Author Topic: What to do....what to do  (Read 2028 times)

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sirs

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What to do....what to do
« on: November 24, 2007, 09:02:14 PM »
Can't have this war actually working in our favor now.......that'd be terrible (for Democrats of course)

As Democrats See Iraq Gains, a Shift in Tone
 
By PATRICK HEALY
Published: November 25, 2007

As violence declines in Baghdad, the leading Democratic presidential candidates are undertaking a new and challenging balancing act on Iraq: acknowledging that success, trying to shift the focus to the lack of political progress there, and highlighting more domestic concerns like health care and the economy.

Advisers to Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama say that the candidates have watched security conditions improve after the troop escalation in Iraq and concluded that it would be folly not to acknowledge those gains. At the same time, they are arguing that American casualties are still too high, that a quick withdrawal is the only way to end the war and that the so-called surge in additional troops has not paid off in political progress in Iraq.

But the changing situation suggests for the first time that the politics of the war could shift in the general election next year, particularly if the gains continue. While the Democratic candidates are continuing to assail the war ? a popular position with many of the party?s primary voters ? they run the risk that Republicans will use those critiques to attack the party?s nominee in the general election as defeatist and lacking faith in the American military.

If security continues to improve, President Bush could become less of a drag on his party, too, and Republicans may have an easier time zeroing in on other issues, such as how the Democrats have proposed raising taxes in difficult economic times.

?The politics of Iraq are going to change dramatically in the general election, assuming Iraq continues to show some hopefulness,? said Michael E. O?Hanlon, a senior foreign policy fellow at the Brookings Institution who is a supporter of Mrs. Clinton?s and a proponent of the military buildup. ?If Iraq looks at least partly salvageable, it will be important to explain as a candidate how you would salvage it ? how you would get our troops out and not lose the war. The Democrats need to be very careful with what they say and not hem themselves in.?

At the same time, there is no assurance that the ebbing of violence is more than a respite or represents a real trend that could lead to lasting political stability or coax those who have fled the capital to return to their homes. Past military successes have faded with new rounds of car bombings and kidnappings.

Neither Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Obama nor the other Democratic candidates have backed away from their original opposition to the troop escalation, and they all still favor a quick withdrawal from Iraq. But Mrs. Clinton, for one, has not said how quickly she would remove most combat forces from Iraq or how many she would leave there as president. Former Senator John Edwards, by contrast, has emphasized that he would remove all combat troops from the country, while Mr. Obama favors withdrawal at a rate of one to two brigades a month. Those plans stand in contrast to the latest American strategy of keeping most American combat brigades in Iraq but giving them an expanded role in training and supporting Iraqi forces.

Lately, as the killing in Baghdad and other areas has declined, the Democratic candidates have been dwelling less on the results of the troop escalation than on the lack of new government accords in Iraq ? a tonal shift from last summer and fall when American military commanders were preparing to testify before Congress asking for more time to allow the surge to show results.

This is a delicate matter. By saying the effects of the troop escalation have not led to a healthier political environment, the candidates are tacitly acknowledging that the additional troops have, in fact, made a difference on the ground ? a viewpoint many Democratic voters might not embrace.

?Our troops are the best in the world; if you increase their numbers they are going to make a difference,? Mrs. Clinton said in a statement after her aides were asked about her views on the ebbing violence in Baghdad.

?The fundamental point here is that the purpose of the surge was to create space for political reconciliation and that has not happened, and there is no indication that it is going to happen, or that the Iraqis will meet the political benchmarks,? she said. ?We need to stop refereeing their civil war and start getting out of it.?

While the war remains a top issue for many Democratic voters, the candidates are also turning to pocketbook concerns with new intensity as the nominating contests approach in early January. Mrs. Clinton devoted a week to her energy plans recently, and spent Monday and Tuesday talking about the economy. Mr. Obama, meanwhile, still draws strong applause from audiences when he criticizes Congress for authorizing the war and Mr. Bush for waging it, but he is increasingly highlighting other concerns.

?We?ve never seen gas above $3 in November,? Mr. Obama told a crowd on a recent evening in Allison, Iowa. ?People are working harder for less. Folks are maxing out on their credit cards, trying to stay afloat. People are struggling. And it doesn?t seem like Washington is listening.?

Mr. Obama?s spokesman, Bill Burton, said in an interview that the reduction of violence in Iraq was ?welcome news,? but he also noted that a record number of troops had been killed this year and that political differences among the Iraqis had not been bridged.

?The best leverage we have to get Iraq?s political leaders to do their job is to immediately begin to withdraw our troops,? Mr. Burton said.

Mr. Edwards told reporters in Des Moines on Tuesday that there was not enough political movement to justify reassessing his Iraq policy at this stage.

?I think the underlying question has not changed in Iraq, and that question is whether there has been any serious effort, serious movement on the political front,? Mr. Edwards said. ?Until there is political reconciliation between the Sunni and the Shia, there cannot be stability, there will not be an end to the violence. So I think that?s the ultimate test, and I have seen very little progress if any on that front.?

Mr. Edwards regularly brings up Iraq, but his focus is less on the troop escalation and more on his opponents? judgment, especially Mrs. Clinton?s. He frequently lumps her in with Mr. Bush by noting her Senate votes supporting both the Iraq war and a recent resolution designating the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization.

?We?ve seen this movie before; we know how it ends,? Mr. Edwards likes to say about Iraq and Iran.

Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., a Democratic candidate who has been praised by his rivals as a thoughtful voice on Iraq and foreign affairs, agreed in a statement that there had been ?real progress on security? in Iraq. On the campaign trail, though, he frames discussions of the troop escalation around his plan to create strong regional governments in Iraq, rather than talking about the declining violence as an end in itself.

Political reconciliation, Mr. Biden said in the statement, ?hasn?t happened and it won?t until the administration stops trying to build a strong central government in Baghdad and starts implementing my plan to build up local control. That?s the only path to a lasting political settlement in Iraq that will allow our troops to leave without leaving chaos behind.?

By contrast, one candidate favors withdrawing all troops immediately and unconditionally: Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico.

?Let?s be clear: 40 dead American troops is 40 too many,? said Tom Reynolds, a spokesman for Mr. Richardson. ?Measuring progress through body counts is wrong. Sixty-five percent of Iraqis support killing American soldiers. There is no national political progress. None. It can only happen when we send a clear signal we are leaving.?


Don't look here...ummm, look over there
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

fatman

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2007, 10:14:44 PM »
The success of military operations in improving security in Iraq (at least in the short term) does not negate the fundamental fact that we don't belong in Iraq, and haven't belonged in Iraq since it was ascertained that there were no WMD's.  I applaud the military and the planners that made these successes possible, but it doesn't change my belief that the troops belong over here and not over there.  While all the presidential candidates have been out grab assing with the primary voters, I haven't seen ONE of them put forth a coherent plan of action for Iraq.  Part of this may be due to the fact that a year separates them from being able to do anything there, and a lot can change in a year, but all I've seen is limp advocation of troop withdrawals or troop maintenance in Iraq (with the exception of Paul and Richardson).  I haven't seen anything far reaching from the candidates as to the role of the US in American-Iraqi relations.

By saying the effects of the troop escalation have not led to a healthier political environment, the candidates are tacitly acknowledging that the additional troops have, in fact, made a difference on the ground

I personally hope that the troops on the ground have made a difference.  It would be a waste of time, effort, and life if they made no difference.  That said, the political environment in Iraq is troublesome, perhaps the most troublesome aspect of a troublesome conflict, as I've noted before.  Until the Iraqi government can get off its ass and quit bickering within its ranks, the US is going to be there to babysit and do their dirty work for them.  I'm starting to think that the Iraqi government is well aware of this dilemma and is happy with the status quo, as they don't have to do any real work or face any real questions from their constituents.  Hopefully my thinking is flawed, but only time will tell.

Bravo to the troops for a job well done, and hopefully these gains will last.  Now let's get a plan together to get our troops out of there and leave Iraqi business to, well, the Iraqi's.

Plane

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2007, 10:28:34 PM »


Bravo to the troops for a job well done, and hopefully these gains will last.  Now let's get a plan together to get our troops out of there and leave Iraqi business to, well, the Iraqi's.


I partly agree.

We do need to get our hand off of Iraq , and soon is better than late.

But if a healthy Democracy can be established it can do good globally.

The Mid East is a mess , what elese than this can be done to correct root causes?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 01:59:07 AM by Plane »

fatman

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2007, 10:39:04 PM »
I partly agree.

We do need to get our and off of Iraq , and soon is better than late.

But if a healthy Democracy can be established it can do good globally.

The Mid East is a mess , what elese than this can be done to correct root causes?




Plane, it is good to see that you see the wisdom of defining an exit strategy, and your position of balancing exit against maintenance regarding global democracy is intelligent.  I agree that if a healthy democracy can be established it will be of benefit to the entire world, though I don't believe that democracy will come to fruition so long as the US holds a major presence in Iraq.  A democracy under a protectorate is not really a true democracy.  My personal opinion is that the Iraqi government wants us to solve their problems for them, and that isn't a true democracy either.  The Iraqi government needs to be put in a sink or swim situation, we can't hold their hands forever.

As to the root causes, better (and far more intelligent) people than me have tried to identify these with varying degrees of success.  I think that one of the major problems with the various Mid-East peace negotiations have been a misidentification of those root causes.  I don't belive that a US presence will quell those root causes, though it may quell violence, to an extent.  I'll be honest though, I don't really know how to combat the root causes, partially because I believe that I'm unaware to the full list and impact of those causes.

Plane

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2007, 10:48:50 PM »
It may be like planting saplings during the forest fire , it might be better to wait and repair the damage after the damage is total.


But how can we tell that with the limits of foresight?


If we skip over this oppurtunity we don't know that there will be another one.


With our involvement democracy can still loose.

Without our involvement can democracy win?

sirs

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2007, 01:31:40 AM »
The success of military operations in improving security in Iraq (at least in the short term) does not negate the fundamental fact that we don't belong in Iraq, and haven't belonged in Iraq since it was ascertained that there were no WMD's. ....Bravo to the troops for a job well done, and hopefully these gains will last.  Now let's get a plan together to get our troops out of there and leave Iraqi business to, well, the Iraqi's.

A sincere opinion, but one I can't share.  Following 911, and with the intel we had at the time, it would have been wrecklessly irresponsible for Bush NOT to have gone into Iraq, and it was only our intervention did we uncover the current state of Saddam's WMD program.  But hind sight is 20-20.  Monday morning QB's are great in the booth, following the game, but during the game, you go with what you have, and what you believe you know.  Saddam was deposed, mission accomplished, his regime was taken down, ironically as per the policy of the prior administration.  At that point, it would have been morally irresponsible to have left Iraq, in the state it was in.

I ABSOLUTELY WANT OUR TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ.......as soon as it's feasible, not before.....not before Iraq is ready to stand on its own, without our security any longer, so that every one of those lives lost, both U.S military & Iraqi, were not lost in vain.  Pulling out before that goal, makes every sacrifice meaningless
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

fatman

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2007, 02:16:24 AM »
Without our involvement can democracy win?

Yes, though I think (as I said above) that our military presence hampers that.  I am all in favor of a Mid-East Marshall Plan, economic aid/subsidies to Iraq, things of that nature.  I disagree with fighting the battles of the Iraqi government for them, especially since they're so incompetent that they can't seem to agree on fundamental principles of government.

A sincere opinion, but one I can't share.  Following 911, and with the intel we had at the time, it would have been wrecklessly irresponsible for Bush NOT to have gone into Iraq, and it was only our intervention did we uncover the current state of Saddam's WMD program.  But hind sight is 20-20.  Monday morning QB's are great in the booth, following the game, but during the game, you go with what you have, and what you believe you know.  Saddam was deposed, mission accomplished, his regime was taken down, ironically as per the policy of the prior administration.  At that point, it would have been morally irresponsible to have left Iraq, in the state it was in.


I believe that honest mistakes were made in the interpretation of the intelligence that led to our going in.  I think that once we realized the mistake (no WMD's) that we should have began to limit our involvement.  You may call it morally irresponsible, but part of the mess was theirs to begin with.  What I am really having a hard time with is our people dying, being shot at, etc., while the Iraqi government with their bodyguards diddle the dog all day when they're supposed to be building a government.  If we can't get them to agree on the fundamentals, what hope is there of democracy?  And if the hope of democracy is miniscule, what hope is there for us to bring the troops home?  Sooner or later we're going to have to quit throwing our money at the slot machine, sooner preferably.  I too want democracy to succeed in Iraq, but if the government there is going to fuck around instead of doing their job, we might as well leave it to them, it might give them something to do for awhile.

I ABSOLUTELY WANT OUR TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ.......as soon as it's feasible, not before.....not before Iraq is ready to stand on its own, without our security any longer, so that every one of those lives lost, both U.S military & Iraqi, were not lost in vain.  Pulling out before that goal, makes every sacrifice meaningless

And I don't doubt the validity of your opinion sirs.  However, if the government over there can't get its act together, why should we continue to expend men and treasure on their behalf?  I believe that the Congress set benchmarks for political progress in Iraq (not military, AFIK) and yet there were many on the right clamoring about how the Congress was tying the hands of the military, by requiring the Iraqi government, not the US military, to show some progress.  That progress would bring our troops home sooner.  The fact that the progress was minimal at best, negative at worst, and that our Congress continues to fund this effort in the face of the benchmark failure, is disgusting and despicable.  We've been there long enough and spent enough money that the government that was elected by Iraqi's should be able to get their act together.  Funny, I'll bet that you would see a lot of changes in how the government dealt with itself if it knew that we were pulling out.  They might even be able to join into a functional body.

sirs

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2007, 04:34:59 AM »
I believe that honest mistakes were made in the interpretation of the intelligence that led to our going in.  

From everything I've been reading, the mistakes were made by the intelligence community, in what they were interpreting, not in what the Administration was.  Point being, our decisions were being based on those intel conclusions, not on some misinterpretation of them


I think that once we realized the mistake (no WMD's) that we should have began to limit our involvement.  

By then, Saddam's regime had been taken down.  At that time, we could not limit our involvement, without angering perhaps every breathing Muslim (Those that supported Saddam, and now wanted retribution, and those that would have seen the U.S. do what it did the last go around, make a mess of things, then up and leave to allow every conceivable warlord and insurgent to take up arms, much less AlQeads salivated at the prospect of making Iraq ts new haven, having been drummed out of Afghanistan


You may call it morally irresponsible, but part of the mess was theirs to begin with.


Perhaps......and run by a dictator, meanign the mess was hardly going to go away


What I am really having a hard time with is our people dying, being shot at, etc., while the Iraqi government with their bodyguards diddle the dog all day when they're supposed to be building a government. 

I have a problem with that, too.  That said, what kind of timetable do you give Freedom, Fatman?  2 weeks?  2 months?  2 years?  If Freedom and security can't be acheived by then, frell them?  How long did ours take?  I'm seeing progress.  I'm seeing tangible accomplishments.  Yes, the Iraqi Government needs to kick themselves a tad more, but to accomplish what they've done so far, given the animosity that the 3 main groups have had in the past towards each other, is to be commended, not pee'd on


I ABSOLUTELY WANT OUR TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ.......as soon as it's feasible, not before.....not before Iraq is ready to stand on its own, without our security any longer, so that every one of those lives lost, both U.S military & Iraqi, were not lost in vain.  Pulling out before that goal, makes every sacrifice meaningless

And I don't doubt the validity of your opinion sirs.  However, if the government over there can't get its act together, why should we continue to expend men and treasure on their behalf? 

When I start seeing repetative blatant examples of their government "not getting it's act together", then perhaps my position will change.  Until that time, I'm fully supporting our efforts, so that not 1 life was lost in vain, in this endeavor

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2007, 09:29:58 AM »
The light at the end of the tunnel...Saigon is peaceful, there is only sporadic fighting in I Corps, soon Vietnam will be a shining democracy. We heard all this once before.

How much is a democratic Iraq worth? How many lives? 3,000? 4,000, 10,000, 50,000?
How much money? a trillion? three trillion? seventeen trillion?

How many dollars to the Euro will we have before this godawful misbegotten mess is over? $2? $4?  $15?

Iraq was the worst mistake any US president has ever made, and it was botched far worse than any other war.

Iraq will be run by Iraqis, no matter what we do. Is their oil worth so much that we need to destroy our country to get it?

People are dying because the US government will not do one goddamned thing to free us from oil imports bu subsidizing research, new fuels, new engines. The nation is being wrecked by morons, stooges and thieves. It has to stop, and it needs to stop NOW.

Many God rot Dick asshole Cheney and George Worthless Juniorbush, and may he do it soon.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

The_Professor

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2007, 10:29:29 AM »


Bravo to the troops for a job well done, and hopefully these gains will last.  Now let's get a plan together to get our troops out of there and leave Iraqi business to, well, the Iraqi's.


I partly agree.

We do need to get our hand off of Iraq , and soon is better than late.

But if a healthy Democracy can be established it can do good globally.

The Mid East is a mess , what elese than this can be done to correct root causes?
A question: whose job is it to install democracies throughout the world?
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Plane

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2007, 11:53:26 AM »


Bravo to the troops for a job well done, and hopefully these gains will last.  Now let's get a plan together to get our troops out of there and leave Iraqi business to, well, the Iraqi's.


I partly agree.

We do need to get our hand off of Iraq , and soon is better than late.

But if a healthy Democracy can be established it can do good globally.

The Mid East is a mess , what elese than this can be done to correct root causes?
A question: whose job is it to install democracies throughout the world?


If it is not us, it must be no one.

The_Professor

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2007, 11:58:11 AM »


Bravo to the troops for a job well done, and hopefully these gains will last.  Now let's get a plan together to get our troops out of there and leave Iraqi business to, well, the Iraqi's.


I partly agree.

We do need to get our hand off of Iraq , and soon is better than late.

But if a healthy Democracy can be established it can do good globally.

The Mid East is a mess , what elese than this can be done to correct root causes?
A question: whose job is it to install democracies throughout the world?


If it is not us, it must be no one.

Is it ANYONE'S duty to do this?
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Plane

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2007, 12:12:18 PM »


Bravo to the troops for a job well done, and hopefully these gains will last.  Now let's get a plan together to get our troops out of there and leave Iraqi business to, well, the Iraqi's.


I partly agree.

We do need to get our hand off of Iraq , and soon is better than late.

But if a healthy Democracy can be established it can do good globally.

The Mid East is a mess , what elese than this can be done to correct root causes?
A question: whose job is it to install democracies throughout the world?


If it is not us, it must be no one.

Is it ANYONE'S duty to do this?

If we beleive Democracy to be a good thing , then we do a good thing to foster its growth.

It can't even exist where it isn't welcome with the people ,but that doesn't describe Iraq.

sirs

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2007, 02:02:57 PM »
If it is not us, it must be no one.

Is it ANYONE'S duty to do this?

If we beleive Democracy to be a good thing , then we do a good thing to foster its growth.  It can't even exist where it isn't welcome with the people ,but that doesn't describe Iraq.

Just keeping in mind, for all those inflicted with BDS, that is not why we went into Iraq, and Plane knows that as well.  It's simply why we're still there now.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What to do....what to do
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2007, 02:30:07 PM »
Is it ANYONE'S duty to do this?
=======================================

If we believe Democracy to be a good thing , then we do a good thing to foster its growth.  It can't even exist where it isn't welcome with the people ,but that doesn't describe Iraq.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is the responsibility of the Iraqis to install a democratic government in Iraq. It is theirs and theirs alone. But only if this is what they want.

Iraq has been a nation for damn near 6000 years. At no point during all this time has there been any sort of democracy in Iraq.

Only when the Americans came and thrust elections on the Iraqis, did they vote. But not enough of them seem to believe in fair elections with minority rights and majority privileges to make this the accepted form of government. Sunnis refuse to yield their former superior status, and Shiites refuse to respect Sunni minority rights. Kurds would rather live in Kurdistan, and even refuse to fly the national flag of Iraq.

 Iraq refuses to be a democracy or even to behave like a nation. Of course, the boundaries of Iraq were not determoined as those of the US. They were drawn by the British, not Iraqis.

The borders of Iraq and the system of government of Iraq are not the fault of the US, and it are not  problems that can be solved by Americans shooting or pointing guns at Iraqis.


 
It is NOT the "duty" of the US to  bring democracy to Iraq.. No American should have to die to impose a democracy in Iraq. Saddam Hussein, the bogus reason for the invasion, is now dead and no threat to anyone. There are no WMD's, and Iraq cannot attack the US. Iraqis can only kill Americans who are there in Iraq. Thay cannot project their threrat beyond the borders of Iraq.

The US has an interest that Mexico and Canada are stable governments, because problems in these nations will affect the security and economy of the US. But Iraq is far far away from the US, separated by the two largest oceans on the planet, culture, language and pretty much everything else.

Iraq will belong to OPEC, and will sell oil at OPEC prices, because this is in the interest of the people of Iraq, though probably not in the interests of the people of the US.

Whether Iraqis belong to OPEC is their decision, not ours, though.

The US seems to care far less about democracy in Burma, Sudan, Swaziland, Zimbabwe or Equitorial Guinea, all of which have utterly despicable governments. We certainly have no plans to send troops to depose the dictators of these places. And they are hardly the only ones.

===================================================================
Once more, here are the questions:

How much is a democratic Iraq worth? How many lives? 3,000? 4,000, 10,000, 50,000?
How much money? a trillion? three trillion? seventeen trillion? Are their any limits to this at all? If so, what are they?

In Vietnam, there were about 58,000 dead Americans and millions of Vietnamese, and the economy was stagnant for at least a decade. And we didn't win one damned thing.

How many dollars to the Euro will we have before this godawful misbegotten mess is over? $2? $4?  $15?

Iraq will be run by Iraqis, no matter what we do. Is their oil worth so much that we need to destroy our country to get it?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 02:38:03 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."