llegal immigrant rescues boy

[BT]

First you need to answer the question of what the state owns. Does it own your business? Your land? Your labor?

In principle yes, in reality no.

The state is quite able to put a lien on all of the above.

[The_Professor]

And this encompasses the State, not only the state.

[Religious Dick]

First you need to answer the question of what the state owns. Does it own your business? Your land? Your labor?

In principle yes, in reality no.

The state is quite able to put a lien on all of the above.

Well, I think the relationship is a little more complicated than that. You have the property rights, but as a regent for the sovereign (the people, in this case), and the enforcer of property rights, the state has what I think of as meta-property rights. Your right to your property isn't absolute. It's contingent on lawful use of the property. Constitutionally the restriction is that you may not be deprived of it without due process of law.

[Universe Prince]

The problem, UP, is that you are suggesting that the government should have no role - including that of defending our borders.

I'm not saying that at all. As I have said before, I am okay with checkpoints, and I'd probably be okay with fingerprint scans. But I see nothing beneficial in the current immigration bureaucracy. I see no reason to interfere with people coming here to get a job.

Here is one simple statistic that brings this issue home to me.  This past summer, I volunteered to become a literacy/ESL tutor (though an unexpected change in my life made me have to drop it.)  I began the training and we were told that this year, in the city of Harrisonburg, 47 percent - almost half - of the Kindergarten population were ESL students.  This is a rapidly growing city and much of the growth comes from immigration.  Not all are Hispanic.  We have Russians, Kurds, Bosnians and other ethnic groups.  But the vast majority is Spanish-speaking.   This is no longer the small city it was a decade ago when I moved here.  We are rapidly growing and have even managed to capture some dubious recognition.  Two of our city's fine citizens have been featured "guests" on "America's Most Wanted."  Reader's Digest prominently mentioned an MS-13 murder victim from our shady little valley in a story about growing gang threats.  The DEA has identified this city as one of the major sources of Crystal Meth on the East Coast.  Some DMV workers were busted shortly after 9-11 creating false IDs and Driver's licenses for illegals.  This city, which was safe and quiet only a few years ago, has become a dangerous place with muggings and other violent crime becoming commonplace.   Not all of this, of course, is solely due to immigration.  But a lot of it is.

When the laws essentially entrench a black market underground in immigration and labor trade, why would you expect a different outcome?

It is not a basic right to enter someone else's lands, homes or property and take that which does not belong to you.

I agree completely.

Violating my borders is NOT trespassing on the government's land.  It is trespassing on MY land.

Perhaps, but someone crossing the U.S. border is not tresspassing on your land unless your land is on the border and the someone steps on your land. People move from state to state within the U.S. all the time, and yet I see no one saying that such a violation of private property. I see no reason at all why someone crossing the U.S border would be trespassing when crossing the nearest state-to-state border is not. Someone coming here to find work is not stealing any more than someone moving from Wyoming to California to look for work would be stealing. Why can we allow one but not the other? Yes, I know it's a national border, and I am willing to make allowances for that. But I see no good reason to trample on the poor immigrants and would-be immigrants who want to do what people within the country do all the time: find employment in a different place.

[Universe Prince]

I fail to see why as an American citizen, I should have no say in whether there should be laws regarding who gets to enter my country,

No one said you should be denied a say. I'm sure David Duke would like to have a say too. Doesn't mean I'm going to agree with either of you. But I fail to see why you, as an American citizen, should be sticking your nose into other people's business that does not concern you.

[Universe Prince]

First you need to answer the question of what the state owns. Does it own your business? Your land? Your labor?

In principle yes, in reality no.

The state is quite able to put a lien on all of the above.

So you think the government owns you. I don't. Hence our disagreement.

[Universe Prince]

Your right to your property isn't absolute. It's contingent on lawful use of the property.

My liberty might not be absolute. But the right is.

[Xavier_Onassis]

 But I fail to see why you, as an American citizen, should be sticking your nose into other people's business that does not concern you.

=====================================================
This does indeed concern me. If an unnecessary abundance of Spanish teachers are admitted to the US, the law of supply and demand will drive down the salary of everyone else in the field.

And being as they will no doubt have Hispanic names, they will be given precedence in being hired ahead of me, withoiut regard to competence or qualifications.

It concerns all Americans when the borders are thrown open willy-nilly. We have to pay to be educated in the US, the immigrants pay less.

This is most certainly my business.  Once I applied for a job and was at the top oif the list, when a Chilean immigrant applied for the same job. Because of EEOC requirements that a certain number of Hispanics be hired by the university, he was given the job. He was also paid more than I was told that the job paid.

The EEOC was supposed to be used to exist because people had discriminated against Mexican American and Puerto Rican US citizens in the past, not to give special rewards to recent non-citizen immigrants from Chile.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No one said you should be denied a say. I'm sure David Duke would like to have a say too. Doesn't mean I'm going to agree with either of you.

I imagine that a majority of Americans would agree with me, that immigration should be determined by the citizens that live here, rather than according to your demented view that supply and demand are somehow holy inalienable rights.

The fact is that we are NOT granted a say in this. I can vote for or against two senators and one representative, and I can write them with my opinions. Generally they answer back with noncommital letters that promise nothing at all other than that they "are concerned with the issue".

Juniorbush's plan for immigration was pretty much the only thing he has done that I agree with, but it was not passed and won't be passed.

The most likely thing that will happen is that there will be no change in the law, and the laws on the books will continue to not be enforced. Every years there will be more and more illegals, and here in Miami the result is that there will be a higher and higher percentage of illegals working off the books, not being paid SS, not paying taxes, not being paid even the measley minimum wage. There will be more and more beggars on the streets, outside every store, pestering motorists at every onramp to the freeways, more and more snatch and grab robberies, carjackings, people with no insurance getting treated at the ER of Jackson Memorial Hospital.


If you want to see what your asshole idealistic pseudo libertarian dream actually looks like, just come to Miami-Dade County.

[Religious Dick]

Your right to your property isn't absolute. It's contingent on lawful use of the property.

My liberty might not be absolute. But the right is.

Your rights are like your money - they're only as good as the willingness of the community you participate in to recognize them. Unless you happen to be a one man invincible army, that is.

[Religious Dick]

This is most certainly my business.  Once I applied for a job and was at the top oif the list, when a Chilean immigrant applied for the same job. Because of EEOC requirements that a certain number of Hispanics be hired by the university, he was given the job. He was also paid more than I was told that the job paid.

The EEOC was supposed to be used to exist because people had discriminated against Mexican American and Puerto Rican US citizens in the past, not to give special rewards to recent non-citizen immigrants from Chile.

Welcome to the Republican party. 

[BT]

So you think the government owns you. I don't. Hence our disagreement.

I didn't say that.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Welcome to the Republican party.  Wink

The Republican Party will not cause any changes to EEOC. Universities will continue trying to raise the percentage of Hispanic-surnamed individuals in harmony with the population. Despite the fact that the aggrieved parties in years past were Mexican American and Puerto Rican US citizens, they continue to hire mostly Cubans here in Miami-Dade County, and it matters not a whit that they are residents rather than citizens. They are more easily placed in Foreign language departments, because there they are not just a majority, but an exclusivity in both of the county's two largest universities.

Most Cubans are Republican, by the way.

My daughter's mother was born in Mexico, but my daughter could not claim that she deserves any special attention from EEOC, because her surname is not Hispanic. If just one of four grandparents had been a Martinez, or one of eight great grandparents had been an Alvarez, then she would have been 'in like Flinn' (or more likely like Fernandez.

The Republicans are even more incompetent than the Democrats in nearly every aspect, and I do not identify with them at all.

[Universe Prince]

This does indeed concern me. If an unnecessary abundance of Spanish teachers are admitted to the US, the law of supply and demand will drive down the salary of everyone else in the field.

And being as they will no doubt have Hispanic names, they will be given precedence in being hired ahead of me, withoiut regard to competence or qualifications.

So you have personal reasons to want to keep the Mexicans out. This strengthens your argument not a bit.

It concerns all Americans when the borders are thrown open willy-nilly. We have to pay to be educated in the US, the immigrants pay less.

Why would they pay less in taxes than anyone else?

This is most certainly my business.  Once I applied for a job and was at the top oif the list, when a Chilean immigrant applied for the same job. Because of EEOC requirements that a certain number of Hispanics be hired by the university, he was given the job. He was also paid more than I was told that the job paid.

I see, you're worried immigrants are going to take your job away. You've got yours, so, keep the bastards out, eh?

The EEOC was supposed to be used to exist because people had discriminated against Mexican American and Puerto Rican US citizens in the past, not to give special rewards to recent non-citizen immigrants from Chile.

Heh. You know I hear David Duke is against affirmative action too.

I imagine that a majority of Americans would agree with me, that immigration should be determined by the citizens that live here, rather than according to your demented view that supply and demand are somehow holy inalienable rights.

That is not my view. Considering how much you hate capitalism, I figured you'd be on the side of the worker. But I'm concerned with the workers, and you're the only one bitching about supply and demand.

The most likely thing that will happen is that there will be no change in the law, and the laws on the books will continue to not be enforced. Every years there will be more and more illegals, and here in Miami the result is that there will be a higher and higher percentage of illegals working off the books, not being paid SS, not paying taxes, not being paid even the measley minimum wage. There will be more and more beggars on the streets, outside every store, pestering motorists at every onramp to the freeways, more and more snatch and grab robberies, carjackings, people with no insurance getting treated at the ER of Jackson Memorial Hospital.


If you want to see what your asshole idealistic pseudo libertarian dream actually looks like, just come to Miami-Dade County.

My libertarian, uh, dream does not involve a black market in labor. I'm actually arguing against that. So, no, Miami-Dade Country would not look anything like it. Pay attention.

[Universe Prince]

So you think the government owns you. I don't. Hence our disagreement.

I didn't say that.

Hm. No, I suppose not. The government owns your land and your labor in principle, I believe you said. Not a whole lot of difference there that I can see, but okay. Still, I disagree.

[BT]

The government owns your land and your labor in principle, I believe you said.

Didn't say that either. I said in reality the government under certain conditions can own your property and your labor. A lien is one way they would do this. And a lien would be placed upon your property and labor only if you failed to live up to your end of the social contract.

Tax and child support are two examples.