Author Topic: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast  (Read 10934 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2007, 02:24:46 PM »
<<They very likely are hapening at a lower rate than during WWII.

<<Everything you state about coverups now was even more applicable sixty years ago.

<<Commanders in Aganistan and Iraq are trying to wn over the population  they very likely make this clear to the rank and file.>>
===========================================================================

Maybe they're starting to get it right at last.  Or maybe they're just covering up better.  Let's hope it's the former.

Plane

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2007, 02:31:28 PM »
This problem was rare in France as WWII made the French glad to see the invadeing English and Americans. Same for Duch and Danes

The Russians had more like a simular set of problems as they crossed Eastern Europe where there were more people who preferred the other invader.

Michael Tee

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2007, 03:58:20 PM »
<<The Russians had more like a simular set of problems as they crossed Eastern Europe where there were more people who preferred the other invader.>>

Yeah.  They were called collaborators, fascists, Nazis and anti-Semites.  The Russians knew how to deal with them.  Taught 'em a few lessons in payback.

Plane

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2007, 04:00:00 PM »
<<The Russians had more like a simular set of problems as they crossed Eastern Europe where there were more people who preferred the other invader.>>

Yeah.  They were called collaborators, fascists, Nazis and anti-Semites.  The Russians knew how to deal with them.  Taught 'em a few lessons in payback.


You are tolerant of this teaching?

Michael Tee

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2007, 04:03:48 PM »
<<You are tolerant of this teaching?>>

Sure, provided it's exercised on the real Nazis, fascists, anti-Semites, collaborators and anyone supporting or helping them.  The world's better off without 'em.

Plane

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2007, 04:08:36 PM »
<<You are tolerant of this teaching?>>

Sure, provided it's exercised on the real Nazis, fascists, anti-Semites, collaborators and anyone supporting or helping them.  The world's better off without 'em.


You are thereby dehumaniseing a lot of people .

Michael Tee

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2007, 05:11:28 PM »
Fuck 'em, if you really want to know about dehumanizing, study them a little more closely.

Plane

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2007, 07:56:20 PM »
Fuck 'em, if you really want to know about dehumanizing, study them a little more closely.


Perhaps we should, when given the choice between Stalin or Hitler some people had to flip a coin.

Michael Tee

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2007, 09:15:25 PM »
<<Perhaps we should, when given the choice between Stalin or Hitler some people had to flip a coin.>>

Relatively few people had any reason to expect extermination from Stalin and those that did had little to fear from Hitler.  Those targeted by Hitler had little to fear from Stalin.

People targeted for death by Hitler or Stalin knew their intended fate and had no need to flip a coin.

Of those not targeted, the choice was pretty clear in most cases.  Very few of them would have had to flip a coin, but some of them (particularly the Ukrainians) made a really bad choice.  (Bad for them, I mean.) 

One of the most comical misjudgments of the war was made by the OUN, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, who sent Hitler a congratulatory letter on his initial Eastern Front victories and offered to work hand-in-hand with him in making a world completely free of Jews.  Hitler, of course, put them in their place immediately with a letter informing them that the Third Reich did not enter into partnerships with untermenschen (sub-humans.)  Eventually, as Aryan S.S. manpower became severely depleted in the course of their encounters with the Red Army, Hitler began to form S.S. regiments composed of various kinds of untermenschen, including the Ukrainians, who often seemed to find themselves in places from which very few would ever emerge alive, the Battle of Brody being a classic example.  In the meantime, the Ukrainian Nationalists had managed to further offend Hitler and finally their leaders all wound up in concentration camps, in less than ideal circumstances.  One of them (I forget which, but it hardly matters, each one was worse than the other) was finished off when they wrapped him in sheets soaked in cold water and left him outside one freezing winter night.  Proving again the old adage, when you sup with the Devil, use a long spoon.

Most people had pretty clear choices.  The Poles were the only ones I know of who might have had to flip a coin.  Under the Germans they could expect nothing but slavery and under the Russians, more Russian oppression, from which they had only been freed in WWI.  Because of their Catholicism, there was a lot of high-level anti-Communism which was bound to lead to some mass executions of priests, intellectuals, artists and writers if the Communists won, but they were already going through this with the Nazis anyway.

This business of "flipping a coin" is mostly (with a few exceptions) pure bullshit.  It's what you hear from Nazi collaborators after the war to cover their Holocaust guilt. 

The Poles, to their credit, much as they hated the Jews, nevertheless fought the Nazis for the most part but one of their underground armies also fought the Red Army and the communist partisans as well.  Usually, as with the royalist Chetniks in Yugoslavia, or the anti-communist Ukrainian Nationalists, an underground army fighting the Nazi occupation, if it's also an anti-communist army, will wind up fighting only the communists.  It's too hard to fight a guerrilla war against both the Nazis and the Red Army and/or communist partisans.  As the war ground on, and particularly after Stalingrad, when it became apparent that the Nazis were finished, the real issue for nationalist guerrillas was who would control their post-war world, and their real objective became very clear - - to fight the local communists, and sometimes the Red Army as well,  and hope for a right-wing provisional government that could attract the support of the Western Allies.

Amianthus

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2007, 11:27:09 AM »
I have never heard anyone deny this, so I assume it is true.

Then you weren't listeing...

Quote
The Santa Fe employees worked on several rigs ''immediately adjacent'' to the Iraqi border, Mr. Mika said. He added that he was unaware of any well that might have utilized the ''slant'' drilling technique along the Iraqi bor der.

W. C. Goins, senior vice president of OGE Drilling Inc., a Houston company that provided oilfield supervisors and workers for Kuwait in the same area, said he was ''positive'' all of the wells his employees drilled and operated ran vertically down to the Rumaila pay zone. ''That field crosses the border in north Kuwait,'' he added. ''Iraqis were drilling on one side, and Kuwaitis on the other side.''
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE3D7173CF930A3575AC0A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2007, 05:34:36 PM »
<<Perhaps we should, when given the choice between Stalin or Hitler some people had to flip a coin.>>

Relatively few people had any reason to expect extermination from Stalin and those that did had little to fear from Hitler.  Those targeted by Hitler had little to fear from Stalin.

People targeted for death by Hitler or Stalin knew their intended fate and had no need to flip a coin.

Of those not targeted, the choice was pretty clear in most cases.  Very few of them would have had to flip a coin, but some of them (particularly the Ukrainians) made a really bad choice.  (Bad for them, I mean.) 


Don't forget the Finns who were much more successfull at turning a Natzi allience into a postwar nutrality.

The Finns spanked Stalins freshly purged army so badly that it emboldened the Germans to think that Stalin had killed all of the competance out of his officer corps . Not quite , perhaps if given another year of purgeing the Red Army would have been completely politicly pure and absolutely free of competance.

Stalin had no more right to kill Finns and Latvians and Ucrainians etc than Hitler had to kill Jews , Poles, Slavic peoples , Gypisys etc.

Which great leader had the higher total? Some say Stalin , some say Mao , some say Hitler I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Stalin because he had much more oppurtunity to cover up his massicres than the other two and could very well be the champion.

When given the choice of sideing with the Germans over the invasion of Finland or not , I can imagine that Chirchill kept his farthing warm with flipping . He didn't know at the time that the Soviets would become an ally to England in just two years.

Michael Tee

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2007, 06:56:06 PM »
What was the reason for the hostility between Russia and Finland?  The Finns can't be all bad because they refused to hand over their Jews when Hitler demanded them.  The Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians wanted the pleasure of massacring the Jews themselves - - one of the Lithuanian massacres was even filmed by Nazi cameramen to prove that it was the locals and not the Nazis who carried it out.   The local pro-Nazi government let common criminals out of jail, gave them iron bars and told them to beat the Jews to death with them, which they and the anti-Communist militia did together.  The Lithuanians killed men, women and children while the Nazi cameras rolled so the Germans could say, "See?  It's not us.  The local people themselves are fed up to here with the Jews." It was one of the few pogroms captured live on film during WWII.

After the war, the emigres from the "tiny, enslaved" Baltic countries who were able to escape Red Army justice made their way to the U.S.A. and began their "What could we do it was Russia or Hitler?" bullshit campaign, which appears to have taken in guys like plane by the trainload.  The Jews were paralyzed - - they couldn't say publicly that Communism would have saved them, that the anti-communists were the BAD guys because they were afraid of being slimed as "pro-Red" during the McCarthy era, also because there were so many Jewish Communist spies and Soviet agents that they were afraid of raising a new Amerikkkan Nazi party.

Plane

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2007, 07:56:51 PM »
What was the reason for the hostility between Russia and Finland?  The Finns can't be all bad because they refused to hand over their Jews when Hitler demanded them.  The Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians wanted the pleasure of massacring the Jews themselves - - one of the Lithuanian massacres was even filmed by Nazi cameramen to prove that it was the locals and not the Nazis who carried it out.   The local pro-Nazi government let common criminals out of jail, gave them iron bars and told them to beat the Jews to death with them, which they and the anti-Communist militia did together.  The Lithuanians killed men, women and children while the Nazi cameras rolled so the Germans could say, "See?  It's not us.  The local people themselves are fed up to here with the Jews." It was one of the few pogroms captured live on film during WWII.

After the war, the emigres from the "tiny, enslaved" Baltic countries who were able to escape Red Army justice made their way to the U.S.A. and began their "What could we do it was Russia or Hitler?" bullshit campaign, which appears to have taken in guys like plane by the trainload.  The Jews were paralyzed - - they couldn't say publicly that Communism would have saved them, that the anti-communists were the BAD guys because they were afraid of being slimed as "pro-Red" during the McCarthy era, also because there were so many Jewish Communist spies and Soviet agents that they were afraid of raising a new Amerikkkan Nazi party.


Land , expanding the Empire required conquering land , Finland did not absolutely win they lost a good bit of territory . The other Baltic states also had land and resorces which is why Stalin wanted them , not much diffrent from Hitler.



Quote
"The local pro-Nazi government let common criminals out of jail, gave them iron bars and told them to beat the Jews to death with them, which they and the anti-Communist militia did together."

In what land would this tecnique fail to work?


Michael Tee

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2007, 04:11:05 PM »
<<In what land would this tecnique fail to work?>>

Any land that didn't have a pro-Nazi government and a pro-Nazi militia or para-military movement. 

Any land where the people wouldn't put up with it.  Basically, the Nazi technique of letting the locals massacre the Jews worked only in the Baltic, Croatia, Romania.  Hungary was a little different because the pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic Horthy regime, while allied with Hitler, did not allow transportation of Hungarian Jews to death camps and did not have them attacked in the streets - - for that to occur, the Horthy regime had to be overthrown by a regime even more right-wing than it was, the Arrow Cross movement.  From that point onward, the Hungarian Jews were doomed, either to be transported to the death camps or taken off the streets or out of their homes to Arrow Cross torture chambers where they were tortured to death and the bodies dumped in the Danube.

Plane

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Re: 59 Children Among the Dead in "Religion of Peace" Blast
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2007, 02:48:30 AM »
<<In what land would this tecnique fail to work?>>

Any land that didn't have a pro-Nazi government and a pro-Nazi militia or paramilitary movement. 

Any land where the people wouldn't put up with it.  Basically, the Nazi technique of letting the locals massacre the Jews worked only in the Baltic, Croatia, Romania.  Hungary was a little different because the pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic Horthy regime, while allied with Hitler, did not allow transportation of Hungarian Jews to death camps and did not have them attacked in the streets - - for that to occur, the Horthy regime had to be overthrown by a regime even more right-wing than it was, the Arrow Cross movement.  From that point onward, the Hungarian Jews were doomed, either to be transported to the death camps or taken off the streets or out of their homes to Arrow Cross torture chambers where they were tortured to death and the bodies dumped in the Danube.

That is intresting about Horthy , I should read further about him.
 
Scalawags are human beings , they are in every society. This anti Jewish effort worked well  in every country that the Nazis conquered . French collaborators  were no less numerous or enthusiastic than Serb.

Think about the story you just told me , a guy is taken out of prison by a squad  of well armed soldiers , handed an iron bar and ordered to beat some people , I can imagine that some of the people he is being ordered to beat are the one who refused the same order.

Hero's are born to every nation too , but it was not in the intrest of the Nazis nor the Bolsheviks to record the hero's of Latvia.