Author Topic: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says  (Read 9620 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2007, 08:27:51 AM »
Oh, God.  Do they ALL get their "history" from Fox News documentaries?  Video games?  Comic books?  The Falkland Islands, a British possession inhabited ONLY by British people, was invaded and occupied by a fascist regime which had at that point tortured to death tens of thousands of its opponents.

While many of the settlers are of British and Scottish descent, there are many others who are of French and Spanish descent, and a few Dutch as well. In addition, the Falkland Islands are British territory only because the British (with US aid) invaded the islands and kicked out the Argentinian governor after Argentina seceded from Spain in the 1830s. They had allowed their "subjects" to live under Spanish rule of the islands for many years.

You can hardly say that there were ONLY British people living there.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Stray Pooch

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2007, 09:31:34 AM »
Michael, your problem is, as I have already stated, that your perspective is so skewed as to be completely unreliable.

You are crying because of a lack of respect.  You deserve no respect.  In the first place, you do NOT know as much as me on many topics.  But that in itself would be simply ignorance.  And you are right, an ad hominem attack based on ignorance alone would be wrong.  But when I say your viewpoint is skewed, i am not referring to your ignorance.  I have no problem accepting that, while you may not know as much as you think you do you certainly are no dummy when it comes to facts.   Indeed, it can equally be said that I do not know as much as you on several topics . And I have said on several occasions with all sincereity that you have a perfectly good intellect.  You simply view the world through an enormous prejudice, and yes it is certainly bigotry.  That means that your opinion of US world policy is no more reliable than David Duke's opinion of Black people's achievements in the world.  

But you accuse me of coming into a debate with an attitude problem.  I DO have an attitude problem.  When you constantly talk about me and my brothers and sisters in arms as murderers, rapists and thieves I'm gonna have an attitude problem.  Your protestations that you know "a few" good soldiers and/or Americans is no more sincere than the proverbial "Some of my best friends are niggers" attitude. When you constantly attack my country and my friends and resort to childish ranting instead of reasoned debate, I'm going to have an attitude problem.  You make sweeping, arrogant, vile accusations about ALL soldiers or even MOST soldiers - and they are bullshit.  I PERSONALLY came on this forum and lamented the terrible actions in Abu Ghraib as an offense to me as a soldier and an American.  I have stated that I think Bush is wrong for failing to give POW status to Taliban soldiers - who I think are clearly covered (while the Al Aquaeda fighters deserve no such status).  I don't have a problem with reasonable debate about US actions or about asserting your viewpoint when it at odds with mine.  But when you compare US soldiers with Nazi war criminals - NOT individually (which certainly has merit) but collectively - and you compare Bush with Hitler, I am going to call you out on it and damn right I am going to have an attitude problem.  Had Hitler merely been militaristic the comparison might be justified.  But Bush is not mass-murdering Jews - or Muslims for that matter - in order to racially purge the world.  Even if Bush's motives are purely mercantile - and I do not for a minute accept that theory - his brand of evil would be run-of-the-mill profiteering.  That is wrong in itself, but it comes nowhere near the pure. demonic evil of Hitler - and very few leaders do.  It's completely acceptable to compare the slavery of the US past with the racist evils of Hitler (and one of Hitlers heros, btw, was a eugenics proponent from here in Virginia named Joseph S.DeJarnette) but the US corrected its slavery issue by itself.  No question it required military force - civil war, in fact - but we didn't need the world to come in and correct it for us as Hitler did.  

Now when you lecture me about YOUR skewed world view and how uninformed I am, I'm gonna blow that off as a personal opinion, but I will certainly point out your nonsense as much as you choose to point out mine.  All of the blind hatred, ad hominem attacks and attitude you ascribe to me are reactions to those very traits in your own posts.  You accuse me of seeing the mote in your eye and ignoring the beam in my own.  There is at least some merit to that, but it's hypocrisy in the purest sense.  You do not have a mote in your eye - you have a petrified forest.  

Since you asked, I will bring up one example of your ignorance - with a caveat.  I referred to the Supreme Council of Iran and how they took away the choice of the Iranian people.  Unfortunately, I used a verbal shorthand, so perhaps you were calling me on the incorrect full designation.  I was referring to the Supreme Leader and the Council of Guardians.  If that was your point, I concede it but I apologize for the shorthand no more than I would for calling Rhode Island and Providence Plantations just plain Rhode Island for short - like most of the known universe.  But if you are still honestly unaware of the facts behind my point - and frankly, I find that surprising since you frequent this place and I thought you were at least up on currernt events, though you might well be biased in your views thereof - I will give a brief (yeah, right, Pooch is gonna be brief) explanation.

The current regime is in place after being vetted and passed off on by the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-KHAMENEI (who has been the Iranian head of state since 1989) and his Council of Guardians - a group of six clerics appointed by the Ayatollah and and six members of the legislature.  Before each election, they vet the candidates and routinely disqualify reformers.  Since the legislative branch and executive branches of the government are vetted by the Supreme Leader and the Counsel, and the Judiary is directly appointed by the Supreme Leader (The Iranian secular government has a three-branch set up similar to the US model) the reality is that the Ayatollah and his henchmen are the rulers of the country.  The choices of the people are therefore limited to those approved by the hard-line conservative clerics.  This is about the same as Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell deciding who gets to run for President in the United States for all political parties.  People like Brass get upset because folks like Robertson have influence on one particular party, and even then only to a certain extent.  Imagine if he got veto power over the Republican, Democratic, Libertarian, Socialist, Green, etc. candidates.  Calling our government a democractically elected government under such circumstances would be technically correct, but morally a joke.  Saddam, as you may recall, claimed a 98% share of the vote in his last election.  Easy to do when you run unopposed.  In the end, the ruling power of Iran sits atop the government like Henry Ford stating that customers can have the Model T in any color they want - as long as it's black.

By Pooch standards, that WAS brief.

Further, when I call you for hostile, offensive and sometimes literally blithering rants, instead of recognizing that you have stepped over a line, you insist I am only attacking you because I have "run out of substantive argument."  THAT, sir, is a cop out.  I respond to idiocy by pointing it out as idiocy.  There is no need to answer comparisons to Hitler, broadbrush accusations against honorable soldiers or gratutitous profanity and superfluous ridicule with reasoned debate.  It is you, sir, who have a lot of nerve expecting me to respond rationally and respectfully to such childishness.  I won't, and you have no right to expect me to.

My lack of respect for you is not based on your ignorance or lack of intellect.  I think you ARE ignorant in some areas, but generally you are well informed and perfectly capable of becoming informed in areas where you might lack.  It is CERTAINLY not based on lack of intellect, because I have no doubt of your intellectual capacity - and just to be clear, I mean that I think you have an excellent intellect.  And it does not come from your mutual lack of respect for me, because my ego is way too big to take disdain personally.  Indeed, I have no problem accepting certain criticisms as having merit, and I can easily ignore those I think are nonsense.  The sole reason for which I lack respect for you is your absolute bigotry against the United States in general and its soldiers AS A GROUP in particular.  It makes it very hard to respond to your reasonable points (though heaven knows I try) when I am reading them through a ton of bigotted garbage.  But if I did not respect your ABILITIES and knowledge I wouldn't even try that.  I stopped responding to Knute - except to make fun of him - long ago because I gave him no credibility at all.  I TRULY have no respect for him.  You I do respect - and believe me I wouldn't waste my time or the forum's disk space to post this if I didn't - but that respect goes south in a hurry when your posts dropo to the level of knute-like rants.  

Finally, my last post was DELIBERATELY skewed.  I was trying to demonstrate YOUR method of argument.  That's why I directly chose to use "Malvinas" instead of "Falklands" among other characterizations.  You will note that when I discussed it in terms of acknowledged British rights I referred to them as the Falklands.  The whole point of the post was that there are two ways of looking at anything.  The one response in your rebuttal I think it actually worth debating (and by that I am not disparaging your points, but simply stating that both sides of most of the other points are already done to death) is your comparison of how GB adminstered her empire and how the US administers ours.  You talk about Great Britain "taking care" of her empire by adminstering the government of her possessions while the US sets up puppet governments and then leaves them.  You may be just responding in kind to my "two ways of looking at it" argument.  But if you are serious then I would respond that British policy has historically been to colonize, subjugate and then govern other lands.  US policy - at least since it became a world power - has been to try to leave the countries it takes over with its own government - preferrably, though not always a democratically elected one.  That is part of that social evolution of world powers I referred to.  

Now you need not respond - because I concede in advance - that the governments the US leaves in control are often dictatorships propped up by US power.  And you can certainly rationally make the argument that this constitutes neglect of the needs of the people of those countries in favor of US interests.  But we also do things like we did in Japan, putting in a system of government we approve and allowing the country to evolve along those lines.  Objectively, there is an argument that this demonstrates a certain degree of arrogance but in this case I think it is a fairly benign one.   While individual examples of both attitudes may be compared one way or the other, the core debate is whether it is better to conquer and retain another country or to conquer and then release it.  In that respect I think the general US policy is better than the general British policy - but I hasten to say that unlike the US, Great Britain has not been involved in the business of empire building in decades, and has certainly evolved in its colonial policies in the last century.   Where US policy may be more enlightened than other nations, it is simply because the US has benefit of the examples of other nations in earlier, less enlightened times.  Those other nations have learned the same lessons, they have just not had to apply them.  To put it another way, the US opposition to apartheid was not hypocritical because of our previous policies of slavery, Jim Crow, and general racial inequality.  We had just grown up.

My hostility towards you is simply based on your hostility towards me - and make no mistake I take it personally when you call soldiers rapists, thieves and murderers.  I certainly take offense when you choose ridicule instead of reasoned responses to my posts, and then call me out for responding to that ridicule with ridicule.  You can certainly continue to express that opinion, but I'm going to call it bigotry and I think the characterization is more than fair.   Beyond that, I think you are unable to reach objective conclusions because of your bias.  That makes you no different from most people, myself included, but I honestly think I make far more effort to recognize and overcome my prejudices than you do.  I concede that you have certainly made some efforts in that regard, and I further concede that I am working from my own set of prejudices in this situation.  But if you are upset about my lack of respect for you, recognize that the only area in which I lack respect for you is in your prejudice against the US and the US military in particular.  While you dishonor people who are actually dying and coming home damaged for life, I'm going to call you on it - and it won't be respectfully.


  
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Stray Pooch

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2007, 10:54:04 AM »
Touche' Pooch.  Great rebuttal        8)

Pooch -- an exemplary post. Insightful.
Thank you.

Thank you both for your kind comments.  As Seamus has pointed out, it's not a contest.  But it is nice to have one's opinion verified by competent authorities. 
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Michael Tee

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2007, 11:41:44 AM »
<<While many of the settlers are of British and Scottish descent, there are many others who are of French and Spanish descent, and a few Dutch as well.>>

Thanks for pointing that out.  I guess I'm a victim of the MSM - - all I saw interviewed and all the people I read about were British, and very, very English at that.  I knew that the islanders had very strongly rejected all efforts to bring the islands into Argentina, even when the junta had guaranteed them that their rights would still be respected.  I figure all of these islanders are British subjects, just like all Canadians are Canadians even if born somewhere else, anywhere else.

My point remains valid - - these were British citizens and they should not have been abandoned to anyone, much less a gang of criminal fascist torturers and murderers.

<< In addition, the Falkland Islands are British territory only because the British (with US aid) invaded the islands and kicked out the Argentinian governor after Argentina seceded from Spain in the 1830s. They had allowed their "subjects" to live under Spanish rule of the islands for many years.>>

Interesting.  So how did New Mexico or Texas or California become American?  I guess they don't belong to America any more than the Falklands belong to Britain.

<<You can hardly say that there were ONLY British people living there.>>

OK, let's say the only people who counted were British.    :)

Amianthus

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2007, 11:58:54 AM »
Interesting.  So how did New Mexico or Texas or California become American?  I guess they don't belong to America any more than the Falklands belong to Britain.

California and Texas declared independence from Mexico. Sometime later they petitioned the US for acceptance as a state. New Mexico was part of the Republic of Texas, but they transferred that part to the US prior to their petition.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2007, 12:12:11 PM »
<<Since you asked, I will bring up one example of your ignorance - with a caveat.  I referred to the Supreme Council of Iran and how they took away the choice of the Iranian people. >>

You might as well have saved your breath, Pooch - - that's not an example of my "ignorance," it's an example of you not being able to follow an argument or even express yourself properly.  What you referred to in fact was the "Supreme Counsel" which by definition would refer to an adviser, often a lawyer.  Of course, I would have picked up immediately that you were referring to the Supreme Council, had you not mixed up your time periods and made the reference in respect of a dialogue wherein I was referring to the overthrow of the Mohammed Mossadegh government, a time many years before the Supreme Council came into existence.

Here's how your reference came up:

Pooch:  <<Yeah.  The people of Iran had choice taken away from them by the Supreme Counsel. >>

Tee:  Sorry, Pooch, that one you'll have to explain to me.  The people of Iran had elected the government of Mohammed Mossadegh, who then nationalized the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, and was subsequently overthrown by a CIA-managed coup and replaced by the Shah of Iran.  I don't even think there is or was any such thing as a "Supreme Counsel" in Iran, and if there were, its actions couldn't possibly give you the right to overthrow a democratically elected government.  That would be for the people of Iran themselves to look after if they cared to do so.


I could go back to the post before that, but this snippet makes it clear enough - - I had been responding to your bullshit about how much the U.S. promotes "democracy" around the world and brought up the U.S. overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh regime as one example of how absurd your contention was.  You had resonded with your (at the time unrecognizable) reference to the Supreme Council (an institution which arose many years AFTER the overthrow of the Mossadegh government) as if something that it had done somehow justified the overthrow of a democratically elected government by the U.S.A.  It should have been perfectly clear to you by my response (reprinted above) that my remarks had been directed to events of the 1950s, but you chose instead to springboard from your own confusion and lack of clarity into an attack on MY supposed "ignorance."  Oh, well, fire away, I should be used to it by now.

As far as the rest of your rant is concerned, I calls 'em the way I sees 'em.  Obviously there is no army in the world, not even Hitler's, that is composed exclusively of criminals, rapists, sadists and thugs.  Nobody can make a blanket indictment of an entire army that takes in every single soldier.  Some armies conduct themselves reasonably well (the Allied armies of WWII) and acquire a fairly good reputation.  Other armies (yours, for example) don't.  They have acquired, IMHO, a reputation similar to Hitler's armies, for torture and massacre.  That's my opinion.  You resent it.  Tough shit.  That's how it is.  Apparently you want it both ways - - a pat on the back for your opposition to Abu Ghraib and a big gold star for the valiant men and women of the U.S. Army.  Doesn't work that way.  They've disgraced themselves and their leaders have disgraced themselves.  Like the U.S. Army in Viet Nam, they're baby killers, and if you don't like the name, better get used to it, because to people like me, people with a knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, that's all they'll ever be known as.  You can fool some people into making heroes out of them, but you better get used to the fact that you can't fool everyone.  If you want to take comfort in the fact that they aren't as bad as the Nazis,  and Bush is still a better man than Hitler, go ahead, knock yourself out.  Rafael fucking Trujillo was a better man than Hitler, Papa Doc Duvalier was a better man than Hitler, but if that's the standard to which you aspire, go for it, welcome to it, but pardon me while I hold my nose.

Michael Tee

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2007, 12:16:06 PM »
<<California and Texas declared independence from Mexico. Sometime later they petitioned the US for acceptance as a state. New Mexico was part of the Republic of Texas, but they transferred that part to the US prior to their petition.>>

Gee, that's interesting.  Thanks.  Did the Mexican-American War have anything to do with any of that?   Did the Mexican abolition of slavery have anything to do with Texas' declaration of independence?  (just askin)

Amianthus

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2007, 12:29:37 PM »
Did the Mexican-American War have anything to do with any of that?   Did the Mexican abolition of slavery have anything to do with Texas' declaration of independence?  (just askin)

While the war was going on at the same time, the declaration of independence by Texas and California happened before news of the war got to those respective states. And the ceding of New Mexico to the US prior to petition for acceptance as a state was a concession to the 1850 Compromise - which was a slavery compromise. Texas was admitted as a slave state and New Mexico was admitted as a free state.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2007, 12:53:03 PM »
<<While the war was going on at the same time, the declaration of independence by Texas and California happened before news of the war got to those respective states.>>

LOL.  Just another one of those amazing and fortuitous coincidences that just dot the history of the United States of America, eh?  Wonderful.


<<And the ceding of New Mexico to the US prior to petition for acceptance as a state was a concession to the 1850 Compromise - which was a slavery compromise. Texas was admitted as a slave state and New Mexico was admitted as a free state.>>

So basically Texas, California AND New Mexico just happened to fall into your laps at just about the same time as you were fighting some kind of war with Mexico, eh?  Ah, this is priceless.  And I bet the war with Mexico was so you could bring them the benefits of democracy?  Or were they hiding weapons of mass destruction from you?

Oh, and my question whether the fact that Mexico prohibited slavery had anything to do with the Texas declaration of independence - - I guess your silence on that indicates that there was absolutely no relation between those two facts, eh?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 12:55:40 PM by Michael Tee »

Amianthus

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2007, 01:08:55 PM »
LOL.  Just another one of those amazing and fortuitous coincidences that just dot the history of the United States of America, eh?  Wonderful.

Yeah. In the case of Texas, it was a 10 year planning session  ::) (Texas declared it's independence 10 years before the war started). When I said the war the going on at the same time, I meant that within a short span of years, not months or so.

And I never said that the Texas' declaration of independence didn't involve slavery, it was a portion of the issue. Just like so many other issues at the time. Border control was another issue, as was a coup in Mexico by General Santa Anna in 1836 (the proximate cause).
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Stray Pooch

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2007, 02:38:47 PM »
You might as well have saved your breath, Pooch - - that's not an example of my "ignorance," it's an example of you not being able to follow an argument or even express yourself properly.  What you referred to in fact was the "Supreme Counsel" which by definition would refer to an adviser, often a lawyer.  Of course, I would have picked up immediately that you were referring to the Supreme Council, had you not mixed up your time periods and made the reference in respect of a dialogue wherein I was referring to the overthrow of the Mohammed Mossadegh government, a time many years before the Supreme Council came into existence.

You're right on two counts, I misspelled the word and I skimmed over your point.  So your ignorance, in this particular case, was not the issue but rather my error.

I had been responding to your bullshit about how much the U.S. promotes "democracy" around the world . . .

Which post was that?  I don't believe I had said anything about the US "promoting democracy" around the world to that point.  I talked about the US entering WWII.  That was not about "promoting democracy."  It was about defending ourselves against aggression, as opposed to interfering with someone else's internal affairs.  Perhaps that is verbal (or type-al?) shorthand on your part, but I'm pretty sure it's not accurate.   OTOH, its hardly a point worth calling you on, since you obviously WERE responding to a general defense of US policy on the part of myself and other posters.   I don't really view it as an actual error, just a generalization that could be nit-picked, but serves the point in context.

The reason I respond to it is to call attention to the other reason I have limited respect for you.  Your ego is so fragile that you respond aggressively to mistakes instead of simply recognizing an error and dealing with it in context.  I let is slide before, but I will point out now that you have on several occasions made a point of how "nobody is buying" what I said - where in fact several people clearly were.  I generally ignore that sort of appeal to the general forum, because I know it feels good to be backed up (as Sirs and the Professor did for me) and I know that ego is part of the reason we all post.  But I don't get too worried about what other people think about my posts.  If i couldn't deal with rejection, I would have never survived ny high school years!   When I point out errors, I try to be reasonable about where misunderstandings may occur.  For example, I mentioned the fact that your "ignorance" may have only been a response to my shorthanded reference was one of those points.  As I said, it would have surprised me had you not known about the "Supreme Council" but as it turns out, your interpretation of my misspelling was perfectly logical - and in the context of a response to your post even a correct spelling and designation would have been irrelevent.  But I'm not upset about being clearly wrong.  I made a dumb error, and compounded it with a misspelling (just keep MissusDee away from this thread, wouldja?).  I don't blame you for throwing it back at me, because you get so few opportunities to catch me in an ACTUAL error.  But when I referred to your "ignorance" you should know that I do not use that word as an insult.  I consider it a neutral word, though I recognize it has negative connotations and I ought to be more careful with it. 

The fact is, sometimes you are stupid.  Now, let me explain what I mean by that word.  I do not view ignorance as stupid.  Ask me a question about Nuclear Physics if you want to see ignorance.  I do not view lack of understanding as stupid.  I think you suffer from that in many ways, but that is simply a case of perspective.   I don't even view lack of intelligence (from which you decidely do NOT suffer) as stupidity either.  Just because a person lacks the ability to understand something doesn't mean he is stupid. 

To me, stupidity is any one (or a combination) of those factors combined with arrogance.  A person who is ignorant, misinformed or not very bright but insists he knows exactly what he is talking about is stupid - because he is unteachable.  Even a person with limited capacity who can acknowlege  that fact can be taught.  But arrogance seals the mind, and it makes it impossible to learn. You have it in spades.

That's my opinion.  You resent it.  Tough shit.  That's how it is. 

As is my opinion of you.

Apparently you want it both ways - - a pat on the back for your opposition to Abu Ghraib and a big gold star for the valiant men and women of the U.S. Army. 

That simplistic viewpoint is exactly what I mean.  I don't want a pat on my back for opposing Abu Ghraib.  I simply want you to acknowledge (though I realize that expecting you to concede anything is dreaming) that it is perfectly possible to support the military and still recognize when atrocities are committed.  That  Michael, takes objectivity and common sense - two qualities in which you are deeply lacking.  Simplistic answers are best for you, because they make it unnecessary to think.  That's what bigotry does, and what stereotypes are used for.

Doesn't work that way.  They've disgraced themselves and their leaders have disgraced themselves.  Like the U.S. Army in Viet Nam, they're baby killers, and if you don't like the name, better get used to it, because to people like me, people with a knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, that's all they'll ever be known as.

There has never been an Army that didn't kill babys.  The soldiers in WWII committed horrible atrocities - and I am talking about the allies - but the media didn't report most of them because it was a different time.  So the reputation of the military in WWII was better than that of our current soldiers, though one was no better or worse than the other.  THE OVERWHELMING majority of US soldiers are not involved in atrocities, and certainly do not kill babies.  But your broadbrush works for you because of your prejudice.  I have the opposite prejudice.  I tend to think most soldiers get it and don't commit atrocities.  My designation as the army as "heros" is no less a broad brush than your silly "baby killer" label.  But the argument that the army must be recognized as "baby killers" for the reputation YOU think it has is no less valid than saying you have to accept them all as heros because some of them surely are. 

The fact is, most soldiers are just normal people, with decent values, some flaws, and occasional flashes of extraordinary bravery or cruelty.  But there are an awful lot of promiscuous gays, criminal blacks, drug running illegal aliens and terrorist Muslims.  Even suggesting such things in a reasonably worded way would raise the ire of an awful lot of gays, Muslims, blacks or latinos.   If I have any hope of suggesting that maybe homosexuals as a community should be more aware of certain unsafe practices, African-American leaders should focus more on the internal social problems of their communities, illegal immigration should be controlled better or it should be OK to map out the Muslim communities in LA, I had BETTER not present it as "Nigger leaders oughta tell their coon buddies to stop stealing cars," "Faggots should stop fucking each other up the ass," "Spics should be shot at the border" or "Idol Worshipping Mohammedans are going to hell anyway, so why SHOULDN'T we just nuke them all and get it over with."  Not only will those inflammatory words incite justifable rage among those communities.  They will also kill any credibility the speaker has, on the outside chance that they might have a valid point.  Your posts are full of rude, inflammatory and childish language that is very much like that.  That is the language of bigotry, and you are fluent in it.  Like most bigots, it is your fear that drives your behavior.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2007, 07:57:14 PM »
" the U.S. overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh regime "


Wouldnt "the British overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh regime " be more accurate?

Michael Tee

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2007, 10:03:38 PM »
<<Wouldnt "the British overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh regime " be more accurate?>>

That's a good point, if only because the precipitating factor was the Mossadegh regime's nationalization of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, a British concern, and the British were the former occupying colonial power.

However the coup was in fact organized by the CIA and Kermit Roosevelt of the CIA personally brought back the Shah to take over the reins of power.

I always believed, given the genesis of the situation, that the British were behind it in some way, perhaps advising, perhaps financing, perhaps both.  How the spoils of the crime were divided, I don't think we'll ever know.

However deeply, the CIA was in deep enough to demonstrate the absurdity of the claims that the U.S. always acts to promote democracy.  That's just ludicrous.

Plane

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2007, 11:00:22 PM »
<<Wouldnt "the British overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh regime " be more accurate?>>

That's a good point, if only because the precipitating factor was the Mossadegh regime's nationalization of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, a British concern, and the British were the former occupying colonial power.

However the coup was in fact organized by the CIA and Kermit Roosevelt of the CIA personally brought back the Shah to take over the reins of power.

I always believed, given the genesis of the situation, that the British were behind it in some way, perhaps advising, perhaps financing, perhaps both.  How the spoils of the crime were divided, I don't think we'll ever know.

However deeply, the CIA was in deep enough to demonstrate the absurdity of the claims that the U.S. always acts to promote democracy.  That's just ludicrous.


Well the CIA is a British product too.

Michael Tee

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Re: Al Qaeda Is Out of Baghdad, U.S. Says
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2007, 11:30:56 PM »
<<Well the CIA is a British product too.>>

How do you figure that?