book was a huge influence on me in the 70's.  It was when I first realized that involuntary reincarnation was a kind of curse, to be avoided - - way better to remain a disembodied spirit, which you could only accomplish by conquering the terror of the void.  I also learned about the Universal Mind, or universal consciousness.

One summer - - the summer when I was reading Evans-Wentz - -  I used to go every day to this huge public swimming pool not far from my office.  I was keeping Spanish or Southern Italian business hours, or trying to.  Four-hour siestas seemed normal and reasonable to me, at least in the summer.   I noticed every day two really attractive young women in bikinis who always seemed to be together with an elderly, white-bearded gentleman and a good-looking, smallish young guy in blue-and-white striped trunks.  The blonde in a yellow bikini, the brunette in blue.  I really would have liked to be included in their group.

The pool was relatively empty when I got there around 11:00, and I liked to swim lengths then, usually to the point of exhaustion.  It was really ice-cold as well, so when I hauled myself out, I loved to stretch out on my back and dry off in the hot sun.  This one day, I was trying to connect with the Universal Mind, of which I, the sun, the water, the two babes in the bikinis, etc. were all just manifestations.  So I relaxed with the sun shining through my closed eyelids, deeply at rest, and trying to merge my puny Western monkey-brain with the great Universal Mind underneath it all.  If my mind was an emanation of the Universal Mind, so too were the minds of those two babes now sunning themselves with the Good Doctor (the old guy turned out to be a shrink and a Holocaust survivor) on the concrete deck near the deep end of the pool (I was on the same side of the pool as they, but half-way between the deep and the shallow ends.)  If the Universal Mind knew that I wanted to be included in that tight little group, someone in the group would know that from the Universal Mind.  I was just so totally relaxed.  Almost asleep.  And then suddenly an unmistakeable order:  "Walk to the side of the pool, dive in and swim across."  At the other side of the pool, I turned around, facing the side from which I had just swum over, propped my elbows on the concrete deck at my back and rested on them, turning my face up to the sun.  About ten or fifteen seconds later, I saw the brunette detach herself from the little group, walk over to the side of the pool, dive in and swim half-way down the length of the pool,then cross right over to me.  She said hi, then that she had seen me come every day to the pool, would I like to join her and her friends?

That was a really wonderful summer for me.  The girls, the shrink and the young man (he was a lawyer and an aspiring actor) were all a nice part of it.  There's no doubt at all in my mind that there are many things in life that are yours for the asking, but that very few people know how to ask.  Or even what to ask for.

That was the good side of Tibetan Buddhism.  But then as I got into it a little more, there was a scary side too.  At the end of the day, I wasn't sure where the benefits were really coming from.  I had a lot to be thankful for without asking the Universal Mind for anything and I didn't want to fuck up anything I already had.  Basically, if the Jews were right and we already had a God, He would very likely be a jealous God and I didn't want to get on His bad side.  I thought back to past occasions when I had dodged a few bullets and either I had a horseshoe up my ass or somebody was really taking good care of me.  That somebody didn't sound like the Universal Mind, which doesn't really give a shit whether anyone lives or dies.  So I basically said adieu to the Universal Mind and became what I am today, an atheist who looks over his shoulder and doesn't want to piss off anyone who's put up with me so far.

[Amianthus]

I knew the Torah was five books, but I thought that's what the Old Testament was too.  So there's more than five books in the OT?

According to Wikipedia:

Books of the Old Testament

Hebrew Bible or Tanakh
Common to Judaism
and Christianity

    * Genesis
    * Exodus
    * Leviticus
    * Numbers
    * Deuteronomy
    * Joshua (Jesus Nave)
    * Judges
    * Ruth
    * 1?2 Samuel
    * 1?2 Kings
    * 1?2 Chronicles
    * Ezra (see Esdras for other names)
    * Nehemiah
    * Esther
    * Job
    * Psalms
    * Proverbs
    * Ecclesiastes
    * Song of Songs
    * Isaiah
    * Jeremiah
    * Lamentations
    * Ezekiel
    * Daniel
    * Minor prophets

Included by Orthodox and Roman Catholics, but excluded by Jews, Protestants, and other Christian denominations:

    * Tobit
    * Judith
    * 1 Maccabees
    * 2 Maccabees
    * Wisdom (of Solomon)
    * Ben Sira
    * Baruch, includes Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah)
    * Additions to Daniel
    * Additions to Esther

Included by Orthodox (Synod of Jerusalem):

    * 1 Esdras (see Esdras for other names)
    * 3 Maccabees
    * 4 Maccabees (in appendix but not canonical)
    * Prayer of Manasseh
    * Psalm 151

Included by Russian and Ethiopian Orthodox:

    * 2 Esdras

Included by Ethiopian Orthodox:

    * Jubilees
    * Enoch
    * 1?3 Meqabyan
    * 4 Baruch

Included by Syriac Peshitta Bible:

    * Psalms 152?155
    * 2 Baruch

[The_Professor]

Who here believes the bible exists?  (Me.  It's in your local bookstore and motel 6.)

Who believes it's fiction?  Who believes it's fact?

How has it been translated?

Is it the LITERAL speaking of the Christian God?

Why are there so many versions?

How does it differ from, say, the Torah, Koran, Book of Mormon... ?

Thanks

I see this as a matter of Faith. This is why so any Christian theologians fail in debates with intelligent secularists.

Who here believes the bible exists?  I do.

Who believes it's fiction?  Who believes it's fact? Fact, all of it.

How has it been translated? By many people over the years.

Is it the LITERAL speaking of the Christian God? Yes.

Why are there so many versions? People, people, people.

How does it differ from, say, the Torah, Koran, Book of Mormon... ? I have read the Torah in English (similar to the Old Testament in my opinion in many respects). I have read the Koran a couple of times. Didn't find it all that interesting for a variety of reasons. Seems to speak in oxymoron terms sometimes, for example. Espouses violence quite alot as well. I did, XO, get through the Book of Mormon. And, yes, I found it pretty boring many times. But, it was also interesting in all that storymaking about Jesus coming to America and the white and red tribes, etc. I don;t believe it is sacred, only because I do not "buy into" the Mormon theology, even though I have worked for and around Mormons many many times and have found them to be the most upright and moral and decent folks I have ever met. Certainly good examples for their faith. I have also, over the years, read some works on Buddhism, Shitoism and the like.

The way I see it is that there is a lot of wisdom in many of these works. You really can look into any of them and find revealing insight. So, again, doesn't it all come down to Faith?

[Xavier_Onassis]

For all I know, the Book of Mormon is sacred.
But it is also very, very boring.
Then again, Deuteronomy and Leviticus are hardly stimulating, either.

When you say the Bible is LITERAL, you have to mean that there is some interpretation required.

Jesus himself told parables. There was not necessarily a real Good Samaritan: his point was that even someone from the  most despised sect could do good works, while others who were blessed with high status, could be real jerks.

I don't think that we should have a problem with a theoreticall Samaritan.

It is pretty obvious that the world is a lot older than all the generations in the 'begats' of the Bible. There were no humans at all for the first several billion years.

[The_Professor]

And I think people get too worked over some of these issues. I mean, if you get to the point of shouting over some of these theological issues, I wonder if you are losing perspective. Some Believe, some don't and the various gray areas in-between. Polarization of thought is not limited to the political theatre, is it?

[Brassmask]

The bible is no more true than The Da Vinci Code.

Both are works of fiction based in real world events, facts, beliefs and perceptions.  Both have entertainment and historical value.

[Seamus]

And I think people get too worked over some of these issues. I mean, if you get to the point of shouting over some of these theological issues, I wonder if you are losing perspective. Some Believe, some don't and the various gray areas in-between. Polarization of thought is not limited to the political theatre, is it?

Well, the bible is kind of a point of contention within myself.  I am prone to believe along typical Christian lines.  I tend to believe in a singular god, and when stressed I usually pray to a "him" as taught in the Christian Church.  The quandary begins when I make the decision for myself that the Bible, while a good source of parables, is not law.  It is not the word of god.  It is a compilation of a lot of writings that were subsequentially translated, sometimes multiple times.  I don't think it's something to be swearing on, and I don't believe that the world is the same as the time the parts of the book were written. So, if I am not going to believe that the bible is the truth, how then can I believe in a God that comes from this book?  THIS is kind of where my questions re: the Bible come from.  For the most part, I simply chalk up my faith to brainwashing as a child.  I've been taught to pray. I've been taught that there is a guy in flowing robes up in the sky that will judge me when I die.  But really...  Other than the stories from the bible...  what else do we have to support this philosophy?

Any thoughts along these lines?

[The_Professor]

And I think people get too worked over some of these issues. I mean, if you get to the point of shouting over some of these theological issues, I wonder if you are losing perspective. Some Believe, some don't and the various gray areas in-between. Polarization of thought is not limited to the political theatre, is it?

Well, the bible is kind of a point of contention within myself.  I am prone to believe along typical Christian lines.  I tend to believe in a singular god, and when stressed I usually pray to a "him" as taught in the Christian Church.  The quandary begins when I make the decision for myself that the Bible, while a good source of parables, is not law.  It is not the word of god.  It is a compilation of a lot of writings that were subsequentially translated, sometimes multiple times.  I don't think it's something to be swearing on, and I don't believe that the world is the same as the time the parts of the book were written. So, if I am not going to believe that the bible is the truth, how then can I believe in a God that comes from this book?  THIS is kind of where my questions re: the Bible come from.  For the most part, I simply chalk up my faith to brainwashing as a child.  I've been taught to pray. I've been taught that there is a guy in flowing robes up in the sky that will judge me when I die.  But really...  Other than the stories from the bible...  what else do we have to support this philosophy?

Any thoughts along these lines?

Perhaps seeing a few miracles, large or small, might prove the existence of God to you? It cannot be a reason issue, only a Faith one. Sometimes, it is amazing to me that people can accept so many things that exist without seeing them like breathable air and yet believing in inspirational issues is so difficult. It is probably because we resort to reason over Faith. Certainly understandable, by the way. Man wants ot beleive he is top of the hill, the Big Kahuna.