Author Topic: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.  (Read 2423 times)

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Richpo64

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Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« on: November 16, 2007, 02:59:48 PM »
Coping with Victory

By James W. Ceaser
WeeklyStandard.com | 11/16/2007

WILL ANY OF the Democratic candidates be able to summon the courage to concede an American victory in Iraq?

No one, of course, can know the ultimate outcome of this long war. But the vaunted "facts on the ground" now at least admit a trend leading to what might reasonably be called victory: a suppression of the insurgency; a steep reduction in the level of domestic, sectarian violence; the existence of a constitutional government not unfriendly to America; a gradual reduction of American force presence with diminishing American casualties; and the assurance for a period of a continued base of operations from which to handle other possible contingencies in the region.

But if this outcome "on the ground" can be called victory--and why should it not be?--there is a huge potential problem looming in our ability to acknowledge it. Generic opinion polls for the presidential election all indicate a much better than even chance that a Democrat will be elected president next year. All of the Democrats now have been running on a platform that, if it does not recognize defeat, certainly does not envisage victory. And moving beyond the candidates, a large part of the Democratic base is heavily invested in defeat, which is seen as condign punishment for a despised president.

Imagine then the dilemma facing a Democratic president with a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress. It might be too much to think that steps would be taken to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, although a lack of firm policies and rigor in the endgame could have that effect. More plausibly, if victory is near, could the new president proclaim it and cement its benefits for America's future strategic role? Could the new president suspend his or her disbelief and accord the full measure of praise to a general who had saved the day? Could that president give full honor to the American troops, not just for their service--that's always easy--but for their achievement in winning. Could that president show up on an Army bases and declare, in full-throated pride, well-done and mission accomplished?

Historians can cite many instances of nations that have been pulled apart by the difficulty of dealing with defeat in war. Will America be the rare case of a nation that is unable to cope with a victory?

The nation needs very much a way out of this potential dilemma, and both parties must play a role. Democratic leaders need to be given enough space, if any of them will take it, to stand down without facing undue recrimination. And the Democrats need not admit too much. No Democratic candidate could or would ever say that the Iraq War was wisely entered upon, or that its costs were not way too high. All Democrats can claim that for years their criticisms were correct: that there was no winning strategy, that the means employed never matched the ends that were sought, that until just yesterday the situation looked more bleak than it did on the days following the fall of Baghdad in 2003. As legislators, not executives, it was never the Democrats' role to assume full responsibility for the conduct of the war. It was their prerogative, even their duty, to point up many of the flaws and faults of the policy.

All this in the way of criticism--and much more--is fully the "right" of any Democrat. But a Democratic president must be able to step forward from this line and separate himself (or herself) from the destructive passion that would prefer to see the nation lose rather than President Bush win. A larger Democratic figure, in stature, would be able to put the criticisms behind and, beginning from the situation where we are, be prepared to "move on" and assure the nation that it could reap all the benefits of the sacrifices that many have made.

There should be, after all, much to assuage angry Democrats. Although they have not yet gotten their prized plum, the presidency, they have already seen Republicans pay a significant price for the Iraq war. However President Bush may be judged by history (and fortunately for the Democrats, most historians are liberals), he is today sunk in historically low opinion ratings and likely to leave office an unpopular figure. The Democrats, largely because of the war, regained the majority in Congress in 2006. The political "realignment" of which many Republican spoke in 2004 now appears little more than an old dream. The Paul Krugmans, E. J. Dionnes, and Harold Meyersons of the world have all taken their pound of flesh. Is this not enough?

America is regularly referred to as a superpower. But the truth is that this nation's record in military engagements since World War II is less than stellar. Blame it on the statesmen, or the military, or the public, it does not really matter. It is the end result that counts. America fought to a standoff in Korea and suffered a defeat in Vietnam before the military successes of the first Gulf War and (initially) in Afghanistan. Other uses of force have also produced a mixed record: positive outcomes in Grenada, Panama, and Kosovo, failures in Lebanon, Iran, and Somalia. To be a true super power, it is important to win wars. It is especially important not to demand defeat when victory might be possible.


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James W. Ceaser is professor of politics at the University of Virginia and coauthor, most recently, of Red over Blue: The 2004 Elections and American Politics.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 03:54:40 PM »
When the British left India, this was not a victory.
When the French left Algeria, that was no victory, either.
It was not a victory when Portugal left Angola, Cabinda, Guinea-Bissau and the Cabo Verdes, either.
The Brits were in India since the 1700's, the French in Algeria from the 1840's, the Portuguese in their colonies since the 1500's.

Nevertheless, it was the right thing to do, and each of these countries benefitted from it, just as the US will benefit from leaving Iraq.

No superpower has ever existed that has won all its wars.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 11:19:42 PM »
Win or lose we need to leave Iraq , winning is better.

sirs

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2007, 12:06:23 PM »
I'm still waiting for some evidence that demonstrates how this is "all about Amerikkka getting it's hands on Iraqi oil."  I mean if that was THE #1 reason, then by golly, we must be putting in every resource to annex and procure said Iraqi oil wells, for the U.S.  A few photots of some platoons surrounding each well perhaps would help in this perfectly irrat...I mean rational accusation.  Oil prices coming down here in the U.S. would obviously be following suit.  That is what we went tin for, right?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2007, 12:29:00 PM »
I'm still waiting for some evidence that demonstrates how this is "all about Amerikkka getting it's hands on Iraqi oil."  I mean if that was THE #1 reason, then by golly, we must be putting in every resource to annex and procure said Iraqi oil wells, for the U.S.  A few photots of some platoons surrounding each well perhaps would help in this perfectly irrat...I mean rational accusation.  Oil prices coming down here in the U.S. would obviously be following suit.  That is what we went tin for, right?

We could harvest the oil all the better without makeing peace or reforming the government.

sirs

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2007, 12:39:51 PM »
We could harvest the oil all the better without makeing peace or reforming the government.

Absolutely
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2007, 01:14:41 PM »
<<We could harvest the oil all the better without makeing peace or reforming the government.>>

Sure you could.  Just march in and seize the oil in defiance of all international law and in flagrant breach of the Charter of the United Nations.

Even Adolf Hitler had to invent a pretext for the invasion of Poland, even the Japs had to claim that the scrap iron embargo justified their attack, but you guys could break new ground.  No excuses, no apologies.

Obviously living in some fantasy world of your own where not only does the U.S. frequently break international law as in the real world, it doesn't even bother to PRETEND that it's a law-abiding member of the world community.

sirs

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2007, 01:20:11 PM »
<<We could harvest the oil all the better without makeing peace or reforming the government.>>

Sure you could.  Just march in and seize the oil in defiance of all international law and in flagrant breach of the Charter of the United Nations.

LOL, didn't stop us from supposedly flagarantly violating supposed international law by going into Iraq.  Where's your consistency Tee?  Is the U.S. this evil "doesn't care what any other foreign body thinks" entity, or not??      ::)

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2007, 01:36:20 PM »
<<LOL, didn't stop us from supposedly flagarantly violating supposed international law by going into Iraq.>>

You went in with a phony excuse.  When that proved to be a lie, you found another phony excuse.  Neither excuse would have been consistent with a simple seizure of the oil wells.   The fact is that you needed an excuse to invade.  You seem to think you could have done it without an excuse.  There's no way.

<<  Where's your consistency Tee?  Is the U.S. this evil "doesn't care what any other foreign body thinks" entity, or not?? >>

You're the one who equates evil with not caring about world opinion.  I pointed out that even Hitler cared enough about world opinion to invent a phony excuse.  My God, man, you are surely not going to claim that the U.S. is more evil than Hitler's Germany?

BTW, the phony excuses aren't ONLY for "world opinion."  There are still plenty of Amerikkkans who need to be nourished by the phony bullshit that Amerikkka is good, that it DOESN'T invade other nations to steal their wealth (despite numerous examples to the contrary including the Mexican, Indian and Spanish-American wars.)  Those phony excuses are as much for the boobs INSIDE Amerikkka as for the world beyond.

sirs

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2007, 04:58:57 PM »
And of course, you'll let us know when you do come across any of those people....you know, the ones who believe America can do no wrong, is pure as the winter's snow.  We'll all wait patiently

*whistle*
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2007, 05:09:10 PM »
Huh?  So now the debate is whether or not I can find anyone who believes that America is as pure as new-fallen snow and can do no wrong?  Can I find such people?  Are there any such people?  If there are, where are they? 

Sorry, sirs, you don't get to divert the subject so easily.  The subject was whether or not Amerikkka really invaded Iraq for the oil.  Your argument seems to be, If they were gonna do that, why not just grab the oil wells, throw up a perimeter around them and let everything beyond the perimeter just go to hell in a handbasket.  And my argument against that was basically that they CAN'T do that because it would be an affront to world opinion and even to domestic public opinion, at least some of which is so stupid as to actually believe that Amerikkka does good in the world and is not basically an evil nation.

sirs

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2007, 05:15:53 PM »
Huh?  So now the debate is whether or not I can find anyone who believes that America is as pure as new-fallen snow and can do no wrong? 

That sure as hell seemed to be your hyperbolic implication.  Did you have an alternate definition behind "There are still plenty of Amerikkkans who need to be nourished by the phony bullshit that Amerikkka is good, that it DOESN'T invade other nations to steal their wealth" ??  Or just that they must be out there?  News Flash Tee....Elvis Factor, there's gonna be about 5-10% of the population that believes Elvis is still alive, that the moon landing was faked, that America can do no wrong.  So, outside of that, I have no idea what point you'd be trying to make with your above diatribe
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2007, 05:22:12 PM »
Sorry, sirs, but I believe you and I both know what the subject of this thread is.  And I don't mean to get side-tracked into discussions of Elvis, moon landings, etc. 

When you want to get back to discussing your ludicrous theory that an elected American administration like Bush's can afford to show more contempt for world and domestic opinion than even Adolf Hitler was willing to display, then get back to me.  Otherwise, Elvis?  moon landings? etc.  Sorry.  Not biting.

sirs

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2007, 05:28:40 PM »
So, no examples, just more or your baseless, factless say so.  Gotcha
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Coping with Victory: The Democrats' dilemma.
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2007, 05:37:12 PM »
<<So, no examples, just more or your baseless, factless say so.  Gotcha>>

Well, no, not totally baseless and factless.  I believe there were some photos.  Some videos.  A whole lot more that the Pentagon still won't release.  A few guilty pleas.  Even a conviction of some low-life sergeant.  A lot of mickey-mouse wrist-slapping from the military "courts."  Actually a shitload of facts, examples, evidence, etc.  I understand that your refusal to admit their existence is determined and steadfast, but - - sirs - - that really doesn't change anything.  Abu Ghraib and Baghram Base (as well as other bases whose names I just have forgotten) were in fact Amerikkkan-run torture chambers.  Sorry  'bout that.