Author Topic: The coup  (Read 2654 times)

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Lanya

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Amianthus

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Re: The coup
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2007, 01:54:29 PM »
What a load of AMBE.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Seamus

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Re: The coup
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2007, 02:52:12 PM »
What a load of AMBE.

AMBE?  :)  Newbee here..  I can imagine the E, but...  ?

Amianthus

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Re: The coup
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2007, 02:52:55 PM »
AMBE?  :)  Newbee here..  I can imagine the E, but...  ?

Adult Male Bovine Excrement.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Seamus

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Re: The coup
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2007, 03:24:36 PM »
AMBE?  :)  Newbee here..  I can imagine the E, but...  ?

Adult Male Bovine Excrement.

I knew it had to be something like that. :) :)  Thanks lol.

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2007, 11:27:40 PM »
I feel like that's about the 1000th article I've read detailing the spinelessness of the Democrats.  What is really needed is an analysis of the phenomenon.  Why AREN'T they more aggressive?  As for the 85% of Americans who DON'T feel America is on the right track, that's kind of a bullshit figure without further breakdown, how many want America to get MORE aggressive in Iraq, how many want America to pull out?  How many are happy with backing Israel, how many want to cut Israel loose?  How many want no change in torture policies, how many want more torture, how many want no torture?  How many know who Mukasey is?  How many want him?  How many don't?

Given that Bush & Co. have been a total disaster for the country, what is the popular reaction?  Approval for want of anythng better?  Willingness to do all the things the Democrats refuse to do, but expressed by people not affiliated with any political party?

Conditions may be ripe for the formation of a third political party, but you won't know it from the MSM because the numbers aren't being reported in sufficient detail. 

If there's all this dissatisfaction among the public, where and how is it being expressed as action?  If not expressed as action, why not?  And WHY are the Democrats so unaggressive?

Plane

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Re: The coup
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 12:37:17 AM »
"Why AREN'T they more aggressive?"


At the level that gets the CIA breifing sraight from the CIA they might see no better alternative choices .

Stray Pooch

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Re: The coup
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 07:00:18 AM »
I feel like that's about the 1000th article I've read detailing the spinelessness of the Democrats.  What is really needed is an analysis of the phenomenon.  Why AREN'T they more aggressive?  As for the 85% of Americans who DON'T feel America is on the right track, that's kind of a bullshit figure without further breakdown, how many want America to get MORE aggressive in Iraq, how many want America to pull out?  How many are happy with backing Israel, how many want to cut Israel loose?  How many want no change in torture policies, how many want more torture, how many want no torture?  How many know who Mukasey is?  How many want him?  How many don't?

This is the problem with using statistics obtained in polls.  What they indicate very much depends on how the questions were presented.  I hadn't really thought about it, but you make a great point that "disapproval" of US policy in Iraq might lump together people who have completely different views on what is actually wrong and how to fix it.

If there's all this dissatisfaction among the public, where and how is it being expressed as action?  If not expressed as action, why not?  And WHY are the Democrats so unaggressive?

Here is one example.  Remember when Kerry was accused of flip-flopping on the issue of the war?  Well, Kerry was, in fact, a person who tried to appease both sides of the issue, and it was fair to point it out.  Folks are doing that to Mitt Romney today.  But one thing that was both unfair and deeply foolish was the argument that Kerry voted to authorize the President to use force and then complained about his use thereof.

That's AMBE.  Kerry was absolutely right and responsible to vote, as other Dems did, to give the President the appropriate authority to act quickly and decisively in a time of national crisis.  In a system of government such as ours, especially given the size of it, waiting to debate all of the finer points of a military decision with the legislature (and possibly resolve any conflicts in the judiciary) is impractical and could be a disaster. 

That said, however, giving someone authority does not mean relieving that someone of responsibility for how they use it.  If I authorize a baby sitter to appropriately discipline my children as she feels necessary, that does not mean she can beat my kid with a stick.  If I authorize my child to use my credit card, that does not mean he can run it up to its limit buying video games.  While I disagree with Kerry's opinions about the way Bush used his authority, it is NOT flip-flopping to hold the President accountable for how he used the authority he was given.  That's why it is unfair.

Why it is foolish is that this episode can stifle appropriate interaction between the branches.  The next time a Congress is in a situation where the President needs authority to act in an emergency, many members are going to be reluctant to grant it.  It is bad enough, but inevitable, that granting any such powers comes with a potential for abuse on the part of the executive.  It is even worse when there is a (correct) perception that calling the executive on such abuse can come back to haunt you as "flip-flopping" at election time.  So Dems who voted, responsibly, to give authority to the President are under the double whammy of looking bad for "backing" him and looking like flip-floppers if they oppose him. 

The bottom line is that this dilemma paralyzes the Democrats (at least in the current case).  In the future, these situations will be far more fraught with political confusion than they were this time around.  Politics SHOULDN'T drive decisions of this sort.  National unity in times of emergency should be outside the realm of political partisanship.  But you better believe that will not be the case - especially now.

Some Democrats are not taking the actions you think they should because they do not believe them to be the best course of action.  As Plane pointed out, they may have a better perspective than you or I have.  But some are agonizing over the high political stakes.  That's a damn shame.  I know that is not how it should be, but "Profiles in Courage" was not written because such courage is common.
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Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 12:21:57 PM »
<<Here is one example.  Remember when Kerry was accused of flip-flopping on the issue of the war?  Well, Kerry was, in fact, a person who tried to appease both sides of the issue, and it was fair to point it out.  Folks are doing that to Mitt Romney today.  But one thing that was both unfair and deeply foolish was the argument that Kerry voted to authorize the President to use force and then complained about his use thereof.

<<That's AMBE.  Kerry was absolutely right and responsible to vote, as other Dems did, to give the President the appropriate authority to act quickly and decisively in a time of national crisis.  In a system of government such as ours, especially given the size of it, waiting to debate all of the finer points of a military decision with the legislature (and possibly resolve any conflicts in the judiciary) is impractical and could be a disaster. >>

That's outrageous.  The Constitution of the United States of America gives CONGRESS the right to make war.  The decision should NEVER have been delegated to the President.  The discussion over what to do about Iraq's so-called WMD had been brewing for (IIRC, and I stand to be corrected on this) weeks or months before Congress shamefully abdicated its Constitutional responsibilities.  There was no way in which this could have been considered an emergency.  The "President" had plenty of time to come up with a plan to put before the Congress, for a full debate and vote (in a secret session if warranted) or in meetings with key Congressional figures beforehand.  He should never have been given a blank cheque, but he was, and Kerry was one of those who signed it.  The President should never be given power to launch a full-scale invasion of another country.  That is the prerogative of Congress.

What is really worrying is that the whole Constitutional system is falling apart.  This kind of Presidency, complete with war-making powers, has been in place since the end of WWII.  I think the Congressional Declaration of War against Japan was the last time that Congress declared war.  The system since 1945 has moved ever closer to the old monarchical system where the monarch alone decides when to wage war.  It's a travesty.


Plane

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Re: The coup
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 12:30:51 PM »
The President still can't prevent Congress from pulling the plug on the operation.

That strikes me as a bad idea , must strike most mebers of Congress that way too.

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 02:28:40 PM »
<<The President still can't prevent Congress from pulling the plug on the operation.>.

The same sickness that led them to abdicate their responsibility keeps them from pulling the plug.  Somebody with the time and the ability ought to write a book about the rise of the one-party state and the unravelling of the Constitution in Amerikkka.

Plane

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Re: The coup
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 02:33:32 PM »
There shouldn't be a party that wants to do something bad for us .

Pulling the pug on the war is possible but the consquences to accept are severe.

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2007, 03:55:49 PM »
<<Pulling the pug on the war is possible but the consquences to accept are severe>>

That's only YOUR opinion.  Why shouldn't the people get the choice to vote for pulling out or staying in?  If pulling out's as bad as you say it is, surely they'd recognize it - - unless you're smarter than all of them.

Plane

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Re: The coup
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2007, 03:59:14 PM »
<<Pulling the pug on the war is possible but the consquences to accept are severe>>

That's only YOUR opinion.  Why shouldn't the people get the choice to vote for pulling out or staying in?  If pulling out's as bad as you say it is, surely they'd recognize it - - unless you're smarter than all of them.


Unless what?

I am glad you said it.

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2007, 04:04:37 PM »
How do you know I wasn't pulling your leg?