Author Topic: The Criminal "Administration"  (Read 6249 times)

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sirs

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2007, 09:14:24 PM »
People do NOT have these things. (cars, computers, cable TV, etc., etc., etc)

YES, they do.  Compared to ACTUAL poor countries and their impoverished citizens, our "poor" look like Soros's to them.  So, despite the digging of your head in the sand and decrying "la la la la la la la la la la la la you can't make me listen la la la la la la la....", reality I'm afraid trumps your position of some finite wealth pie chart.  And even your liberal in arms Brass has conceded that fact. 

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2007, 09:23:41 PM »

All the things you are listing there are simply carrots for the mules.  Even if a family has all the things you list, that does not mean they have any freedom.  The American Capitalist society is built on a solid foundation of fear.

Fear of the Jones' looking better than us.  Fear that our children may not have everything they may ever want.  Fear that we are failing to reach our potential which to most Americans means having two cars, two TV's, two computers and so forth.




Ahhh...
So the problem of the poor is not poverty, but lack of freedom.

And fear.

I can buy that , but I don't see how the relative wealth of any other person worsens a poor persons fear or restriction on freedom.

Richpo64

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2007, 03:41:09 PM »
>>People do NOT have these things. They are leasing the cars, perhaps the TV's and furniture as well. The fact is that they are simply being allowed to pay for these things. And of course, when you buy stuff new from the store on credit, you really can't negotiate the price much, either. Most so-called "middle-class" Americans are in hock up to their gazingas.<<

Isn't putting something on a credit card a personal choice? If you can't pay for it, don't buy it and don't ask me to sympathize with you when you can't. Why doesn't the left believe in personal responsibility? I pay my bills, and so should you.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2007, 03:50:49 PM »
I don't owe any credit card for longer than the grace period. My house has been paid for since 1997, and I have not made one car payment since 1976.

But this is not the argument. Your lame argument is that people HAVE all these things, and they don't own them, the bank does. You claim that they own their own homes, but they don't, they never will, the BANKS own it all. That is not prosperity. You can't call it prosperity, no one can.

Perhaps it's exploitation of fools, perhaps it's stupidity, but the one thing it isn't, is prosperity.

Giving fools credit is not the same as their earning stuff.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

yellow_crane

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2007, 09:07:43 PM »
I don't owe any credit card for longer than the grace period. My house has been paid for since 1997, and I have not made one car payment since 1976.

But this is not the argument. Your lame argument is that people HAVE all these things, and they don't own them, the bank does. You claim that they own their own homes, but they don't, they never will, the BANKS own it all. That is not prosperity. You can't call it prosperity, no one can.

Perhaps it's exploitation of fools, perhaps it's stupidity, but the one thing it isn't, is prosperity.

Giving fools credit is not the same as their earning stuff.




When you examine the mythical ethic and ethos of America, pre--celebrity-as-hero, many of our bona fide heroes are folks like Jesse James, Bonnie and Clyde and various other bad-doers whose success was often supported by a sympathetic public who applauded their actions and their targets--banks who were gathering up residential and farming morguages like berries is a rich patch.

Couple this with the blood spilled gaining labor rights, you have a pretty good idea of what, beyond all the very cerebral rationales, it will take to once again wrest the country back from the super-duper capitalists.

My litmus for where we are currently iin this regard is watching the President-as-CEO-construct.

Romney clearly would establish this projection, and to harden the cement, would need enough of the mojoed out there who cannot see the tragedy of not knowing the difference between what our actual tradition has established as a job description for the president of the United States, and that of a CEO, who inarguabling is usually a ruthless and soulless stereotype serving as role model for all the encouraged criminal behavior beneath him.

FDR called in the power bankers and told them that they had run the government, and starting that day the goverment was running the banks.  The banker's holiday.

What a stunning rectification that would be today.




Plane

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2007, 12:45:16 AM »
Are the Banks free of FDR's impositions now?

When did that happen?

Brassmask

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2007, 01:31:37 AM »
Ahhh, the ever famous "even if..." response tact, where even if what I've said is true (as manifested by Brass's concession of "Technically, what you are saying is true.  People do have more things today".  I hope Xo was paying attention to that alledged BS, just espoused by Brass), it's not because....well because it just doesn't fit into the leftest template of how selfish "the rich" are, and how in need "the poor" are, and how evil Capitalism is supposed to be.  Thus we need socialist liberals to redistribute wealth, because they know better how to spend it than those that actually make it, thus perpetuating the same proplems.  But at least they feel better

Scary, isn't it

Let's try not to put worths in my mouth.  OK?

Yes, I would love to see a revolution in this country and see a complete conversion to something like my long-proposed RBE plan but even I, an idealistic dreamer, know that is not going to happen in my lifetime.  (I can hope and dream and help how I can though.) 

This is a totally different subject on, yes, of course, the same theme.

We're talking about reality here.  The only thing I might refine is the allegation that the middle class is shrinking.  That may not be exactly accurate.  What I feel is a more accurate metaphor for what is happening in this country is the idea that the rising tide is not lifting all the boats/ships.

As was stated before in the thread, productivity has shot up.  That only benefits the owners of the companies/businesses.  Wages have remained stagnant.  As XO stated, the 'middle class' is in hock real bad.  People graduating from college are starting out saddled with debt that will take them decades to pay off.  The conservative might take the stance that those who can't afford to go to college maybe shouldn't.  The same conservative might also take the stance that those borrowing the money to go to school should understand what they're getting themselves into.  Caveat emptor and all that.  But these are absolutes that when adhered to can only result in a less educated (more controllable) society.  These ideals, when held together, actually work in detriment to the overall stereotypical American ideals of Equality and Democracy.

For, you see, while it is true that all men are created equal (and equally in the same manner), sadly, in this country especially, all men are not afforded the same opportunities.  The right continually hypes the idea of supporting new businesses and small business but surely everyone would agree that small businesses by and large fail.  Why do they fail?  Poor business decisions, poor planning, poor standards, of course.  Whose fault is that?  The business owners', of course, are to blame; but, where should a business owner get the knowledge, the basic building block of every new business?  Hands on experience is great stuff.  A guy who gets a job as a brick layer might love to start his own company and hire brick layers to work for him and according to his standards but he might not know the first thing about how to keep the books and pay the taxes.

He might have learnt how if he had had the opportunity to go to a school of higher learning and gotten a simple business degree.  This would allow Americans more choice, more freedom.  If American went to college, said Americans might still opt to go into the family trade of brick-laying.  This only behooves American Society as a whole.

This is where conservative ideal regarding boot straps is sorely lacking and winds up shooting itself in the foot.  The conservative alleges a love for small business but doesn't want anyone getting a "free ride" even though it is in their own self-interest to give everyone a somewhat short free ride in view of the big picture.  Imagine a society where everyone gets the education their want thereby giving rise to untold competition which results in lower prices, expanded economy and a better quality of life for all.  Not to mention, less interest in "free rides" thus fewer Brassmask-type communists.

But they would rather adhere to strict beliefs rather than have their way.

We are living in a new Gilded Age.  The robber barons have finally acknowledged that their operating costs must now include government officials, nay, the entire government, if they are to retain and increase their overall power and ability to control their entire environment of egotistical entitlement.  They've acquired the American government in a hostile takeover and now intend to run it into the ground like a former competitor.

Rants aside, I'm not seeking to re-distribute wealth in the manner that you are envisioning.  At this point and in realistic terms, those in the top ten percent that control the predominance of American wealth now feel secure enough in their greed and governmental insulation to throw caution to the wind and slowly re-introduce American to the 1890's way of life with the overwhelming percentage of the population looking on the ?ber-wealthy as their default royalty and sovereigns.  These barons, of course, see nothing wrong with that since to them they have everything that should afford them the right to direct and control all aspects of American society.  They also believe they Smith-Barneyed all that control since they either inherited their wealth and then went to the right college and belonged to the right fraternity (or shadowy cult-like social group) or they "did what had to be done".

The scariest part of all of it is they DO have that power because if there is ever anyone of high profile or, gods forfend, a fellow ?ber-wealthy person who tries to equal things up for all Americans, like a George Soros, then that person because the target of The Machine.

The reality is if the Modern Barons don't stop buying their own hype and go easy on the in-your-face $6000 shower curtain lifestyles, they are actually putting themselves in the cross-hairs of socialist revolution.  The MB's have actually succeeded in de-fanging the unions for the moment.  (Note the current crumbling writers' strike solidarity.)  By rendering the populace politically powerless and lowering their overall wherewithal, the MB's have set themselves up for destroying their precious though precarious positions of prominence the way those types have always been destroyed: by revolutionary mobs armed at best with words and passionate persuasion, at worst with guns and blunt instruments.

Of course, through their influence with their tools in entertainment and infotainment and political plants, they have convinced many Americans that all is well and good and those who think there is a shadowy cabal controlling everything are kooks with keyboards.  There need be no meetings in castles or Watergate hotels.  There are like-minded individuals who may not even know of each other who act in like-mind simply because of their conservative beliefs in self.  If their actions behoove those of like wealth and power, then all the better but the main directive is to consolidate one's power thereby, if the conversation over over-priced cocktails and rubber chicken should hint at shared beliefs and necessities, allowing a few to enforce their will on the many while ensuring that the many don't catch wise.

What the CEO's and owners and stock holders of corporations and conglomerates have forgotten is everything outside of the bottom line.  They get so greedy in the now, the immediate frame of mind that they lose sight of future concerns and protections of their status.  They forget how the last robber barons met their downfall because groups of men and women organized and took the beatings at the hands of goon squads and stood their ground to demand more of a share of the profits.

They forget that were it not for the men and women who help them maintain their positions of power, they might have to lift a finger and do a real day's work.  They forget that when they "raise productivity" by lowering staff, in reality, they are lowering the quality of life for as little as one person or as much as a whole family and sometimes a whole community.

The cries of nationality are loud and passionate when it is all about consolidating power and resources but never when it is for keeping Americans working.

If the MB's were smart they would maintain a living wage hike every year for all employees.  They would take smaller bonuses and spread the profits throughout the business in perks and raises and more employees to lower workloads. 

Let the tide raise all boats because when all the smaller boats start sinking under the added weight of debt, desperate heads of families will do whatever it takes to keep their families alive.  And when their only hope is to climb onto the only boats afloat, convince the crew of those ships to mutiny and kill the captains of those boats in order to save their own families, who would blame them for doing so?

"Not I," said the little, red hen.

Brassmask

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2007, 01:36:07 AM »
People do NOT have these things. (cars, computers, cable TV, etc., etc., etc)

YES, they do.  Compared to ACTUAL poor countries and their impoverished citizens, our "poor" look like Soros's to them.  So, despite the digging of your head in the sand and decrying "la la la la la la la la la la la la you can't make me listen la la la la la la la....", reality I'm afraid trumps your position of some finite wealth pie chart.  And even your liberal in arms Brass has conceded that fact. 



In the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.  That's your take on things?

To build on that, the world we're living in is ruled by men that have lent blind men one eye so that those now-one-eyed men might spent their days finding more eyes for the men who rule from piles of eyes.

Your stance that those in Africa look upon the likes of me with my two cars and house with floor furnaces and window units as kings does not negate the fact that the rich are getting richer and everyone else is staying the same.

sirs

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2007, 02:14:52 AM »
People do NOT have these things. (cars, computers, cable TV, etc., etc., etc)

YES, they do.  Compared to ACTUAL poor countries and their impoverished citizens, our "poor" look like Soros's to them.  So, despite the digging of your head in the sand and decrying "la la la la la la la la la la la la you can't make me listen la la la la la la la....", reality I'm afraid trumps your position of some finite wealth pie chart.  And even your liberal in arms Brass has conceded that fact. 

In the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.  That's your take on things?

No.  Next question?


Your stance that those in Africa look upon the likes of me with my two cars and house with floor furnaces and window units as kings does not negate the fact that the rich are getting richer and everyone else is staying the same.

Ahh, now we have a slightly altered tact.  Instead of the rich getting richer and the poor getting pooer, as Xo tries to push, now the poor are simply not going anywhere.  Which again is a fallacy, since there is movement in all classes, all the time, poor moving to middle class, middle class moving to "the rich", some "rich" making bonehead dicisions in the stock market and going back to the poor.  Just like with Xo, trying to inaccurately paint wealth as some supposed finite pie chart, Brass is inaccurately trying to paint some static status position that everyone is stuck to.  Bottom line, most everyone is getting richer, simply that "the rich" manage to attain a greater amount, compared to the rest.  Simple as that 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2007, 02:55:28 AM »
We're talking about reality here.  The only thing I might refine is the allegation that the middle class is shrinking.  That may not be exactly accurate.  What I feel is a more accurate metaphor for what is happening in this country is the idea that the rising tide is not lifting all the boats/ships.

As was stated before in the thread, productivity has shot up.  That only benefits the owners of the companies/businesses.  Wages have remained stagnant.  As XO stated, the 'middle class' is in hock real bad.  People graduating from college are starting out saddled with debt that will take them decades to pay off.  The conservative might take the stance that those who can't afford to go to college maybe shouldn't.  The same conservative might also take the stance that those borrowing the money to go to school should understand what they're getting themselves into.  Caveat emptor and all that.  But these are absolutes that when adhered to can only result in a less educated (more controllable) society.  These ideals, when held together, actually work in detriment to the overall stereotypical American ideals of Equality and Democracy.

For, you see, while it is true that all men are created equal (and equally in the same manner), sadly, in this country especially, all men are not afforded the same opportunities.  The right continually hypes the idea of supporting new businesses and small business but surely everyone would agree that small businesses by and large fail.  Why do they fail?  Poor business decisions, poor planning, poor standards, of course.  Whose fault is that?  The business owners', of course, are to blame; but, where should a business owner get the knowledge, the basic building block of every new business?  Hands on experience is great stuff.  A guy who gets a job as a brick layer might love to start his own company and hire brick layers to work for him and according to his standards but he might not know the first thing about how to keep the books and pay the taxes.


I love itwhen you write like this .

Not a fact in the bushel , but lots of passion.

Great stuff.

Did you know that it is tipical for a successfull buiness to the the third try of its founder after a cupple of heartbreaking failures?
Did you think the original GI bill a success?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2007, 07:49:30 AM »
Did you know that it is tipical for a successfull buiness to the the third try of its founder after a cupple of heartbreaking failures?


==========================================
Did you actually READ this sentence?

What the poo are you trying to say? What is your point?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Brassmask

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2007, 01:25:48 PM »
People do NOT have these things. (cars, computers, cable TV, etc., etc., etc)

YES, they do.  Compared to ACTUAL poor countries and their impoverished citizens, our "poor" look like Soros's to them.  So, despite the digging of your head in the sand and decrying "la la la la la la la la la la la la you can't make me listen la la la la la la la....", reality I'm afraid trumps your position of some finite wealth pie chart.  And even your liberal in arms Brass has conceded that fact. 

In the world of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.  That's your take on things?

No.  Next question?


Your stance that those in Africa look upon the likes of me with my two cars and house with floor furnaces and window units as kings does not negate the fact that the rich are getting richer and everyone else is staying the same.

Ahh, now we have a slightly altered tact.  Instead of the rich getting richer and the poor getting pooer, as Xo tries to push, now the poor are simply not going anywhere.  Which again is a fallacy, since there is movement in all classes, all the time, poor moving to middle class, middle class moving to "the rich", some "rich" making bonehead dicisions in the stock market and going back to the poor.  Just like with Xo, trying to inaccurately paint wealth as some supposed finite pie chart, Brass is inaccurately trying to paint some static status position that everyone is stuck to.  Bottom line, most everyone is getting richer, simply that "the rich" manage to attain a greater amount, compared to the rest.  Simple as that 

The rich are getting richer, that is without doubt. 
There IS a finite pie chart of America's wealth.  Did you even look at the article I linked?  Whether the average middle class family is wealthier that the average middle class family in 1960 is moot.  In relation to the top ten percent who control the most of America's wealth, the average middle class family has not risen in wealth comparable to the average top ten percenter.  And the POOR have definitely gotten poorer.

Now you may say that there is no reason to compare the top ten percenters to the middle class in relation to growth in wealth.  Well, I disagree.  The janitor is just as important as the CEO or the owner of a corporation or company and, in a decent, ethical world, the janitor should share in the success of said company at an equivalent rate.  If wages and wealth rise, the only decent thing would be to raise everyone's rather than only a few at the very top levels.

You seem to live under the fallacy that the owner/CEOs/shareholders do all the work.  That just isn't so.

sirs

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2007, 02:05:20 PM »
The rich are getting richer, that is without doubt. 

And has anyone said something otherwise?  Your apparent jealousy aside, the fact is the Poor are ALSO getting richer, as are those in the middle class


There IS a finite pie chart of America's wealth.

That kinda refutes your already declared position of how the poor are aquiring more material goods, services and perks, such as TV's, Cars, computers, etc.  So, which is it?


You seem to live under the fallacy that the owner/CEOs/shareholders do all the work.  That just isn't so.

Nope, never said or implied that either.  NEARLY everyone is doing work, in some form or fashion, so try applying your misrepresentations elsewhere, if you don't mind
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2007, 04:13:00 PM »
sirs,

You seem to only be posting replies simply to be contrary and not to try to meet someone halfway with some kind of resolution.

I'm done.

B

sirs

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Re: The Criminal "Administration"
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2007, 04:22:33 PM »
sirs, You seem to only be posting replies simply to be contrary and not to try to meet someone halfway with some kind of resolution.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but where is the halfway part in taking someone eles's hard earned money and "giving" it to others that YOU have determined needs it more.  Where is my say in that decision making?


I'm done.

Ok.  Still doesn't refute the facts of everyone including the poor getting richer in this country, under that dreaded capitalistic system, or you clarifying which is it; a finite wealth pie chart, or that everyone has technically gotten richer in this country, but when you're done, you're obviously done
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 04:39:05 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle