not a chance

[Christians4LessGvt]

we will be able to co-exist with this?

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1598.htm

[Michael Tee]

Why not?  Didn't you co-exist with the U.S.S.R. after Khruschev said they would bury you?

Why do you people whine so much about crazy leaders of splinter sects who don't have one ten-thousandth of your military power? 

Oh, I know, it's so you can pretend they're a real threat, so you can invade their homelands and steal their oil.

[Xavier_Onassis]

THe doctrine of the Holy Mother Church was pretty much the same. In 1500-1600, Spain was the richest nation on the planet, with all the wealth of the Americas, and controlled Spain, Portugal, Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands, Belgium and much of France and Italy.  They fought the Turks, the British and the French for a century in an effort to establish the Church and the Inquisition everywhere.

They failed miserably and bankrupted themselves.

These Muslims have no serious military ability, even with oil money (which they can only get from non-Muslims) they are poor beggars.

So OF FRIGGING COURSE we can coexist with this situation. They will fail miserably, because they are trying to reestablish a XIII century state in a
world where technology, of which they know less than nothing, rules. Their cause is hopeless and doomed.

Indonesia, which is 80% Muslim, has not managed to declare Sharia law. There are stilll idol-worshippers galore in Indonesia.  Theologically, this guy makes all the sense in the world: Islam is rule by Allah, not the people. But the problem is that Allah makes no appearances, just like Jesus, he makes no house calls. Those who claim to be following his orders disagree with each other, which would not logically be the case if Allah gave them all the same marching orders.

This guy is old and will die soon, He was no threat when he was 20, and is even less a threat now. His cause will die, because it is doomed. Allah is not on his side, Allah is mute, just like Jesus was mute when the Spanish needed him to conquer England in 1588.

This is not a war. There is nothing worth any Americans dying for other than a few cops defending us against mad bombers.

I say poo-poo to all you silly alarmists.

Electing a dolt like Giulani will only result in more of our rights being taken away and more useless wars in the wrong places, like Asia.
Giulani and his Neocons need to be trounced and thrown on the ashheap of history, along with asshole mullahs.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"THe doctrine of the Holy Mother Church was pretty much the same. In 1500-1600"

The problem is it's not 1500, it's 2007.
Islamist are trying to overthrow regimes all over the world.
The already have one in Iran and look at all the problems even one causes.
Just think how much of a bigger problem it could be if they manage to
set up Islamic theocracies in several more countries and they get nukes.
Why allow that to happen?


(The Religion of Peace is unraveling Pakistan)

[Xavier_Onassis]

Islamist are trying to overthrow regimes all over the world.
The already have one in Iran and look at all the problems even one causes.
Just think how much of a bigger problem it could be if they manage to
set up Islamic theocracies in several more countries and they get nukes.
Why allow that to happen?

But they aren't actually doing this.
Iran is onl;y causing the Juniorbushies to run around in ever-diminishing circles like beheaded chickens.
Iran has done you no harm. About all it has done is to help Hezbollah get the Israelis out of Lebanon, where they did not belong in ther first place.

Iran is not an Islamic theocracy. That would be Saudi Arabia.

Oposing Islam will cause them to become martyrs, which will make it easier for them to establish themselves.

Had the US not supported the Shah, there would have been no Ayatollah replacing him.

It is 2007. The time for religious theocracies is over. If the US were to restablish relations with Iran, the structure of the Iranian goverment woukd change much faster.

You are a nervous nelly and resaemble the aforementioned headless poultry.

[Henny]

(The Religion of Peace is unraveling Pakistan)

No, Islam is NOT unraveling Pakistan. You would have to study Pakistani history to understand that.

[Michael Tee]

<<Islamist are trying to overthrow regimes all over the world.>>

Huh??  WHERE "all over the world?" 

The only regime the Islamists helped to overthrow was the Shah of Iran's, which was itself established by the CIA after it overthrew the legitimate, democratically-elected government of Iran.

The Islamists won the Palestinian elections fair and square, "democratically," ever since which the U.S. and Israel have been trying to overthrow THEM.

Oh, yeah, they also assassinated the dictator of Egypt but the dictatorship stayed firmly in control, thanks to its U.S. backing and the $3 billion or so in annual aid from the great lover of democracy, the U.S.A.

This pretence that the U.S.A. is promoting "democracy" in the Middle East is starting to look pretty farcical to me and probably to a lot of other people too, althogh the "free" MSM is still doing its best to promote this kind of BS to anyone dumb enough to lap it up.

[Christians4LessGvt]

re:"Huh??  WHERE "all over the world?"

Have you not read their writings, heard their speeches?
They are quite clear about their objectives.
It's really no secret.
I guess it may be best to start with the article below since it is in the headlines today.
But besides Somalia places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Morocco, Lebanon, Jordan, Kashmir,
and the list goes on and on.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow
the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledg-ment of superiority
and they are in a state of subjection." Qur'an, Sura 9:29



Corpses litter Mogadishu after battles
By Aweys Yusuf in Mogadishu | November 10, 2007

CORPSES lay on Mogadishu streets as Ethiopian forces backed by tanks and artillery fought Islamist-led insurgents in a new round of fighting that has killed more than 40 people in two days.

Residents said the death toll included eight civilians who died on Friday when an Ethiopian mortar bomb blew up in the sprawling Bakara Market, littering the area with body parts.

Twelve more bodies, including two women, lay in an insurgent stronghold in the north of the city -- a district where rebels dragged dead Ethiopian soldiers along the roads on Thursday.

"Some of the dead civilians were identified by relatives," Mohammed Abdullahi, a resident of the Sqa Holaha neighbourhood, said.

"Some are still lying here."

In a move likely to dismay the interim government as it and its Ethiopian allies battle the rebels, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said on Thursday that sending UN peacekeepers to Somalia was neither realistic nor viable.

Insecurity had prevented the world body from even sending a technical assessment team, he said.

The Somali administration has long called for UN troops to help it stamp its authority on the Horn of Africa country. It is the 14th attempt to forge central rule in Somalia, which has been in chaos since 1991 when warlords ousted a dictator.

With Ethiopian support, the government chased hardline Islamists out of the capital at the start of this year, but has since faced an Iraq-style rebellion.

In the latest fighting, Ethiopian infantry and tanks pounded insurgent positions in the city, while the rebels responded with automatic gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades.

Shabelle, an independent local broadcaster, quoted residents accusing the Ethiopians of indiscriminately shelling some of the city's most densely populated areas. It said at least 43 bodies were found on Friday in areas that were hit hard on Thursday.

The United Nations said 114,000 more Somalis had been displaced by fighting in the last week, bringing to 850,000 the number of internal refugees across the nation.

"Somalia is facing one of the worst humanitarian crises in years and coping mechanisms of the population are stretched to the limit," the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) said in a statement released in Nairobi.

It condemned the dragging of corpses through the streets of Mogadishu this week: "These gross violations of humanitarian law as well as barbaric and inhuman acts have triggered new panic and movements of population."

And UN OCHA also warned that 10,000 severely malnourished children in Lower Shabelle were "at risk of death" without "desperately needed massive intervention."

In a bid to stem the violence, the African Union agreed this year to deploy 8000 troops to replace the Ethiopians in Somalia. But so far only 1600 Ugandan soldiers have arrived.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's conclusion that it was unrealistic to send UN peacekeepers angered Mogadishu's dominant Hawiye clan, many of whose members resent the presence of their old enemy Ethiopia.

"We accuse human rights organisations and the United Nations of keeping silent about the massacres the Ethiopians are committing," Hawiye elder Mohammed Hassan Haad said.

"We are unhappy with their decision not to send troops to Somalia, just when our country needs most".

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22734490-12377,00.html

[Michael Tee]

I'm a little confused why you would cite a report on the depredations of the Ethiopian Army in Somalia as evidence of the "Islamofascists" stated intention of overthrowing governments all over the world.

You do realize, don't you, that Ethiopia is a Christian country, that its army INVADED Somalia and overthrew the Somali (Islamist) government, and it wasn't the other way round?

So now we have examples of Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia (three Muslim nations) all being invaded recently by Christian armies which overthrew their governments.  Earlier examples in the region have British armies invading Iraq, Iran, Egypt, the Sudan, Palestine and  Jordan, French armies invading Syria and Lebanon, Algeria and Morocco and Italian armies invading Libya, all the invaded countries being Muslim and all the invading armies being Christian.

So my question is, where on earth do you get the crazy idea that it is Muslims who are trying to invade other countries and establish Muslim regimes there?  It looks to me like it is the Christian nations of the world which seem to have a lock on the idea of invading other countries and establishing their own regimes, and the Muslim nations which are usually if not always the victims of the process.

[Henny]

So my question is, where on earth do you get the crazy idea that it is Muslims who are trying to invade other countries and establish Muslim regimes there?  It looks to me like it is the Christian nations of the world which seem to have a lock on the idea of invading other countries and establishing their own regimes, and the Muslim nations which are usually if not always the victims of the process.

Very well said, MT, as usual.

[The_Professor]

I'm a little confused why you would cite a report on the depredations of the Ethiopian Army in Somalia as evidence of the "Islamofascists" stated intention of overthrowing governments all over the world.

You do realize, don't you, that Ethiopia is a Christian country, that its army INVADED Somalia and overthrew the Somali (Islamist) government, and it wasn't the other way round?

So now we have examples of Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia (three Muslim nations) all being invaded recently by Christian armies which overthrew their governments.  Earlier examples in the region have British armies invading Iraq, Iran, Egypt, the Sudan, Palestine and  Jordan, French armies invading Syria and Lebanon, Algeria and Morocco and Italian armies invading Libya, all the invaded countries being Muslim and all the invading armies being Christian.

So my question is, where on earth do you get the crazy idea that it is Muslims who are trying to invade other countries and establish Muslim regimes there?  It looks to me like it is the Christian nations of the world which seem to have a lock on the idea of invading other countries and establishing their own regimes, and the Muslim nations which are usually if not always the victims of the process.

Actually unless I am mistaken, Ethiopai invaded Somalia at the request of the AU in order to eliminate the warloads who are creating anarchy there.

[Michael Tee]

<<Actually unless I ma mistaken, Ethiopai invaded Somalia at the request of the AU in order to eliminate the warloads who are creating anarchy there.>>

I wasn't aware of it, Professor, but thank you for pointing it out.  AU or no AU, the invasion of a Muslim nation and the overthrow of its Islamist government by the army of Christian Ethiopia is a very strange example for CU4 to offer in support of his theory that the  Islamists are the ones attempting to overthrow governments all over the world, isn't it?

And BTW, the project of eliminating anarchy is a bit of a crock.  There's more anarchy now than there was under the Islamist government, which was actually IMHO stabilizing the country after taking power from the warlords.  That's only my general impression, formed before the invasion from a series of articles in the Toronto Star on Somalian emigres returning from Toronto to participate in the new Islamic government, which seemed to be offering new hope and stability to a nation formerly floundering under the rule of various warlords.

[Richpo64]

>>So OF FRIGGING COURSE we can coexist with this situation.<

I guess we're just supposed to shrug our shoulders and forget aboutit  when they kill several thousand of us?

We just chaulk it up to coexistance?

Get real.

[The_Professor]

<<Actually unless I ma mistaken, Ethiopai invaded Somalia at the request of the AU in order to eliminate the warloads who are creating anarchy there.>>

I wasn't aware of it, Professor, but thank you for pointing it out.  AU or no AU, the invasion of a Muslim nation and the overthrow of its Islamist government by the army of Christian Ethiopia is a very strange example for CU4 to offer in support of his theory that the  Islamists are the ones attempting to overthrow governments all over the world, isn't it?

And BTW, the project of eliminating anarchy is a bit of a crock.  There's more anarchy now than there was under the Islamist government, which was actually IMHO stabilizing the country after taking power from the warlords.  That's only my general impression, formed before the invasion from a series of articles in the Toronto Star on Somalian emigres returning from Toronto to participate in the new Islamic government, which seemed to be offering new hope and stability to a nation formerly floundering under the rule of various warlords.

It is certainly debatable whether Somalia is more stable now than earlier since it is fact an unstable area in general. Clinton found that out in spades in the debacle he pursued during his Administration.

I see no religious ovetones here, however. Perhapas you are looking for one that simply is not there?

The Ethiopians also got tired of the Somalians coming across in droves into Ethiopian territory. Can't really blame them for that, can we?

[Michael Tee]

<<I see no religious ovetones here, however. Perhpas you are looking for one that simply is not there?>>

The religious overtones are at the head of the thread, the allegations that Islamofascists are determined to subvert and take over other governments.  As a factual counterbalance to that absurd view, I offered up three examples of Christian nations invading and overthrowing Muslim governments in current ongoing conflicts, and numerous examples of the same thing in the past century.  I wasn't looking for "overtones," merely factual refutation of the absurd racist nonsense that is being bandied about regularly, usually tracing back to Israeli propaganda, to demonize the Muslims and any cause associated with them.

<<The Ethiopians also got tired of the Somalians coming across in droves into Ethiopian territory. Can't really blame them for that, can we?>>

I wasn't aware of the problem, frankly, but surely there are ways of sealing the border without making war on one's neighbours.  The inevitable result of the war was the ascension of U.S. collaborators into the puppet government, the arrest, torture and murder of tens of thousands of Islamic fundamentalists and a rush for the Ethiopian border by those who can still get out, with MORE refugees than ever crowding into Ethiopia.  Frankly all of that is so predictable, I find it highly unlikely that the primary motivation for the invasion could have been to stop the flow of Somali refugees into Ethiopia