Author Topic: US Army Standards  (Read 2808 times)

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Plane

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US Army Standards
« on: November 12, 2007, 12:53:33 PM »
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So, what are the general qualifications to enlist in the military? This can be a difficult subject, as -- within limits imposed by Department of Defense (DOD) policies and various federal laws, each of the services are allowed to determine their own standards. In this article, we'll try to cover the main standards, but -- without writing a novel -- it would be impossible to cover them all. For specific questions, it's always best to ask your local military recruiter.

I want to mention right up front that it is a federal offense to provide false information or to withhold requested information on any United States Military Recruiting Document. For details, see our article, I Cannot Tell a Lie.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/enlstandards.htm


The US armed forces are more picky about their recruits now than they used to be , they train them harder and keep them longer than they used to.


Compared to the Army of WWII  our present army is ;
Older,
more trained,
more educated,
more urban,
more integrated,
more female,
better paid,
better armed ,
subject to more oversight,
smaller.

Is this adding up to better quality?
The more urban and more integrated part may not be.
The more female may be a loss in quality, or not , it is worth discussing.

But for those who think that the present Army has declined a lot in the past fifty years , I would like to have some input as to why they think this happened.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 01:22:02 PM by Plane »

Seamus

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 03:26:40 PM »
Quote
So, what are the general qualifications to enlist in the military? This can be a difficult subject, as -- within limits imposed by Department of Defense (DOD) policies and various federal laws, each of the services are allowed to determine their own standards. In this article, we'll try to cover the main standards, but -- without writing a novel -- it would be impossible to cover them all. For specific questions, it's always best to ask your local military recruiter.

I want to mention right up front that it is a federal offense to provide false information or to withhold requested information on any United States Military Recruiting Document. For details, see our article, I Cannot Tell a Lie.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/enlstandards.htm


The US armed forces are more picky about their recruits now than they used to be , they train them harder and keep them longer than they used to.


Compared to the Army of WWII  our present army is ;
Older,
more trained,
more educated,
more urban,
more integrated,
more female,
better paid,
better armed ,
subject to more oversight,
smaller.

Is this adding up to better quality?
The more urban and more integrated part may not be.
The more female may be a loss in quality, or not , it is worth discussing.

But for those who think that the present Army has declined a lot in the past fifty years , I would like to have some input as to why they think this happened.


More urban?  Does that mean the military is in Bakersfield rather than Los Angeles?

As for integrated, I imagine that adds a slight quality issue, but one worth dealing with.  I believe, imo, that it is akin to homosexuals in the military.  I think that currently there are enough military men and women who may have issues with race that they are possibly not focused 100% on the job at hand.  But that is where education and leadership come into play.  I also feel the same way about homosexuals in the military.  I feel they should be free to serve their country, but at the same time, I don't want our force to be weakened by the possibility of...  soldiers that have a problem with it.

More females, imo, is also possibly a SLIGHT distraction to focus.  However, I believe there has been stronger training and leadership in this arena.  I believe our men and women can focus on the job in todays society.  I am, however, a firm believer in swift punishment for rule-breaking of any kind.  Inappropriate on-the-job fraternization should be handled immediately.

Do I believe the military has declined in the past 50 years?  No.  I think we've made progress, both technologically and socially.  I am NOT so sure about ethically.   But overall I believe we are a better, more organized and stronger force to be reckoned with.

Michael Tee

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 03:53:40 PM »
I think the decline is due to one factor: discipline.  Somebody posted a list of executions of soldiers in WWII and I believe there were hundreds.  Dozens at the very least.  And NONE in Viet Nam or afterwards.  So they are getting away with murder, unpunished.  The laughable "penalty" imposed on Lt. Calley for his role in the My Lai massacre didn't start the trend, but it typified it.  The message was unmistakeable even to the dumbest private:  "Do what you want to the gooks, nothing will happen to you."

The female component I believe is overestimated.  Females such as Lynndie England and others played a prominent role in the Abu Ghraib scandals.  Besides which, most of the TV coverage of combat patrols, the guys who interact most with the local population, seem to show all-male patrols in action.

Why is the discipline weaker?  IMHO it's due to the decline in calibre of the leadership from the top down.  In WWII, there were giants like Churchill and FDR at the top.  Now you have George W. Bush.  Nuff said?

Plane

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 04:02:22 PM »
I think the decline is due to one factor: discipline.  Somebody posted a list of executions of soldiers in WWII and I believe there were hundreds.  Dozens at the very least.  And NONE in Viet Nam or afterwards.  So they are getting away with murder, unpunished.  The laughable "penalty" imposed on Lt. Calley for his role in the My Lai massacre didn't start the trend, but it typified it.  The message was unmistakeable even to the dumbest private:  "Do what you want to the gooks, nothing will happen to you."

The female component I believe is overestimated.  Females such as Lynndie England and others played a prominent role in the Abu Ghraib scandals.  Besides which, most of the TV coverage of combat patrols, the guys who interact most with the local population, seem to show all-male patrols in action.

Why is the discipline weaker?  IMHO it's due to the decline in calibre of the leadership from the top down.  In WWII, there were giants like Churchill and FDR at the top.  Now you have George W. Bush.  Nuff said?

Dsapline is not weaker if anything a modern soldier is much more likely to be caught and has stricter rules to obey.

Plane

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 04:04:47 PM »
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 04:06:30 PM by Plane »

Richpo64

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 05:01:11 PM »
>>More urban?  Does that mean the military is in Bakersfield rather than Los Angeles?<<

I'm guessing this means the soldiers themselves come from more urban communities (cities) today than in the past when they came from rural places during WWII. Most folks lived on farms back then.

Michael Tee

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 05:15:32 PM »
<<Dsapline is not weaker if anything a modern soldier is much more likely to be caught and has stricter rules to obey.>>

The death penalty stats tell you all you need to know about the decline in discipline, but the Calley case is also pretty instructive.  Today it's hard to read newspaper accounts of "punishments" for those few soldiers ever tried for crimes and atrocities in Iraq without throwing the paper at the wall.  They're ludicrous.

Plane

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 07:54:10 PM »
<<Dsapline is not weaker if anything a modern soldier is much more likely to be caught and has stricter rules to obey.>>

The death penalty stats tell you all you need to know about the decline in discipline, but the Calley case is also pretty instructive.  Today it's hard to read newspaper accounts of "punishments" for those few soldiers ever tried for crimes and atrocities in Iraq without throwing the paper at the wall.  They're ludicrous.

The lower rate of punishment reflects a lower rate of offenses.

Michael Tee

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 09:25:19 PM »
<<The lower rate of punishment reflects a lower rate of offenses.>>

It could reflect either fewer offences or laxer discipline.

In the former case, you'd expect the sentences to remain severe for the offences that still surface, but how would you explain the ludicrously low sentences handed out for the My Lai massacre and the few war crimes and atrocities that do come to trial from Iraq?  Don't they indicate that it is laxer discipline rather than fewer offences that accounts for the lack of military executions?

Stray Pooch

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 11:12:04 PM »
It could reflect either fewer offences or laxer discipline.
In the former case, you'd expect the sentences to remain severe for the offences that still surface, but how would you explain the ludicrously low sentences handed out for the My Lai massacre and the few war crimes and atrocities that do come to trial from Iraq?  Don't they indicate that it is laxer discipline rather than fewer offences that accounts for the lack of military executions?

Actually, as the military is generally a reflection of society (and surprisingly progressive in many areas) the lower penalties are a reflection of the lower penalties  for all crimes throughout US society.  Rape, for example, used to be a capital offense (it still is, in the military - but that is virtually never enforced).  But even where execution might be appropriate that extreme penalty is seldom applied (except in Texas!).  There is a misconception that military courts differ from civil courts.  In fact, they are basically the same.  It is absolutely true that a military court is likely to have a much higher CONVICTION rate, but the punishments meted out tend to be about the same as civilian courts.

One reason the conviction rate is so much higher in military courts is that there are so many safeguards and lesser tools to use before going into a courtroom.  Every soldier has the right to free legal counsel (I spelled it right that time, damn it!) and so is less likely to be railroaded.  And many offenses get handled by the chain of command using nonjudicial punishment (the ubiquitous Article XV) or adminstrative means instead of going before a judge.  So by the time all of the safeguards and alternatives have been exhausted, anything that gets to a courtroom is likely to have a high likelihood of conviction. 

It's funny you chose the word discipline, MT, because when a soldier sees that word it has a much broader definition than to a civilian.  When I first saw your post I thought "Wow, that's an interesting point coming from MT."  I was reading it from a military POV.  But you are using it in a context that is more synonymous with "punishment' than what a soldier understands as discipline.   When we talk about poor discipline, we don't mean lighter punishment, but rather lower standards of self-discipline.  Well disciplined troops, for example, will perform instinctively correctly in a battle.  They will react instantly when given a command.  They will keep their are policed, their equipment in readiness and their physical condition to a high state.  Such well-disciplined soldiers perform as teams, and almost always prevail over lesser disciplined forces.  When poorly disciplined armies are stressed, like the Union at First Bull Run, discipline fails and chaos ensues.  Of course, stricter punishments can add to that sense of discipline - though it can also detract - but the most important factor in maintaining discipline is training.  Not quibbling about your word usage, I just thought it was interesting.
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sirs

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2007, 12:26:59 AM »
It could reflect either fewer offences or laxer discipline.
In the former case, you'd expect the sentences to remain severe for the offences that still surface, but how would you explain the ludicrously low sentences handed out for the My Lai massacre and the few war crimes and atrocities that do come to trial from Iraq?  Don't they indicate that it is laxer discipline rather than fewer offences that accounts for the lack of military executions?


Actually, as the military is generally a reflection of society (and surprisingly progressive in many areas) the lower penalties are a reflection of the lower penalties 

Oh my....what a concept     ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2007, 10:26:53 AM »
Actually, as the military is generally a reflection of society (and surprisingly progressive in many areas) the lower penalties are a reflection of the lower penalties
==================================
Nonsense!

There are more Americans in jail now than ever before.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 10:39:23 AM »
<<There are more Americans in jail now than ever before.>>

And the commander in chief is not exactly an opponent of the death penalty.  He just doesn't like to see it used on American soldiers who commit war crimes.

sirs

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 11:02:31 AM »
Apparently in Xo's & Tee's alternate version of reality, our population remained constant, & never grew at all       ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: US Army Standards
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2007, 11:48:43 AM »
<<Apparently in Xo's & Tee's alternate version of reality, our population remained constant, & never grew at all >>

Well, it seems like the jailbird demographic demonstrated some healthy growth, that's for sure.