Author Topic: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul  (Read 26179 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2007, 03:41:02 AM »

Prince,
I'm not trying to nit-pick, honest. I just see a Ron Paul article, I know you and at least one other poster here likes him, he is certainly interesting,  so I chuck articles in a Ron Paul thread. 
And I STILL feel bad Air Force Amy didn't get her photo taken with him. 


Well, I think it probably would have done some good. Though I find it interesting that people talk as if Ron Paul is unaware of political realities and then criticize him for having a staffer who suggests that something like being photographed with a stripper might not be politically prudent. Paul is damned no matter what he says or does. He gets criticized for wanting to actually shrink government, and people say this shows he isn't politically viable. So finally they get to hear/see Paul say he wants to go things gradually, and suddenly Ron Paul is supposedly backpedaling on his positions. But someone like Clinton or Romney, who pretty much tell audiences whatever they want to hear, they are the "serious" candidates. I know I'm biased, but from where I sit, the criticisms of Ron Paul seem rather hypocritical for the most part.

That the compromise of principles, back room deals and saying whatever it takes to get elected are so expected in our political situation that a politician with integrity and honor is considered not a viable candidate says something about our society, and what is says is not flattering. And of course, I'm supposed to be ashamed for preferring the guy with integrity. He can't be a leader or he must be some crazy xenophobic loony or he just isn't electable, so there must be something wrong with me for liking the guy. I'm supposed to like the flip-flopper or the war-monger. Or the candidate who never saw a problem that didn't need more and bigger government programs. Or the Christian who wants to base all his political choices on his religious preferences. Or the veteran who thinks controlling political speech makes elections more honest. Or the actor who apparently has going for him that he's tall and has a nice voice. I'm supposed to choose one of them over the honest doctor with integrity and a reasoned perspective on the economy and foreign policy.

The candidate who has read and listened to experts before forming his opinions is supposedly close-minded and unable to learn from others. The libertarian guy who's been elected to the U.S. Congress 10 times and considered one of the 50 most effective legislators supposedly can't get anything done and can't lead. The guy who says war is bad and let's try to be friends with other countries through trade with them is supposedly some sort of fearful isolationist. I'm not supposed to like him.

I'm supposed to like the guy who never in his whole life heard of "blowback" or the apparently the concept that sometimes unexpected bad consequences occur as a result of well-intentions actions. I'm supposed to like the guy who tells people pretty much what he thinks they want to hear. I'm supposed to like the guy who has more government programs in mind than the government could ever pay for. I'm supposed to like the guy with the $100 hair styling and the huge mansion who tells me how he wants to save the middle class from the wealthy. I'm supposed to like the guy who is going to bring about change simply because he's so new to all this.

Apparently, I'm supposed to be willing to sell my principles to these people. And this is the accepted, "normal" way of doing things. Suggest there might be something wrong with that and people start in with accusations of "unrealistic" and "not pragmatic" and the like. When I was growing up, I wad told that things like integrity and honesty, things like sharing and getting along with others were good things, desirable things. And now I'm told this is all not pragmatic, not realistic, not trustworthy, not electable. Apparently pragmatic and realistic and electable is lying, cheating, back room dealing and changing positions as required by political expediency. And I'm supposed to feel ashamed for thinking there is something wrong with that.

I've changed a lot over the years, but I haven't gotten around to feeling that way yet. Not looking forward to it actually. Kinda hoping I never get that cynical. But at some point, Santa always dies, doesn't he?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Lanya

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2007, 04:49:28 AM »
About Air Force Amy, I understood why the staffer didn't let her have her picture taken but it really hurt to read about it.  Someone was willing to take her seriously and she was being treated like a CITIZEN there at the meeting. At first, anyway.  She was interested in Ron Paul and liked what she heard and wanted her picture taken with him, and I would love for her to get her wish.
Jesus had to tell his disciples not to shoo the little children away, and I guess that's what this reminds me of.   
 
This is a very interesting blog post from Digby's site by someone called dday:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/ron-paul-and-foreign-policy-disconnect.html

Ron Paul and the Foreign Policy Disconnect

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BT

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2007, 05:23:15 AM »
Quote
Well, I think it probably would have done some good. Though I find it interesting that people talk as if Ron Paul is unaware of political realities and then criticize him for having a staffer who suggests that something like being photographed with a stripper might not be politically prudent. Paul is damned no matter what he says or does. He gets criticized for wanting to actually shrink government, and people say this shows he isn't politically viable.

Air Force Amy is a prostitute in a state that licenses brothels. Ron Paul  is on record as saying he doesn't have a problem with that.

His staffer didn't suggest anything.
He refused to allow a citizen who works in a legal profession to have her picture taken with Dr. Paul.

The problem is simple. That act by his staffer indicates that the Paul Campaign is willing to compromise principles based on political expediency. The integrity and honor pedestal you placed Paul upon is not so stable if this action is any indicator.

BT

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2007, 05:29:44 AM »
Quote
And of course, I'm supposed to be ashamed for preferring the guy with integrity. He can't be a leader or he must be some crazy xenophobic loony or he just isn't electable, so there must be something wrong with me for liking the guy.

Last I heard this thread wasn't about you. It's about Ron Paul, warts and all. And if you still want to support him that is up to you.

No need for shame, I'm sure your decision is reasoned.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 05:38:26 AM by BT »

BT

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2007, 06:27:43 AM »
RON PAUL: He's just terrible, even when -- which is often, once he's off the subject of the war -- I agree with him. His voice is too high, he can't remember who the Kurds are, and he often comes off like a crazy old man in a bus station.

But that's good news, in a way. Paul's doing better than anyone expected. It's abundantly clear that he's not doing it on charisma and rhetorical skill. Which means that libertarian ideas are actually appealing, since Ron Paul isn't. Paul's flaws as a vessel for those ideas prove the ideas' appeal. If they sell with him as the pitchman, they must be really resonating. I suspect Paul himself would agree with this analysis. Er, except maybe the bus station part.
posted at 11:03 PM by Glenn Reynolds

http://instapundit.com/archives2/012290.php

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2007, 08:59:55 AM »
About Air Force Amy, I understood why the staffer didn't let her have her picture taken but it really hurt to read about it.  Someone was willing to take her seriously and she was being treated like a CITIZEN there at the meeting. At first, anyway.  She was interested in Ron Paul and liked what she heard and wanted her picture taken with him, and I would love for her to get her wish.
===============================================================================
But if the picture is taken, then all over the internet, Ron Paul the candidate becomes Ron Paul, the Hookers' Choice. Not a winning idea. It might gain Air Force Amy quite a bit of favorable publicity, though.


===============================
Jesus had to tell his disciples not to shoo the little children away, and I guess that's what this reminds me of.   
 
There were no cameras in Jesus' day, Air Force Amy is not a child, and Jesus was not running for US president.

As an exercise in successful PR, Jesus is NOT a good example, let's face it. When you end up killed by the opposition, it's not a good thing.
Think: Coca-Cola's polar bears turned into bear rugs, Mr. Clean flushed down the john, a Fuller Brush Man impaled in the fence, Mr. Whipple squeezed to death by vicious housewives. NOT GOOD PR.

After the dying and coming back to life bit, he gained a lot more street cred, I gotta admit, but if he had done the same gig again and again, he wouldn't have NEEDED St. Paul as his postmortum PR man.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Lanya

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2007, 01:10:53 PM »
Xavier,
I know, I know.  I still just want her to have her wish.  I know she's not a child but she just seemed so happy to be taken seriously, to be part of the democratic process, and then....whammo.   It is just sad.  I understand the reason why, but I do not have to like it.
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Religious Dick

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2007, 12:59:57 PM »

Huckabee Tops Final GOP Power Rankings, Paul Remains Solid Third Place
by: Chase Martyn
Friday (12/28) at 14:30 PM
The Republican race in Iowa remains as unpredictable as it was a month ago.  Gov. Mike Huckabee surged, waned, and has steadied his position slightly ahead of Gov. Mitt Romney.  Former Sen. Fred Thompson, who was expected to move up after his recent swing through the state and his high-profile Iowa endorsements, has failed to gain much steam.  Sen. John McCain, who was close to writing Iowa off a month ago, has received newspaper endorsements and renewed attention to coincide with his improving chances nationally.

Today, Iowa Independent releases its final round of power rankings, designed to answer the question, "If the caucuses were held tonight, what would be the results?"  The rankings are derived from impressions we received from activists, campaign officials, seasoned political observers, and rank-and-file caucus-goers, but at the most basic level, they are based on the gut feelings and instincts of our writers, who have watched the race unfold here from the beginning.

A lot can change in six days, and we expect that it will.  But if the caucuses were held tonight, this is how we think they would turn out:

First Place

Mike Huckabee -- No doubt about it, Huckabee has firmed up the support of social conservatives and his nice guy routine resonates with enough people that he would likely win Iowa if the caucuses were held tonight. He drew 400 people to a rally in Orange City on the Saturday before Christmas and another 200 people in Sheldon the same day.  He seems to generate more enthusiasm than any other candidates in the Republican field.

Second Place

Mitt Romney -- It's time to see if Romney's experienced, well-paid staff knows how to close the deal. Romney's poll numbers have rebounded in the state in recent days and the questions his surrogates have raised about Huckabee's years as governor in Arkansas continue to sway small numbers of voters.  But it remains to be seen if his strong organization will give him an edge over Huckabee, whose supporters are less organized but perhaps greater in number.

Third Place

Ron Paul -- Rival campaigns are beginning to nervously speculate that Paul will finish in the top three on January 3. Paul broke double digits in at least two polls for the first time this week and he seems particularly strong in areas of the state where the media has less of an impact on political deliberations -- especially in rural northwest and southern Iowa. Check out a Ron Paul supporters' websites and you'll see detailed discussions about caucus rules and strategy. The Paulites are more ready for caucus night than most observers realize.
Fourth Place

John McCain -- Upward Momentum -- Undecided Republicans are breaking toward McCain more than most would have expected, and the additional attention he's receiving in New Hampshire and South Carolina is translating to more coverage in Iowa in the final days of the campaign.  While newspaper endorsements may not make much of a difference in the GOP race, the surprising number of Iowa newspapers who have endorsed the Arizona senator have at least made more caucus-goers receptive to his message.  And recent news from Pakistan gives him an opportunity to highlight the importance of national security experience.

Fifth Place

Fred Thompson -- We can again report that we're hearing reports that a newly energized Thompson has hit the campaign trail in Iowa. But we've said that so many times in the past six months that we don't necessarily believe it ourselves. Still, with Rep. Steve King and prominent social conservative Bill Salier on the campaign trail for him, it's hard to believe he hasn't gained some traction in the state.

Sixth Place

Rudy Giuliani -- Who would have believed that "America's Mayor" would have so much trouble coalescing support in Iowa?  Perhaps Florida will be better for him.

Seventh Place

Duncan Hunter

http://iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1733
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Religious Dick

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2007, 03:02:04 PM »
WSJ.com  OpinionJournal


CROSS COUNTRY
Ron Beats Rudy?
New Hampshire could surprise a lot of people.

BY ANDREW CLINE
Sunday, December 30, 2007 12:01 a.m.

MANCHESTER, N.H.--For several hours last Sunday, more than a dozen Ron Paul volunteers stood in snowdrifts in the rain outside the Mall of New Hampshire in Manchester waving at last-minute Christmas shoppers and handing out hundreds of yards signs.

The campaign doesn't know how many people participated because, as with so many Paul rallies, this one was organized entirely by fans not officially associated with the campaign.

"We told them to take Christmas Eve and Christmas off, and next thing we know they're doing a sign wave at the mall," said Jim Forsythe, a self-employed engineer and former Air Force pilot from Strafford, N.H., who independently organizes volunteer efforts for Ron Paul.

That spontaneous grassroots support is why Mr. Paul, an obstetrician from Lake Jackson, Texas, could pull off a stunner on Jan. 8 and place third in New Hampshire's Republican primary. If he does, he would embarrass Rudy Giuliani and steal media limelight from John McCain and Mitt Romney, who are battling for first place.

Many Republican operatives in New Hampshire, even those affiliated with other campaigns, think Mr. Paul is headed for an impressive, double-digit performance. That he has been polling in the high single digits for months is discounted, because the polls may be missing the depth of his support.

Why? For starters, he appears to be drawing new voters. Polls that screen for "likely" voters might screen out many Paul supporters who haven't voted often, or at all, before. Many of Mr. Paul's supporters appear to be first-time voters. They will be able to cast their ballots because New Hampshire allows them to register and vote on the day of an election.

Even Mr. Paul's New Hampshire spokesman, Kate Rick, is an unlikely political activist. She grew up in a political family in Washington, D.C. and says "I swore I would never work in politics." She changed her mind only after finding Mr. Paul, a candidate she says she can finally believe in. "Most people I know in the grass roots are like that," she said. "My closest friends have never voted before, and they're die-hard Paul people now."

There is another reason to discount the polls on Mr. Paul. The one thing that unites his supporters is a desire to be left alone, not only by government, but by irritating marketers and meddling pollsters, too. Mr. Paul's supporters might well be screening their calls and not-so-inadvertently screening out pollsters. Still, some observers of the primary race here downplay this support, noting that a lot of the activists who show up in news stories are not state residents and won't be voting.

It is true that Paul supporters from New York, New Jersey and even California are prominent at campaign rallies. But volunteers and campaign staffers say that, although out-of-state volunteers often are the most flamboyant and can attend daytime rallies while local supporters are at work, they do not outnumber the locals.

"Ninety percent [of his supporters] are from New Hampshire," says Jared Chicoine, Mr. Paul's New Hampshire coordinator. Keith Murphy, a former Democratic campaign worker from Maryland who owns Murphy's Taproom in Manchester, has held several Paul rallies at his restaurant, which has become a regular hangout for the Paul crowd. When the candidate shows up, about 75% of the activists at an event are from out of state, he said, but on other nights it's about 50-50.

Regardless of where they are from, organizing Mr. Paul's supporters is a challenge. "This is entirely grassroots oriented to the point that the official campaign structure seems almost lost, to the point that they don't know what to do with all these people," Mr. Murphy said.

On their own initiative, and at their own expense, Paul volunteers hold rallies, print and distribute brochures and even purchase ads. "I pick up the paper and say, wow, there's an ad and it's not my ad," Mr. Chicoine told me.

The buzz surrounding the Paul campaign is reminiscent of the grassroots campaign Democrat Carol Shea-Porter waged against Republican Rep. Jeb Bradley last year. Polls showed Mrs. Shea-Porter trailing by 19 points in October. With almost no money and no support from the Democratic establishment, she came from behind and beat the congressman 51% to 49%.

Many are wondering if the polls are similarly missing Mr. Paul's momentum. Mrs. Shea-Porter and Mr. Paul have very different ideas about how to use the power of government, but both strongly oppose the war in Iraq. And Mrs. Shea-Porter ran last year as a fiscal conservative, so it's possible Mr. Paul could win over many Republicans who voted for her last year.

Mr. Chicoine and other Paul supporters say that, contrary to conventional wisdom, most of Mr. Paul's backers are Republicans, not independents. But everyone agrees that Mr. Paul draws an unusual mix of libertarians, fiscally conservative Democrats, conservative Republicans, home-schoolers, vegans, gambling aficionados, anti-abortion activists and others who want the government to butt out of some aspect of their lives.

But will they get out to vote on primary day?

"I've never seen a group of people that are this energetic about a candidate," Mr. Murphy said. "It's something else."

That sentiment is shared by Republicans who have observed numerous New Hampshire primaries. The level of enthusiasm for Mr. Paul is remarkable, they say. It transcends the state's Libertarian base (about 4% of the electorate). And by many accounts, Mr. Paul's backers here are more energized and committed than are supporters of Mr. Giuliani, who may enjoy inflated poll numbers because of his celebrity status.

National attention is focused on the horse races between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, and between Messrs. McCain and Romney. But the shy obstetrician from Texas could be the surprise story of the New Hampshire primary.

Mr. Cline is editorial page editor of the New Hampshire Union Leader.

Copyright ? 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/cc/?id=110011060


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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2007, 04:45:56 PM »
Paul ought to beat Rudy. Rudy is just a fearmonger. His only plan is to take over, rule with an iron fist, and reimpose the rule of the disaccredited NeoCons. I used to think of him as a worthy candidate, but he is just a sack of ambition full of ego.

Paul says what he thinks. He has no real chance, but at least he's sincere.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

yellow_crane

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2007, 06:29:22 PM »
Paul ought to beat Rudy. Rudy is just a fearmonger. His only plan is to take over, rule with an iron fist, and reimpose the rule of the disaccredited NeoCons. I used to think of him as a worthy candidate, but he is just a sack of ambition full of ego.

Paul says what he thinks. He has no real chance, but at least he's sincere.


I notice in Florida Rudy is picking up some endorsements from law enforcement agencies.  One channel's news refused to name the agencies involved.

I find this disturbing.  While it is true that Rudy cleaned up Times Square in order to buff up the out of town broadway shows' tourist attendence, it is also true that he tried to get Bernie Kerik named as head of homeland security, and tried to sidetrack a vetting.   This was done because of Kerik's extensive criminal associations with the Mafia.  Too, Kerik's movements in Iraq hardly suggest heroism.  Like all Blackwater types, he got to pick and choose his fights, answering to no one.

Florida law enforcement agencies supporting Rudy are hypocritical, inimical, and heretical to the philosophy of justice within law enforcement. 

It was Kerik who sold all the cops these tasers; in the last month, I have seen reports of a twelve year old and a ninety three year old woman being tasered.  Tasers are the favorite new toy of sadistic cops.

Hardly inspires me to call any of these goons "Officer."

Were Rudy to become my leader, I would consider myself in tenuous lockdown.

It is interesting to me in what numbers and in what areas of the country respond to the tactics of Rudy, playing the Fear Card.






Plane

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2007, 09:41:27 PM »
Quote
Well, I think it probably would have done some good. Though I find it interesting that people talk as if Ron Paul is unaware of political realities and then criticize him for having a staffer who suggests that something like being photographed with a stripper might not be politically prudent. Paul is damned no matter what he says or does. He gets criticized for wanting to actually shrink government, and people say this shows he isn't politically viable.

Air Force Amy is a prostitute in a state that licenses brothels. Ron Paul  is on record as saying he doesn't have a problem with that.

His staffer didn't suggest anything.
He refused to allow a citizen who works in a legal profession to have her picture taken with Dr. Paul.

The problem is simple. That act by his staffer indicates that the Paul Campaign is willing to compromise principles based on political expediency. The integrity and honor pedestal you placed Paul upon is not so stable if this action is any indicator.


I wonder if any canadates would be eager to be photographedwith a group of clowns?

Ringling Brothers runs a Clown Colledge in Florida, it is supposed to be a tough school where they really train for show business.

But I haven't seen a canadate trying to get the clown vote with a photo like that.

It seems as if canadates must blandify themselvs to avoidlooseing the vote of the suerficial voter.

BT

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2007, 09:59:37 PM »
Quote
It seems as if canadates must blandify themselvs to avoidlooseing the vote of the suerficial voter.

One would expect a candidate touted as so uncompromising in his ideals to not be so pragmatic.


Plane

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2007, 10:04:44 PM »
Quote
It seems as if canadates must blandify themselvs to avoidlooseing the vote of the suerficial voter.

One would expect a candidate touted as so uncompromising in his ideals to not be so pragmatic.



They all hire pros to help project themselves, but these pro's have all read the same textbook.

Are you saying that Ron Paul is not as diffrent  as he should be?

BT

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Re: GOP Can Learn from Ron Paul
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2007, 10:33:02 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that Ron Paul is not as diffrent  as he should be?


I am saying there is no evidence that he is as different as his supporters say he is.

Even if his staffers were the actors, the message was his.

When Sheehan went off message for Hillary, he was fired.