Author Topic: Are Atheists the New Gays?  (Read 4853 times)

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Richpo64

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Are Atheists the New Gays?
« on: November 12, 2007, 05:03:46 PM »
Are Atheists the New Gays?
By Dinesh D'Souza
Monday, November 12, 2007

Richard Dawkins has a bright idea: Atheists are the new gays. Is he joking? Not at all. The bestselling author of The God Delusion has been suggesting for two years now that atheists can follow the example of gays. This would put the atheists last in the line of liberation groups: first the civil rights movement, then the feminist movement, then the gay liberation movement, and now the cause of atheist liberation.

What makes Dawkins want atheists to be like gays? Dawkins explains that gays used to be called homosexual, but then they decided to pick a positive-sounding name like "gay." Suddenly the meaning of the term "gay" was entirely appropriated by homosexuals. Gays went from being defined by their enemies to defining themselves in a favorable way.

Dawkins cited this example in advocating that atheists call themselves "brights." After all, atheist is a somewhat negative term because it defines itself by what it is opposed to. "Bright" sounds so much happier and, more important, smarter. "Bright" kind of reflects the high opinion that atheists have of their own intellectual abilities. Even the stupidest village atheist gets to pat himself on the back and place himself in the tradition of science and philosophy by calling himself a "bright."

Dawkins and the philosopher Daniel Dennett have both written articles promoting the use of the term ?bright.? Not all atheists have warmed to the term, but Dawkins and Dennett clearly envision themselves as far-looking strategists of the atheist cause. But how bright, really, are they?

Dawkins has also suggested that atheists, like gays, should come out of the closet. Well, what if they don't want to? I doubt that Dawkins would support "outing" atheists. But can an atheist "rights" group be far behind? Hate crimes laws to protect atheists? Affirmative action for unbelievers? An Atheist Annual Parade, complete with dancers and floats? Atheist History Month?

Honestly, I think the whole atheist-gay analogy is quite absurd. It seems strange for Dawkins to urge atheists to come out of the closet in the style of the all-American boy standing up on the dining table of his public high school and confessing that he is a homosexual? Dawkins, being British, doesn't seem to recognize that this would not win many popularity contests in America.

If Dawkins' public relations skills seem lacking in this area, they are positively abysmal when they come to building support for science. Remember that Dawkins is professor of the public understanding of science. He has a chair funded by the Microsoft multimillionaire Charles Simonyi. If I were that guy, I'd withdraw the support, not because I disagree with Dawkins, but because I think he is setting back the cause of science.

Basically Dawkins is saying if you are religious, then science is your enemy. Either you choose God or you choose science. No wonder that so many Americans say they are opposed to evolution. They believe that evolution is atheism masquerading as science, and Dawkins confirms their suspicions. Indeed Dawkins takes the same position as the most ignorant fundamentalist: you can have Darwin or you can have the Bible but you can't have both.

Dawkins is in some ways a terrible representative for atheism, which I'm glad about because a bad cause deserves a bad leader. He is also a terrible advocate for science, which I'm sad about because science deserves all the support it can get.

Having debated Christopher Hitchens, I?d like the opportunity to debate Dawkins. I think I can vindicate a rational and scientific argument for religion against his irrational and unscientific prejudice. When I wrote Dawkins to propose such a debate, however, Dawkins said that ?upon reflection? he decided against it. He didn?t give a reason, and there is no reason.

In his writings on religion, Dawkins presents atheism as the side of reason and evidence, and religion as the side of ?blind faith.? So what?s he afraid of? How can reason possibly lose in a contest with ignorance and superstition? I have written Dawkins back offering him the most favorable terms: a debate on a secular campus like Berkeley rather than a church, with atheist Michael Shermer as the moderator, and a donor ready and willing to pay both our fees.

So I hope Dawkins takes me up on my challenge to an intellectual joust. If you want to encourage him, write Dawkins and send the email to dineshjdsouza@aol.com. I?ll forward your thoughts to our wavering atheist knight. He may want to pattern atheism on the gay rights movement, but surely he doesn?t want the world to think that he?s a sissy.


Bestselling author Dinesh D'Souza's new book What's So Great About Christianity has just been released. D?Souza is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution.

Michael Tee

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 06:30:40 PM »
<<No wonder that so many Americans say they are opposed to evolution. They believe that evolution is atheism masquerading as science, and Dawkins confirms their suspicions. >>

??  They're dumber than shit and this is somehow Dawkins' fault?    OH - kaaaaaay.

Universe Prince

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2007, 12:00:23 AM »
Ever since Dinesh D'Souza suggested basically that The U.S. political right wing and Islamic fundamentalists have a common enemy in the "cultural left", I have a very hard time taking him seriously on anything.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Stray Pooch

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2007, 12:42:31 AM »
??  They're dumber than shit and this is somehow Dawkins' fault?    OH - kaaaaaay.

No, actually, it's a rational point. Science and Atheism are two completely separate ideas.  More specifically, Evolution and Atheism are two separate ideas.  Now an Atheist is more likely to embrace evolution over creation than a theist - for the obvious reason that creation is not an option for someone who cannot fathom a creator.  But a Theist may well accept evolution.  After all, there is no reason why God may not have decided to build evolution into the biological model he created.  But by equating acceptance of scientific views with rejecting religious views, Dawkins shuts out the possibility of accomodating both.  I, personally, believe in evolution and in creation.  Dawkins would have you believe that such a viewpoint is impossible but it is perfectly rational.  When the common view becomes that you cannot believe in a scientific idea and still be religious, it becomes very easy to reject science because otherwise you feel like you reject God. 

I guess it's like me wishing that those idiots in the KKK would stop voting Republican.  I hate my friends to see me sporting a Mitt in '08 bumper sticker and think I have a sheet, cross and kerosene in my trunk.  If Dawkins makes equating atheism with science the norm, people will steer clear of both.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Brassmask

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2007, 11:29:09 AM »
As an atheist and someone who has, in small ways, had to contend with worries about my atheism being discovered (long ago), I have contended for YEARS that atheists are the next group to follow in the hallowed footsteps of others who have had to fight for their civil rights.  Like African-Americans, Women and Gays, Atheists will have to go through a period of mainstreaming. 

No one can deny that there is a form of bigotry against atheists.  Polls constantly tell of peoples' refusal to vote for an atheist for elected office.  Have there been atheists in elected office?  Of course, there have but how many have there been who were "out"?  Have there been any who tout their atheism or appear in public at atheist events?  None I can think of off the top of my head.

The odd thing about this situation is that atheists have nothing to crow about.  Of course, we could be like Dawkins and crow by calling ourselves "brights".  That seems a little silly to me.  Perhaps older African-Americans thought that self-descriptive term was a little silly.  Perhaps the people out and proud before the Stonewall riots felt silly about calling themselves "gay".  I don't know.

In the atheist "community" there are no consensuses on much.  I've met people who agree with me that an atheist should run for office and take out a full page newspaper ad declaring his/her atheism in bold letters at the bottom after spelling out specifically how to fix certain problems his/her office will face.  Of course, there are those who adamantly disagree.  When I attended an "atheist convention" (think Star Trek convention without the costumes, guest stars or hot chicks lol) in Boston in 2002, there was a political atheist there and he insisted that atheists should run stealth campaigns and then reveal they are atheists after elected.

It is certainly true that no one has ever assaulted me for being an atheist, I have had little things happen that irked the crap out of me.  I had a couple of bumper stickers ripped off my car.  I had  situation at my work one time where a superior asked me if I would take down a certificate I had gotten from the Universal Church after sending in $8 to become an ordained minister.  I replied that I would right after a lady a cube or two over took down all her religious posters.  My own parents have given me grief about it.

I dread the day my mother tries to take my kid to church with her.

We could go round and round about whether I was born an atheist and never got brainwashed enough to be a theist or if I have some personality defect that makes me want to go against the grain of society.

IN the end, atheists are a smaller minority than even gays, but that could mean that we in for a harder or an easier road to mainstream than the others.  The reality is the best way to be accepted by mainstream as atheists is to simply be the best we can and do good and stand up to ignorance and intolerance. 

(I've learned that it's not necessary to point out that religion is a poisonous mental disorder.)

sirs

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2007, 11:48:22 AM »
As an atheist and someone who has, in small ways, had to contend with worries about my atheism being discovered (long ago), I have contended for YEARS that atheists are the next group to follow in the hallowed footsteps of others who have had to fight for their civil rights.  Like African-Americans, Women and Gays, Atheists will have to go through a period of mainstreaming. 


With all due respect, Brass.......good fricken gravy.  Lemme find a really small violin to play for our poor victim Brass is, having to dare actually hear the words God, Christ, and Christianity in general conversation.  And to make him use money that has "In God we trust."  Oh, the horror.  As someone as partisan & devoted I am to the so-called Christian right, your civil rights are no more in danger than mine.  But you'll let us know when we start having sepearte drinking fountains and make you have to sit in the back of the bus for your wicked unbelief     ::)



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Richpo64

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2007, 12:06:42 PM »
>>(I've learned that it's not necessary to point out that religion is a poisonous mental disorder.)<<

Without God, Gall Is Permitted
Modern atheists have no new arguments, and they lack their forebears' charm.


BY SAM SCHULMAN
Friday, January 5, 2007 12:01 a.m. EST

When the very first population of atheists roamed the earth in the Victorian age--brought to life by Lyell's "Principles of Geology," Darwin's "Origin of Species" and other blows to religious certainty--it was the personal dimension of atheism that others found distressing. How could an atheist's oath of allegiance to the queen be trusted? It couldn't--so an atheist was not allowed to take a seat in Parliament. How could an atheist, unconstrained by a fear of eternal punishment, be held accountable to social norms of behavior? Worse than heretical, atheism was not respectable.

In the 21st century, this no longer seems to be the case. Few acquaintances of Dr. Richard Dawkins, the world's most voluble public atheist, wonder, as they might have a hundred years ago: Can I leave my wife unchaperoned in this man's company? Indeed, the atheists are now looking to turn the tables: They want to make belief itself not simply an object of intellectual derision but a cause for personal embarrassment. A new generation of publicists for atheism has emerged to tell Americans in particular that we should be ashamed to retain a majority of religious believers, that in this way we resemble the benighted, primitive peoples of the Middle East, Africa and South America instead of the enlightened citizens of Western Europe.

Thanks in part to the actions of a few jihadists in September 2001, it is believers who stand accused, not freethinkers. Among the prominent atheists who now sermonize to the believers in their midst are Dr. Dawkins, Daniel C. Dennett ("Breaking the Spell") and Sam Harris ("The End of Faith" and, more recently, "Letter to a Christian Nation"). There are others, too, like Steven Weinberg, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist, Brooke Allen (whose "Moral Minority" was a celebration of the skeptical Founders) and a host of commentators appalled by the Intelligent Design movement. The transcript of a recent symposium on the perils of religious thought can be found at a science Web site called edge.org


There are many themes to the atheist lament. A common worry is the political and social effect of religious belief. To a lot of atheists, the fate of civilization and of mankind depends on their ability to cool--or better, simply to ban--the fevered fancies of the God-intoxicated among us.
Naturally, the atheists focus their peevishness not on Muslim extremists (who advertise their hatred and violent intentions) but on the old-time Christian religion. ("Wisdom dwells with prudence," the Good Book teaches.) They can always haul out the abortion-clinic bomber if they need a boogeyman; and they can always argue as if all faiths are interchangeable: Persuade American Christians to give up their infantile attachment to God and maybe Muslims will too. In any case, they conclude: God is not necessary, God is impossible and God is not permissible if our society--or even our species--is to survive.

What is new about the new atheists? It's not their arguments. Spend as much time as you like with a pile of the recent anti-religion books, but you won't encounter a single point you didn't hear in your freshman dormitory. It's their tone that is novel. Belief, in their eyes, is not just misguided but contemptible, the product of provincial minds, the mark of people who need to be told how to think and how to vote--both of which, the new atheists assure us, they do in lockstep with the pope and Jerry Falwell.

For them, belief in God is beyond childish, it is unsuitable for children. Today's atheists are particularly disgusted by the religious training of young people--which Dr. Dawkins calls "a form of child abuse." He even floats the idea that the state should intervene to protect children from their parents' religious beliefs.

For the new atheists, believing in God is a form of stupidity, which sets off their own intelligence. They write as if they were the first to discover that biblical miracles are improbable, that Parson Weems was a fabulist, that religion is full of superstition. They write as if great minds had never before wrestled with the big questions of creation, moral law and the contending versions of revealed truth. They argue as if these questions are easily answered by their own blunt materialism. Most of all, they assume that no intelligent, reflective person could ever defend religion rather than dismiss it. The reviewer of Dr. Dawkins's volume in a recent New York Review of Books noted his unwillingness to take theology seriously, a starting point for any considered debate over religion.

The faith that the new atheists describe is a simple-minded parody. It is impossible to see within it what might have preoccupied great artists and thinkers like Homer, Milton, Michelangelo, Newton and Spinoza--let alone Aquinas, Dr. Johnson, Kierkegaard, Goya, Cardinal Newman, Reinhold Niebuhr or, for that matter, Albert Einstein. But to pass over this deeper faith--the kind that engaged the great minds of Western history--is to diminish the loss of faith too. The new atheists are separated from the old by their shallowness.

To read the accounts of the first generation of atheists is profoundly moving. Matthew Arnold wrote of the "eternal note of sadness" sounded when the "Sea of Faith" receded from human life. In one testament after another--George Eliot, Carlyle, Hardy, Darwin himself--the Victorians described the sense of grief they felt when religion goes--and the keen, often pathetic attempts to replace it by love, by art, by good works, by risk-seeking and--fatally--by politics.

God did not exist, they concluded, but there was no denying that this supposed truth was accompanied by a painful sense of being cut off from human fellowship as well as divine love. To counter it, religious figures developed a new kind of mission--like that of the former unbeliever C.S. Lewis: They could speak to the feeling of longing that unbelief engenders because they understood it--and sympathized not only with atheism's pain but with the many sensible arguments in its favor.

There is no such sympathy among the new apostles of atheism--to find it, one has to look to believers. Anyone who has actually taught young people and listened to them knows that it is often the students who come from a trained sectarian background--Catholic, Orthodox Jewish, Muslim, Mormon--who are best at grasping different systems of belief and unbelief. Such students know, at least, what it feels like to have such a system, and can understand those who have very different ones. The new atheists remind me of other students from more "open-minded" homes--rigid, indifferent, puzzled by thought and incapable of sympathy.

The new atheists fail too often simply for want of charm or skill. Twenty-first century atheism hasn't found its H.G. Wells or its George Bernard Shaw, men who flattered their audiences, excited them and persuaded them by making them feel intelligent. Here is Sam Harris, for instance, addressing those who wonder if destroying human embryos in the process of stem cell research might be morally dicey: "Your qualms . . . are obscene."
The atheists say that they are addressing believers. Rationalists all, can they believe that believers would be swayed by such contumely and condescension? They seem instead to be preaching to people exactly like themselves--a remarkably incurious elite.

Mr. Schulman is publishing director of the American, a magazine of ideas for business leaders.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110009482

The_Professor

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2007, 01:03:11 PM »
Pooch: "I hate my friends to see me sporting a Mitt in '08 bumper sticker and think I have a sheet, cross and kerosene in my trunk. "

Well, pursue my approach. I have a "Spock and Kirk 2008 Building a Safer Federation" bumper sticker on mine. I guess this means I have a phaser in my trunk?   :D
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 01:09:04 PM by The_Professor »
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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2007, 01:08:34 PM »
<<No wonder that so many Americans say they are opposed to evolution. They believe that evolution is atheism masquerading as science, and Dawkins confirms their suspicions. >>

??  They're dumber than shit and this is somehow Dawkins' fault?    OH - kaaaaaay.

Well, a deeply devout Jewish friend of mine believes that Evolution is tyranny of the deficient mind that is infllicted upon man by sin-tet-nun sofit (Numbers, Samuel, Zechariah,etc.)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 01:18:54 PM by The_Professor »
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sirs

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2007, 01:14:33 PM »
Pooch: "I hate my friends to see me sporting a Mitt in '08 bumper sticker and think I have a sheet, cross and kerosene in my trunk. "

Well, pursue my approach. I have a "Spock and Kirk 2008 Building a Safer Federation" bumper sticker on mine. I guess this means I have a phaser in my trunk?    :D

LOL.....set for stun, I hope.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 01:45:16 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

The_Professor

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2007, 01:28:53 PM »
As an atheist and someone who has, in small ways, had to contend with worries about my atheism being discovered (long ago), I have contended for YEARS that atheists are the next group to follow in the hallowed footsteps of others who have had to fight for their civil rights.  Like African-Americans, Women and Gays, Atheists will have to go through a period of mainstreaming. 

No one can deny that there is a form of bigotry against atheists.  Polls constantly tell of peoples' refusal to vote for an atheist for elected office.  Have there been atheists in elected office?  Of course, there have but how many have there been who were "out"?  Have there been any who tout their atheism or appear in public at atheist events?  None I can think of off the top of my head.

The odd thing about this situation is that atheists have nothing to crow about.  Of course, we could be like Dawkins and crow by calling ourselves "brights".  That seems a little silly to me.  Perhaps older African-Americans thought that self-descriptive term was a little silly.  Perhaps the people out and proud before the Stonewall riots felt silly about calling themselves "gay".  I don't know.

In the atheist "community" there are no consensuses on much.  I've met people who agree with me that an atheist should run for office and take out a full page newspaper ad declaring his/her atheism in bold letters at the bottom after spelling out specifically how to fix certain problems his/her office will face.  Of course, there are those who adamantly disagree.  When I attended an "atheist convention" (think Star Trek convention without the costumes, guest stars or hot chicks lol) in Boston in 2002, there was a political atheist there and he insisted that atheists should run stealth campaigns and then reveal they are atheists after elected.

It is certainly true that no one has ever assaulted me for being an atheist, I have had little things happen that irked the crap out of me.  I had a couple of bumper stickers ripped off my car.  I had  situation at my work one time where a superior asked me if I would take down a certificate I had gotten from the Universal Church after sending in $8 to become an ordained minister.  I replied that I would right after a lady a cube or two over took down all her religious posters.  My own parents have given me grief about it.

I dread the day my mother tries to take my kid to church with her.

We could go round and round about whether I was born an atheist and never got brainwashed enough to be a theist or if I have some personality defect that makes me want to go against the grain of society.

IN the end, atheists are a smaller minority than even gays, but that could mean that we in for a harder or an easier road to mainstream than the others.  The reality is the best way to be accepted by mainstream as atheists is to simply be the best we can and do good and stand up to ignorance and intolerance. 

(I've learned that it's not necessary to point out that religion is a poisonous mental disorder.)

Well, I might suggest that running as an out-and-out atheist might not be wise since you live in the South, e.g. Memphis. The South has not been  as corrupted with Godless ideas as the Northeast. Why not move to Maine and try it there? No, even Jessica Fletcher might not vote for you there. How about Vermont then? Or New Hampshire? Or, Ted Kennedy's backyard of Massachusetts? He can't swim, but perhaps he knows God. One out of two ain't bad, I suppose.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 09:54:00 AM by The_Professor »
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

BT

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2007, 01:56:35 PM »
Quote
(I've learned that it's not necessary to point out that religion is a poisonous mental disorder.)

baby steps

Richpo64

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 02:47:14 PM »
>>(I've learned that it's not necessary to point out that religion is a poisonous mental disorder.)<<

>> Baby steps.<<


Yeah, this from the guy who believes 9-11 was an inside job.

Brassmask

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 10:00:11 PM »
Quote
Naturally, the atheists focus their peevishness not on Muslim extremists (who advertise their hatred and violent intentions) but on the old-time Christian religion.


I've never had a muslim knock on my door, stick his foot in and try to shove a tract in my hand.  I've never had a muslim preacher inform my mother (in front of my sister) that maybe they might be better off at a shiite mosque rather than this sunni one they'd attended for five years since it became common knowledge that she was divorced.

I've seen muslims on tv protesting but I can only take the word of the likes of Katie Couric that they are chanting Death to America.  (And considering how Reagan turned a blind eye to Saddam gassing his own people and lots and lots of Iranians, can you really blame them that much?  Also, when you take into effect how America has constantly bullied the middle east around including the oh so benevolent way we just took palestine and gave it to the Jews just 'cause they used to live there, can you really blame them for being at the very least pissed?  I wonder what the right's reaction would be if a Dem president conspired with the UN to turn Florida over to a group of Seminoles whilst kicking Floridians out and allowing the Seminoles to have tanks, fighter jets and blackhawks to kick the shit out of the Floridians at will.)

I assume that the author might be trying to drop the 9.11 line without saying "9.11" and that's fine since the alleged (never convicted EVER or even indicted) perpetrators were supposedly "muslims" but how many times have I been berated by right to lifers and general righties that abortion clinic bombers are not representative of all christians?  How many times have we heard that the government doesn't target people because of their religion?  Many of each, I assure you.

Thinking over my years on this bright, blue ball, I can only think of one actual and real muslim that I have known and I can't even remember his name.  I only know that I always see him at peace rallies and war protests.  My buddy knows him through another friend and I was introduced to him once at one of those rallies and he shook my hand like a middle eastern Bill Clinton.  And he never once mentioned Allah nor uttered "death to America".

Now, in my experience, should I deride and hold in contempt for their beliefs?  Those that are thousands of miles away and may actually have some kind of abstract beef or those are next door looking down on "others"?


Richpo64

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Re: Are Atheists the New Gays?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2007, 10:03:56 PM »
>>Now, in my experience, should I deride and hold in contempt for their beliefs?  Those that are thousands of miles away and may actually have some kind of abstract beef or those are next door looking down on "others"?<<

I see, so you're not really an athiest, you're just an obnoxious anti Christian bigot.