On self defense

[hnumpah]

Let us assume for just a moment, that the kid who went apesh*t in that mall on Omaha could not have purchased am assault rifle, but only an ordinary rifle suitable for defending himself against rabid, crazed jackrabbits, that would have required him to cock it before each shot.

What are the odds that more people would be alive today?

Let us assume there was a law-abiding citizen nearby with a concealed carry permit, a firearm, and the sense and skill to use it.

Same question.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Let us assume there was a law-abiding citizen nearby with a concealed carry permit, a firearm, and the sense and skill to use it.

Same question.
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But there wasn't. Maybe there could have been.

Wouldn't anyone with a rifle in a mall cause some reaction from a security person?

Are you seriously advocating that "law-abiding citizens with concealed carry permits, firearms, and the sense and skill to use them" cruise every mall?

Such a person might be a "law-abiding citizens with concealed carry permits, firearms, and the sense and skill to use them" but they could look like a serious and dangerous nutjob.

If this wacko could only have bought a standard hunting rifle, wouldn't everyone be safer?

[hnumpah]

But there wasn't. Maybe there could have been.

And he wasn't carrying a plain rifle, either.

Wouldn't anyone with a rifle in a mall cause some reaction from a security person?

Only if they saw it.

Are you seriously advocating that "law-abiding citizens with concealed carry permits, firearms, and the sense and skill to use them" cruise every mall?

In Florida, it's safe to assume there might be someone in the mall with a carry permit and a firearm. About the only places they are banned are bars, schools and government buildings.

Such a person might be a "law-abiding citizens with concealed carry permits, firearms, and the sense and skill to use them" but they could look like a serious and dangerous nutjob.

Describe a dangerous and serious nutjob. Now describe the mall shooter.

If this wacko could only have bought a standard hunting rifle, wouldn't everyone be safer?

No. With practice - and not much of that - he could have put just as many people down with a bolt action or lever action rifle before the police showed up.

[Plane]

I agree with hnumpah in this case .

      If it were possible to ensure that many responsible persons were armed and it was ordinary for a few such persons to be in every crowd someone plotting a crime like this one couldn't plan on being uninterrupted as he took over the place.
     

     Observe the time required to throw the bolt of a hunting rifle like the model 700, less than a second.   

                  http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/3-D/


     Very simple weapons can be reloded in seconds , even break action rifles do not require lots of time to reload.
     


      Unless we are reduced to muzzleloaders , multiple murders  with firearms will remain possible , and even then , the limitations of muzzleloaders can be coped with as Blackbeard did , by carrying a brace of them.

[kimba1]

actually wouldn`t the guy with the concealed weapon get shot
despite the requirements to get the permit.
he is not a trained person who can handle a life or death situation.
the permit simply prove one has knowledge.
it doesn`t mean he`s skilled
it`s like a drivers license
it`s just proves you know how to drive,but it doesn`t mean your going to be good at it.

[Xavier_Onassis]

It is insane to argue that we should allow everyone to own assault rifles, just so that perhaps a few might go to the mall as freelance guardians and protect the hapless public from crazed homicidal maniacs that might also go to the mall to shoot members of the public at will.

One does not need an assault weapon to shoot deer.

[kimba1]

I wouldn`t mind a militia
people specially trained for this
everyone has the right to join but they must be trained to be in
personally automatic weapons is not too much of a problem
bullets cost too much for most folks to do it as a hobby
I`m required to go to the gun range for my job
if it wasn`t for the fact I get re-embursed
I wouldn`t go at all.
it`s not cheap.

[hnumpah]

actually wouldn`t the guy with the concealed weapon get shot
despite the requirements to get the permit.
he is not a trained person who can handle a life or death situation.
the permit simply prove one has knowledge.
it doesn`t mean he`s skilled
it`s like a drivers license
it`s just proves you know how to drive,but it doesn`t mean your going to be good at it.

Not necessarily.

In Florida, you have to take a course to get a concealed carry permit. You have to show you know how to handle the firearm safely, and know when and where you may or may not carry it, and when you would be allowed to use it. Most have some experience with firearms before they even apply for the permit; many take their own time and money to go to the range and learn how to use their weapon. Consider also that many of those are current and former military, retired police officers, security officers, and others who have more experience and training than just what it takes to get a permit.

Even those that have no further experience would at least have the opportunity to defend themselves, and maybe help get others out of harm's way. And consider that, even if the person with the permit had done nothing more than show that they had the good common sense to show that they were responsible enough and capable of handling a firearm, if there were more people out there carrying legal firearms, some nutjob shooter would be more likely to think twice before whipping out a rifle in a mall and plinking shoppers.

You don't necessarily have to be Mario Andretti to drive from point A to point B safely.

[Plane]

It is insane to argue that we should allow everyone to own assault rifles, just so that perhaps a few might go to the mall as freelance guardians and protect the hapless public from crazed homicidal maniacs that might also go to the mall to shoot members of the public at will.

One does not need an assault weapon to shoot deer.

(1) Define "assault rifles" it is important that we are speaking in  the same terms.

(2)Pistols are really better, both for massicres and for self defense. Conceilable pistols allow no one to know when there are no armed persons around.

[sirs]

actually wouldn`t the guy with the concealed weapon get shot
despite the requirements to get the permit.
he is not a trained person who can handle a life or death situation.

No one is quite ready to handle a "life & death" situation, Kimba.  Have you read the myriad of stories where multiple Police Officers fired hundreds of rounds at one suspect, missing him about 75%?  The issue is training in handing a firearm, and MOST locales have very stringent guidelines before handing out a CCW.

the permit simply prove one has knowledge.

AND that he's had training, AND that he has an understanding of how to handle a firearm, AND he becomes a significant deterrent to anyone else who might try pulling what this latest fella pulled.

it doesn`t mean he`s skilled

That's not entirely correct.  Skilled like a Police officer?, no.  Skilled in handing a firearm?, yes

it`s just proves you know how to drive,but it doesn`t mean your going to be good at it.

as I said, many Police officers don't have adequate shooting skills either, many only having to pass bare minimum shooting standards, and no one knows how they're going to react in a life & death situation, until it literally becomes life or death.  And as H clearly stated, you don't have to be a formula 1 racing driver to drive a car safely

[Xavier_Onassis]

(1) Define "assault rifles" it is important that we are speaking in  the same terms.

(2)Pistols are really better, both for massicres and for self defense. Conceilable pistols allow no one to know when there are no armed persons around.
   

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The rifle the kid in Omaha had was an AK-47. That is an assault rifle.

A pistol is far less accurate than a rifle, but it is easily concealable. Yopu don't need a pistol to massacre deer with, either.

[Plane]

(1) Define "assault rifles" it is important that we are speaking in the same terms.

(2)Pistols are really better, both for massicres and for self defense. Concealable pistols allow no one to know when there are no armed persons around.
   

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The rifle the kid in Omaha had was an AK-47. That is an assault rifle.

A pistol is far less accurate than a rifle, but it is easily concealable. You don't need a pistol to massacre deer with, either.

In this setting the range and striking power of the rifle were superfluous and made no difference.
The rate of fire does make a difference but many pistols can match the AK-47 in rate of fire.

I do not know if this shooter took any long shots , but within the mall he would not have to , so I don't know if the rifles range made a difference or not.

The difference "assault rifle" makes is emotional.

What characteristic of an "assault rifle" makes reducing their availability a good idea?

[Xavier_Onassis]

What caricteristic of an "assault rifle" makes reduceing their availibility a good idea?
 
(1) They are designed to be used to kill people with.
(2) In the case of the AK-47, they are way too affordable. If they cost $500 or more, fewer people would own them.

If we limit crazed mass murderers to rich people, we have significantly limited them, I imagine.

I don't believe that everyone should necessarily have the same equal right to be a crazed mass murderer. Any limitations we can put on the number and competence of crazed mass murderers is a good thing for those of us who are not crazed mass murderers.

I insist that simply allowing everyone to stroll about armed to the teeth is really going to make anyone safer. I am sure that it would make the armed and dangerous types feel safer.

Florida and Texas, as has been pointed out, pretty much allow everyone to stroll about like Blackbeard. But strangely, this has not resulted in either state having fewer gun murders than states with more stringent laws.

So I would say that pragmatically, this theory won't hunt.


 

[Plane]

Florida and Texas, as has been pointed out, pretty much allow everyone to stroll about like Blackbeard. But strangely, this has not resulted in either state having fewer gun murders than states with more stringent laws.

Isn't this an error of fact?

The better measure would be the result of the change from haveing no leagal conceiled carry permits to haveing them , as in Florida , the result was not any increase in crime of any sort .

Another good measure is that when President Clinton seemed on the verge of restricting more firearms , firearms sales skyrocketed and gun ownership set record levels almost monthly , co-incidentally with a falling murder rate almost constantly during the same period.

The theroy that fewer guns would result in fewer murders seems to have almost no supporting evidence , it is merely an intuitive deduction , my intuition is exactly opposite to yours and seems to have an easy time finding facts that are supporting.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The theoy that fewer guns would result in fewer murders seems to have almost no supporting evidence , it is merely an intuitive deduction , my intuition is exactly opposite to yours and seems to have an easy time finding facts that are supporting.

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Lookit, if it is as you say, that there was no change in the number of crimes when Florida decided to let everyone pack heat, then by definition this accomplished nothing.

Presumably, we have more people walking about armed and dangerous. Or at least we COULD have them.

It was supposed to LOWER crime, because then the baddies would know that everyone could be armed and dangerous, and perhaps they would take their evil criminal ways to Minnesota or North Dakota, or perhaps reform and go straight.

But they didn't.

This is because our criminals are not logical beings. They are stupid and lazy, which explains why they had become criminals in the first place.

We should have given them gift subscriptions to the NRA Journal. and Podcasts for those who are illiterate.