Author Topic: No doubt it works  (Read 10521 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
No doubt it works
« on: December 13, 2007, 01:06:33 PM »
 [depends upon your definition of works]

Torture Works

by digby

A commenter points me to this account of a successful "enhanced interrogation;"


    . . . On Wednesday, June 28, 1628, was examined without torture Johannes Junius, Burgomaster at Bamberg, on the charge of witch-craft: how and in what fashion he had fallen into that vice. Is fifty-five years old, and was born at Niederwaysich in the Wetterau. Says he is wholly innocent, knows nothing of the crime has never in his life renounced God: says that he is wronged hefore God and the world, would like to hear of a single human being who has seen him at such gatherings [as the witch-sabbaths].

    Confrontation of Dr. Georg Adam Haan. Tells him to his face be will stake his life on it [er wolle darauf leben und sterben], that he saw him, Junius, a year and a half ago at a witch-gathering in the electoral council-room where they ate and drank. Accused denies the same wholly.

    Confronted with Hopffens Elsse. Tells him likewise that he was on Haupts-moor at a witch-dance; but first the holy wafer was desecrated. Junius denies. Hereupon he was told that his accomplices had confessed against him and was given time for thought.

    On Friday, June 30, 1628, the aforesaid Junius was again without torture exhorted to confess, but again confessed nothing, whereupon, . . . since he would confess nothing, he was put to the torture, and first the [Page 24] Thumb-screws were applied. Says he has never denied God his Saviour nor suffered himself to be otherwise baptized; [1] will again stake his life on it; feels no pain in the thumb-screws.

    Leg-screws. Will confess absolutely nothing [and] knows nothing about it. He has never renounced God; will never do such a thing; has never been guilty of this vice; feels likewise no pain.

    Is stripped and examined; on his right side is found a bluish mark, like a clover leaf, is thrice pricked therein, but feels no pain and no blood flows out.

    Strappado. He has never renounced God; God will not forsake him; if he were such a wretch he would not let himself be so tortured; God must show some token of his innocence. He knows nothing about witchcraft. . . .

    On July 5, the above named Junius is without torture, but with urgent persuasions, exhorted to confess, and at last begins and confesses.


    [...]

    Burr's note: So ended the trial of Junius, and he was accordingly burned at the stake. But it so happens that there is also preserved in Bamberg a letter, in quivering hand, secretly written by him to his daughter while in the midst of his trial (July 24, 1628):

    Many hundred thousand good-nights, dearly beloved daughter Veronica. Innocent have I come into prison, innocent have I been tortured, innocent must I die. For whoever comes into the witch prison must become a witch or be tortured until he invents something out of his head and--God pity him--bethinks him of something. I will tell you how it has gone with me. When I was the first time put to the torture, Dr. Braun, Dr. Kotzendorffer, and two strange doctors were there. Then Dr. Braun asks me, "Kinsman, how come you here?" I answer, "Through falsehood, through misfortune." "Hear, you," he says, "you are a witch; will you confess it voluntarily? If not, we'll bring in witnesses and the executioner for you." I said "I am no witch, I have a pure conscience in the matter; if there are a thousand witnesses, I am not anxious, but I'll gladly hear the witnesses." Now the chancellor's son was set before me . . . and afterward Hoppfen Elss. She had seen me dance on Haupts-moor. . . . I answered: "I have never renounced God, and will never do it--God graciously keep me from it. I'll rather bear whatever I must." And then came also--God in highest Heaven have mercy--the executioner, and put the thumb-screws on me, both hands bound together, so that the blood ran out at the nails and everywhere, so that for four weeks I could not use my hands, as you can see from the writing. . . . Thereafter they first stripped me, bound my hands behind me, and drew me up in the torture. [2] Then I thought heaven and earth were at an end; eight times did they draw me up and let me fall again, so that I suffered terrible agony. . . .

    [...]

    And so I made my confession, as follows; but it was all a lie.

    Now follows, dear child, what I confessed in order to escape the great anguish and bitter torture, which it was impossible for me longer to bear.

    Burr's note:Here follows his confession, substantially as it is given in the minutes of his trial. But he adds:

    Then I had to tell what people I had seen [at the witch-sabbath]. I said that I bad not recognized them. "You old rascal, I must set the executioner at you. Say--was not the Chancellor there?" So I said yes. "Who besides?" I had not recognized anybody. So he said: "Take one street after another; begin at the market, go out on one street and back on the next." I had to name several persons there. Then came the long street. [3] I knew nobody. Had to name eight persons there. Then the Zinkenwert--one person more. Then over the upper bridge to the Georgthor, on both sides. Knew nobody again. [Page 28] Did I know nobody in the castle--whoever it might be, I should speak without fear. And thus continuously they asked me on all the streets, though I could not and would not say more. So they gave me to the executioner, told him to strip me, shave me all over, and put me to the torture. "The rascal knows one on the market-place, is with him daily, and yet won't name him." By that they meant Dietmeyer: so I had to name him too.

    Then I had to tell what crimes I had committed. I said nothing.

    . . "Draw the rascal up!" So I said that I was to kill my children, but I had killed a horse instead. It did not help. I had also taken a sacred wafer, and had desecrated it. When I had said this, they left me in peace.

    Now, dear child, here you have all my confession, for which I must die. And they are sheer lies and made-up things, so help me God. For all this I was forced to say through fear of the torture which was threatened beyond what I had already endured. For they never leave off with the torture till one confesses something; be he never so good, he must be a witch. Nobody escapes, though he were an earl. . . .

    Dear child, keep this letter secret so that people do not find it, else I shall be tortured most piteously and the jailers will be beheaded. So strictly is it forbidden. . . . Dear child, pay this man a dollar. . . . I have taken several days to write this: my hands are both lame. I am in a sad plight. . . .

    Good night, for your father Johannes Junius will never see you more. July 24, 1628.


    Burr's note:And on the margin of the letter he adds:

    Dear child, six have confessed against me at once: the Chancellor, his son, Neudecker, Zaner, Hoffmaisters Ursel, and Hoppfen Els--all false, through compulsion, as they have all told me, and begged my forgiveness in God's name before they were executed. . . . They know nothing but good of me. They were forced to say it, just as I myself was. . . .

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/torture-works-by-digby-commenter-points.html
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 01:13:07 PM »
Also depends on one's definition of "torture"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2007, 01:24:06 PM »
Seems to me it would be a simple feat to pass a bill specifically declaring waterboarding torture and ban it from use by US personnel.

Wonder why that hasn't been urged by pundits and polls.

Anyone know if the dems have a bill pending covering this ?

If not why not?



sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2007, 01:42:21 PM »
Seems to me it would be a simple feat to pass a bill specifically declaring waterboarding torture and ban it from use by US personnel.

You'd think.  Perhaps it's simply being used as a political football by the Dems, with no intention of doing anything about it, outisde to simply bash Republicans as being "for torture", with the mindset that the masses are too dumb to recognize your query, Bt? 

I have a simple formula, for myself.  If I knew someone had knowledge of 911 before 911 occured, what would I be willing to allow our forces to do, in an effort to pull such information.  Water Boarding, noting how it does NOT cause any physical damage or dismemberment, definately fits in the can do column



« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 02:33:56 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8009
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2007, 01:58:09 PM »
I saw a video of a guy who voluntered to do it.
he stated the only reason he lasted 25 sec is because he knew he it`s controlled.
the problem I see is how do you make sure the guys poring the water will stop on time.
the issue about torture that I just notice nobody address is torturing fun and people can go too far
remember the photos with the naked prisoners that popped up a few years back those soldiers are laughing.
the stanford experiment proves people can get caught up in the fun.


hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2007, 04:32:12 PM »
Quote
Seems to me it would be a simple feat to pass a bill specifically declaring waterboarding torture and ban it from use by US personnel.


Ask and ye shall receive...


House votes to outlaw CIA waterboarding

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Democratic-led House of Representatives voted on Thursday to outlaw harsh interrogation methods, such as simulated drowning, that the CIA has used against suspected terrorists.

On a 222-199 vote, the House approved a measure to require intelligence agents to comply with the Army Field Manual, which meets the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of war prisoners and prohibits torture.

The measure passed amid a congressional probe into the recent disclosure that the CIA destroyed videotapes of al Qaeda suspects undergoing waterboarding, a simulated drowning.

Many countries, U.S. lawmakers and human rights groups have accused the United States of torturing terror suspects since the September 11 attacks.

President George W. Bush says the United States does not torture but the administration will not disclose what interrogation methods are used.

(Reporting by Thomas Ferraro; editing by Lori Santos)

"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2007, 04:33:30 PM »
That settles that.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2007, 05:14:33 PM »
I saw a video of a guy who voluntered to do it.
he stated the only reason he lasted 25 sec is because he knew he it`s controlled.
the problem I see is how do you make sure the guys poring the water will stop on time.
the issue about torture that I just notice nobody address is torturing fun and people can go too far
remember the photos with the naked prisoners that popped up a few years back those soldiers are laughing.
the stanford experiment proves people can get caught up in the fun.


I am glad you reminded me of the Sanford experiment , anyone here not heard of it already?

Did we learn someting from it really?


http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/97/970108prisonexp.html
Details of the experiment are well known. They are included in most basic psychology texts and in a public television psychology course, "Discovering Psychology," that Zimbardo wrote and narrates. Movie rights have been optioned, "60 Minutes" has filmed a segment on the experiment, and even a punk rock band in Los Angeles calls itself Stanford Prison Experiment. In summary:

On Sunday morning, Aug., 17, 1971, nine young men were "arrested" in their homes by Palo Alto police. At least one of those arrested vividly remembers the shock of having his neighbors come out to watch the commotion as TV cameras recorded his hand-cuffing for the nightly news.

The arrestees were among about 70 young men, mostly college students eager to earn $15 a day for two weeks, who volunteered as subjects for an experiment on prison life that had been advertised in the Palo Alto Times. After interviews and a battery of psychological tests, the two dozen judged to be the most normal, average and healthy were selected to participate, assigned randomly either to be guards or prisoners. Those who would be prisoners were booked at a real jail, then blindfolded and driven to campus where they were led into a makeshift prison in the basement of Jordan Hall.

Those assigned to be guards were given uniforms and instructed that they were not to use violence but that their job was to maintain control of the prison.

From the perspective of the researchers, the experiment became exciting on day two when the prisoners staged a revolt. Once the guards had crushed the rebellion, "they steadily increased their coercive aggression tactics, humiliation and dehumanization of the prisoners," Zimbardo recalls. "The staff had to frequently remind the guards to refrain from such tactics," he said, and the worst instances of abuse occurred in the middle of the night when the guards thought the staff was not watching. The guards' treatment of the prisoners ? such things as forcing them to clean out toilet bowls with their bare hands and act out degrading scenarios, or urging them to become snitches ? "resulted in extreme stress reactions that forced us to release five prisoners, one a day, prematurely."

Zimbardo's primary reason for conducting the experiment was to focus on the power of roles, rules, symbols, group identity and situational validation of behavior that generally would repulse ordinary individuals. "I had been conducting research for some years on deindividuation, vandalism and dehumanization that illustrated the ease with which ordinary people could be led to engage in anti-social acts by putting them in situations where they felt anonymous, or they could perceive of others in ways that made them less than human, as enemies or objects," Zimbardo told the Toronto symposium in the summer of 1996.


kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8009
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2007, 05:57:32 PM »
what`s not mentioned is that the cause of the early shut down of the experiment was by a visitors reaction.
observers of the experiment will also get caught up with it and not see abuse.
you need an uninvolved person not on the premise to randomly vist to ensure no harm is done.



Lanya

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3300
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2007, 06:29:19 PM »
<<you need an uninvolved person not on the premise to randomly vist to ensure no harm is done.
>>

Kind of like popping in unexpectedly at your child's daycare or volunteers who drop in at nursing homes and see how the patients are being treated, and report back to the area's Agency on Aging.
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8009
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2007, 06:38:07 PM »
exactly
since being there  continually seems to effect judgement
the man who made the experiment admitted he saw no wrong till he gave a tour and the gruest pointed out whats wrong.

yellow_crane

  • Guest
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2007, 09:17:13 PM »



Well, if they pass a law, it will get it off the table.

Meanwhile . . .

Same ole same ole . . .

The intel industry bends as it has to, embracing the wisdom of the bamboo.

But no wind lasts.

Winds are ephemeral, like public attention.



Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2007, 08:28:46 AM »
Also depends on one's definition of "torture"

===============================
What is this, some sort of Mantra of the Asshole?

The more it is repeated, the less like torture waterboarding becomes?

Waterboarding is torture, people who do it are goons, people who order their goons to do it should be arrested, tried and sent to jail. Period.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8009
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2007, 10:58:34 AM »
depends on one's definition of "torture"

------------------------------------------------------------
how about using only people who got through it to define whats totrture or not

I haven`t paid attention ,has anyone ever said I went through it`s not torture?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No doubt it works
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2007, 11:20:49 AM »
Also depends on one's definition of "torture"
===============================
What is this, some sort of Mantra of the Asshole?

You would obviously know, wouldn't you


The more it is repeated, the less like torture waterboarding becomes?

You mean the less waterboarding is to actual acts of torture, such as jt dislocations, burning flesh, piercings, pulling tongues out, cutting heads off.  ACTUAL acts of legitimate torture, as exercised by our enemy, who give high 5's to each other, while the left here goes apesnot if someone is made to believe they're drowning, when they're not

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle