Pat Robertson endorses Rudy

[Universe Prince]

See, here is what my issue is, and what I hear from a number of people on different subjects.  It's not WHY it's illegal.  It's THAT it is illegal.

On the contrary, I think the why is extremely important. Personally, if I don't believe the law is just, I feel a greater obligation to oppose the law than to see that those who break the law are punished.

On a side note, when you were punished for something you didn't see obvious, and asked about it afterwards, did you still learn not to do it?  Just my curiosity.

That depended a great deal on the reason I was given and how much I agreed with it.

Criminals? And why? Because they broke a law to come here for the opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their families? Are they bad people because of that? I think they are not.

Yes.  Yes, because they broke the law.  I want them to have the opportunities.  They are not "bad" for desiring it, certainly.  But it is U.S. Law that you do X, Y,(and possibly A,E,D,F,T,W,H,Y,U,L AND P) in order for you to get here.  So, when there is a tedious list of things to do, I find it is good to start at the beginning.  But I don't think it's right that they try and CUT in LINE.

I certainly see your point (though I disagree), but I'm still left questioning why we have a line in the first place.

I agree with you that if a family is starving, they should be able to ask for assistance from us.  I don't know what the proper response would be, but we would be morally required to do SOMETHING.

I don't believe we should have assistance programs, well, at least not run by the government. I think we mostly need to get out of the way of people who come here to make a living. In my opinion, that is our moral obligation.

However to say it's okay to come over and you can ignore the laws would be wrong.

Indeed. I'm not arguing they should allowed to ignore the law. I'm arguing that the law should be changed.

As always, these are my opinions, and if I've said anything personally offensive, please let me know.

You're doing fine. This is a good discussion. And I cannot see anything you said that might have been personally offensive.

I believe that we should protect our borders and be careful of who comes in.  We DO have people trying to come after us.  We're at war.  I believe in walls and military and guards and checkpoints and documentation.

On the border, I do not agree. I'm not opposed to checking identification of people who immigrate to the U.S., but we don't need walls and guards or a strictly controlled national border any more than we do for our state borders, by which I mean, not at all.

Can anyone tell me, if an family wants to become Americans, what is the current method?  Do they pay fees?  Do they have to seek a lawyer?  Do they have to have sex with the mayor? (joke, hopefully!)  Do they have to go to an American embassy?  Why is it so hard for people to come here legally?

The immigration process, and there are actually several, can be rather complicated and expensive. I recommend checking out http://www.workpermit.com/us/us.htm as the site does a nice of job of explaining the immigration procedures in relatively easy to understand language, which is to say, without most of the legalese that fill some other immigration sites.

[Plane]

Rain on voteing day is known as "Rebulican Weather" because Republicans are known to come out to vote in adverse conditions more than Democrats.

Democrats like motor voter laws and hate ID requirements because they want it to be as easy as possible to vote , reason being that people who are casual about voteing tend to vote Democrat even a very slight burden or minor inconvienience costs Democrats votes.

[Plane]

George Bush had a plan for reforming immagration to make it more orderly and easyer for the leagal immagrant.
While at the same time makeing it harder for the illeagal immagrant , smuggler , criminal and terrorist to cross the border.

This plan has been shredded and forgotten ,  It had elements in it that were attacked from each side .

This is the disadvantage of being a moderate and eager to crompromise , President Bush has no zelots in his corner , because he is in the middle, he isn't in a corner.

Our present policys if they could be properly enforced would ruin our economy ,  but with he half hearted enforcement it gets it is causeing hudreds to die of thirst or down on the way here and many thousands to work beneith the threat of discovery and accept less wage than their work is worth.


We really ought to change , but in what direction?

[sirs]

>>As far right as Rich can get ... <<

I'm anti-death penalty. How far right is that? Now-a-days I guess defending your country makes you way out in right field.

No, hyperbolic claims of "all liberals are x", calling all of the Muslim religion the enemy, and if one doesn't denounce either as such in the most heated and aggressive manner as possible makes you "way out in right field"

[Seamus]

George Bush had a plan for reforming immagration to make it more orderly and easyer for the leagal immagrant.
While at the same time makeing it harder for the illeagal immagrant , smuggler , criminal and terrorist to cross the border.

This plan has been shredded and forgotten ,  It had elements in it that were attacked from each side .

This is the disadvantage of being a moderate and eager to crompromise , President Bush has no zelots in his corner , because he is in the middle, he isn't in a corner.

Our present policys if they could be properly enforced would ruin our economy ,  but with he half hearted enforcement it gets it is causeing hudreds to die of thirst or down on the way here and many thousands to work beneith the threat of discovery and accept less wage than their work is worth.


We really ought to change , but in what direction?

I'd love to hear more about former immigration plan.  As far as what direction should we change, I believe we need to err on the side of caution, myself.   I think that we need to let in those people who need in, but not until a thorough check on them somehow.  We need to protect ourselves. 

That is really unfortunate that the plan you mentioned got shredded...  Was it riders or what that killed it?   It sounds like exactly what we need.

[Plane]

George Bush had a plan for reforming immigration to make it more orderly and essayer for the leagal immigrant.
While at the same time making it harder for the illegal immigrant , smuggler , criminal and terrorist to cross the border.

This plan has been shredded and forgotten ,  It had elements in it that were attacked from each side .

This is the disadvantage of being a moderate and eager to compromise , President Bush has no zealots in his corner , because he is in the middle, he isn't in a corner.

Our present policies if they could be properly enforced would ruin our economy ,  but with he half hearted enforcement it gets it is causing hundreds to die of thirst or down on the way here and many thousands to work beneath the threat of discovery and accept less wage than their work is worth.


We really ought to change , but in what direction?

I'd love to hear more about former immigration plan.  As far as what direction should we change, I believe we need to err on the side of caution, myself.   I think that we need to let in those people who need in, but not until a thorough check on them somehow.  We need to protect ourselves. 

That is really unfortunate that the plan you mentioned got shredded...  Was it riders or what that killed it?  It sounds like exactly what we need.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41340-2005Jan1.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/21/AR2005102101813.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040107-1.html
http://www.news.com/2100-1022_3-5143807.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6250756.stm
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2006/may/21/052110736.html

These articles are about the 2005  Bush proposal for Immigration reform.

[R.R.]

Giuliani Whips Clinton Among Independents

Political Wire got an advance look at a new Cook Political Report/RT Strategies poll.

The striking finding is that Giuliani leads Clinton among independent voters, 48% to 37%. This statistic feeds the "electability" factor raised by John Edwards in the Democratic primary race.

First Read notes how crucial the independent vote is for Democrats. "In 2004, per the exit polls, John Kerry -- who lost the presidential election -- won the independent vote by just one point (49%-48%). But when they took control of Congress last year, Democrats won the indie vote by 18 points, 57%-39%."

[Amianthus]

I believe U.S. drivers licenses are for U.S. citizens to license them to operate heavy machinery on the US roads.  It is also used as a legally accepted form of ID.  It is also useful if you want to sneak a peak at someone's real birthday.

You think that resident aliens and even aliens here on extended vacation shouldn't be allowed to drive?

[Seamus]

I believe U.S. drivers licenses are for U.S. citizens to license them to operate heavy machinery on the US roads.  It is also used as a legally accepted form of ID.  It is also useful if you want to sneak a peak at someone's real birthday.

You think that resident aliens and even aliens here on extended vacation shouldn't be allowed to drive?

Honestly, I've never thought about it.  I've never personally known someone who was a citizen of another country that was here legally. Not even on vacation.  It hadn't crossed my mind.   Hmmm..  No, I can't say I want them to be dis-allowed to drive.  While I'd be a little scared of people who drive on the left side of the road trying to navigate our freeways, I think we're talking about people that have been here a little longer than that.

Okay, we have different classes of licenses that show you are licensed to drive a car, a motorcycle, a bus, etc.  Why not a "V" class for visitors.  It's not legal to vote, but they can drive a car.  I see it looking significantly different so that it's easily identified.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Here is the deal. They are here to work. Public transportation sucks, so they need a car to get to work on time and keep the job.

If they have a license, they can drive legally and buy insurance. If they do not have a license, they will drive illegally and NOT have insurance. If they have an accident, they will run away, leaving you to pay for the damage, leaving your bloody body in the street.

If that is okay with you, then deprive them of licenses to make your bloody point. But promise to send me a check when some illegal Juan or Henri hits me or my car and runs off.

I for one, am all for the state issuing licenses, because I have to drive here in Miami, where maybe 15% of the population is illegally here.

Bush's immigration plan was more manageable than the mess we have now. The laws we have have not been enforced and won't ever be enforced.
It is not, nor will it ever be possible to arrest and deport 12,000,000 illegal aliens. So we need something more workable.

The rich depend on illegals to do shitty jobs, as in copnstruction, for low wages. Republicans need cheap labor.
The legal immigrants sympathize with the illegal immigrants. Democrats feel that illegals will become legal and will vote Democratic.

Both parties have or think they have) an interest in preserving the status quo, but the status quo has horrible consequences and is not sustainable.


 

[Amianthus]

I've never personally known someone who was a citizen of another country that was here legally. Not even on vacation.

Where the hell do you live?

Personally, I'm dual-national, but my parents and my sister are Austrian citizens. They've been living in the US for over 45 years, paying taxes, paying Social Security, etc. I know a large number of green card holders, personally.

Here's is what their resident alien cards look like:

[Seamus]

I've never personally known someone who was a citizen of another country that was here legally. Not even on vacation.

Where the hell do you live?

  So Cal

Personally, I'm dual-national, but my parents and my sister are Austrian citizens. They've been living in the US for over 45 years, paying taxes, paying Social Security, etc. I know a large number of green card holders, personally.

Cool... How come if they've been here for 45 years they haven't wanted to become citizens?  (Just curious.  It's not my business, really!)

Here's is what their resident alien cards look like:


[/quote]

Thank you!  I've never seen one before...  What if we have some kind of addendum on the resident alien card that allows them to drive?  They can take the tests and get a happy face on their card or something that says "Licensed to drive in XX"

[Amianthus]

Thank you!  I've never seen one before...  What if we have some kind of addendum on the resident alien card that allows them to drive?  They can take the tests and get a happy face on their card or something that says "Licensed to drive in XX"

How's about we just leave the system that works alone? If they are a permanent resident, they currently have all the rights and duties of citizens, with the exception of voting. Sounds like it works fine to me. They vote in Austrian elections. I can vote in either, but have voted in the US until now.

Cool... How come if they've been here for 45 years they haven't wanted to become citizens?  (Just curious.  It's not my business, really!)

Because they've seen what has happened to others that have become naturalized US citizens. Austria can never revoke their citizenship (it can only be given up voluntarily as part of the naturalization process to become a US citizen); the US can, and has, revoked the citizenship of naturalized citizens - leaving them effectively the citizens of no where.

[Seamus]

Here is the deal. They are here to work. Public transportation sucks, so they need a car to get to work on time and keep the job.

K.  I can see this.  But you fail to mention that they are here illegally to work

If they have a license, they can drive legally and buy insurance. If they do not have a license, they will drive illegally and NOT have insurance. If they have an accident, they will run away, leaving you to pay for the damage, leaving your bloody body in the street.

So, an ILLEGALLY here person has ILLEGALLY driven without a licence and has been in a HIT AND RUN...   I say KEEP the HELL out of my country, you law breaking bleep-a-bleep.

If that is okay with you, then deprive them of licenses to make your bloody point. But promise to send me a check when some illegal Juan or Henri hits me or my car and runs off.

Why should I send you a dollar when you seem to think it's okay for them to be here in the first place.  And why do you think that if your "illegal Juan or Henri" are here illegally and are already breaking our laws, they're going to spend their money on INSURANCE?  Because it's the LAW?

I for one, am all for the state issuing licenses, because I have to drive here in Miami, where maybe 15% of the population is illegally here.

Bush's immigration plan was more manageable than the mess we have now. The laws we have have not been enforced and won't ever be enforced.
It is not, nor will it ever be possible to arrest and deport 12,000,000 illegal aliens. So we need something more workable.

So your response is to give them licenses?  Tell me again how this fixes anything? They're breaking the law!  Taking away one of the laws they're breaking (by giving them licenses) doesn't mean they are going to get insurance!  It doesn't mean they're going to pay the tags on their vehicles.  It doesn't mean they're going to pay taxes, and it SURELY doesn't mean they're going to stop and say "oops, my bad" when they hit you and leave your bloody body on the street.

The rich depend on illegals to do shitty jobs, as in copnstruction, for low wages. Republicans need cheap labor.
The legal immigrants sympathize with the illegal immigrants. Democrats feel that illegals will become legal and will vote Democratic.

Both parties have or think they have) an interest in preserving the status quo, but the status quo has horrible consequences and is not sustainable.

Well, I have differing view about anyone "needing" them, but I don't see how condoning their actions helps anything.

Lemme ask..  Tho, it might not be a decent comparison. (I'm a little frustrated..) Okay, I'm in a hurry and feel that I don't need to stop for stop signs or red lights.  I don't get caught and I get to where I'm going on time.  Is what I did wrong?

[Seamus]

Thank you!  I've never seen one before...  What if we have some kind of addendum on the resident alien card that allows them to drive?  They can take the tests and get a happy face on their card or something that says "Licensed to drive in XX"

How's about we just leave the system that works alone? If they are a permanent resident, they currently have all the rights and duties of citizens, with the exception of voting. Sounds like it works fine to me. They vote in Austrian elections. I can vote in either, but have voted in the US until now.

Okay...  Sounds good, mostly.  I think...  What about... uug.  I need to think about this. 

See, I see your point, certainly.  They should be able to drive if they are here legally and have passed our driving tests.  I think what I'm driving at (no pun intended!!) is that I want our citizens to have a convenient, yet secure, way of showing that they are actually CITIZENS.  Then this card or whatever could be used for voting purposes.  I was thinking about our drivers licenses being that document.  But as you say, non-voters can still drive. 

Cool... How come if they've been here for 45 years they haven't wanted to become citizens?  (Just curious.  It's not my business, really!)

Because they've seen what has happened to others that have become naturalized US citizens. Austria can never revoke their citizenship (it can only be given up voluntarily as part of the naturalization process to become a US citizen); the US can, and has, revoked the citizenship of naturalized citizens - leaving them effectively the citizens of no where.
[/quote]

Ouch!  Not good...  Thanks for letting me pry into your life.