Author Topic: Why so scared of Christmas?  (Read 49976 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2007, 01:59:46 PM »
It is NOT about what the merchants do with their goddamned books. That is something for their accountants to ponder.

It is about their answer to the press to the question about "What kind of year was 2007", by which is meant the period between Jan. 1sta dn Dec. 31st, 2007.

It is rather like the popular crap about the stock market. The news always mentions the DJIA, which is only 30 large and rather arbitrarily selected companies in the US. The best indicators of the stock market in the US are other indices, like the S&P 500, and the Wilshire 4000 and 5000 and the NASDAQ.

The calendar year and the DJIA are what they feed the masses, because the various taxable years and fiscal years and market indices are just too complicated for the average clown to comprehend.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2007, 02:14:23 PM »
A very nice compilation of the traditional tale. I had seem much of this before, but did not remember it all. Thanks.


Some thoughts on this:


In the Millennium, He will also receive the gifts of gold and frankincense;" but no myrrh: His death was once and for all.

=================================================
Sounds to me like the Magi were a bit off base with the myrrh, then. Jesus hardly used his myrrh. Maybe they had to go out and buy more myrrh to embalm him, because he really didn't stay dead for long, and probably not even long enough to stink. (Does a deceased perfect and divine being stink? That is one to ponder). There is no mention in the Gospel about Jesus or Mary saying, "wait, don't go out and buy any myrrh: we have some top-quality, Grade-A Myrrh from some Persians that dropped by a long time ago.

There is no mention of what Joseph, Mary and Jesus did with the gold or the Frankincense, either. WE have a lot of Biblical scholars roaming about, but they don;['t seem to care about this.

Most Christians I know would get really pissed if we were to suggest that Jesus was dead once and for all.

One wonders why Jesus and God need anyone to give them gold. I mean, all they have to do is create some, right? When you are omnipotent, you don;t need Visa or Mastercard: you just snap your fingers and *poof!*  Gold, Kruggerrands, Yen, Euros, Drachma, Renmin or Dollars, all you need. It's not like Treasury is going to nail the Almighty for counterfeiting, right?
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sirs

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2007, 02:20:57 PM »
Are you really supported the lie of the "war on christmas"?

Ummm, no.  Did you read ANY of my query?  Why are so many so scared of Christmas?  As I said, I have my own theories, that I won't expect anyone to fess up to.


The problem is not everyone celebrates Christmas and not every America believes in "God" or even a specific "god".  

Fine, DON'T.  But you'll be hard pressed to find anything in the Constitution that says such folks have some right not to be offended by those who DO


And could you please cite the case where the ACLU is trying to shut down the utterance of "Merry Christmas"?

Never said specifically that.  the reference is how they go apesnot anytime Christmas, its theme, and its decorations, (and I won't even mention prayer) are being bandied about in either the classroom or even in Public office buildings, with the subsequent threat of civil litigation if such acts aren't stopped.  Nothing so specific as uttering "Merry Christmas"

Sheeeesh


And would you lump Condi Rice and George Bush into the Christmas hating crowd?

Why, are they active members of the ACLU, advocating lawsuits or legislation to abolish religion from the public arena, contrary to the Constitution?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 03:03:04 PM by sirs »
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Cynthia

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2007, 02:30:31 PM »
Christmas is basically a folk custom used to insure a net profit for businesses at the end of the year.


So, is the original point in question based on your statement....that  "Christmas, which is a folk custom is USED TO INSURE" (implying for the sole purpose of a gain in net profit)?


or,  do we read between the lines....to find that you possibly meant... "Christmas just happens to come as a matter of profitable convenience" ?


Just curious, as I have reread the posts on this thread,your statement seems to be the rib-bone of contention here.


If it is USED TO INSURE....then that implies that Chicken came before the golden egg.....



Cynthia

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2007, 02:35:15 PM »
A very nice compilation of the traditional tale. I had seem much of this before, but did not remember it all. Thanks.


Some thoughts on this:


In the Millennium, He will also receive the gifts of gold and frankincense;" but no myrrh: His death was once and for all.

=================================================
Sounds to me like the Magi were a bit off base with the myrrh, then. Jesus hardly used his myrrh. Maybe they had to go out and buy more myrrh to embalm him, because he really didn't stay dead for long, and probably not even long enough to stink. (Does a deceased perfect and divine being stink? That is one to ponder). There is no mention in the Gospel about Jesus or Mary saying, "wait, don't go out and buy any myrrh: we have some top-quality, Grade-A Myrrh from some Persians that dropped by a long time ago.

There is no mention of what Joseph, Mary and Jesus did with the gold or the Frankincense, either. WE have a lot of Biblical scholars roaming about, but they don;['t seem to care about this.

Most Christians I know would get really pissed if we were to suggest that Jesus was dead once and for all.

One wonders why Jesus and God need anyone to give them gold. I mean, all they have to do is create some, right? When you are omnipotent, you don;t need Visa or Mastercard: you just snap your fingers and *poof!*  Gold, Kruggerrands, Yen, Euros, Drachma, Renmin or Dollars, all you need. It's not like Treasury is going to nail the Almighty for counterfeiting, right?




Gotta love your posts, XO...I must say they give me a chuckle.

Well, I do think from reading about the "gifts" that they were used for specific reasons. Not just for Jesus.

You're right about the Dead thing......but he was no longer a human on earth.....perhpas that's what was meant.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2007, 04:03:54 PM »
I can imagine some Medieval scholars debating this for days. If Jesus is God, and Jesus is perfect and free from corruption, then he could not decay and rot, and therefore the myrrh was superfluous, so what was the point of the Magi coming?

Well, another would say, it was to herald that he was to be not just the King of the Jews, as it said on the Croiss, but King of all Mankind, hence there was representation and recognition from all Mankind in name of the Magi.

But the Magi were not completely aware of what the Messiah would be, being pagans and all, another would poiunt out.

Yet another monk would have to address the fact that the sign "King of the Jews" was written by Romans, in mockery, since Jesus was King of Everyone.

And so it would go, on and on, though not so entirely detailed as Talmudic scholars, who have always excelled at this sort of thing.

Now we have teevee and DVDs and CD's and be entertained without troubling our minds nearly so much. We just debate whether one of the chick in the three-chick chorus on "The Little Shop of Horrors" also played Tisha on Martin and what was her name, anyway?




"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2007, 06:51:17 PM »
yeah they are all so scared of christmas
dont say "Merry Christmas" say "Happy Holidays"
It's not a "Christmas Tree" it's a "Holiday Tree"
They are not "Christmas Lights" they are "Holiday Lights"
Blah blah blah lets all vomit
funny how they all seem to enjoy the economics of CHRISTmas
but they don't want to admit it is CHRISTmas.
i wonder what's it's like to live a lie?

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Brassmask

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2007, 06:59:45 PM »
The ACLU does not file complaints on its own behalf.  They only file on the behalf of others.

If there is lawsuit against "Christmas", it is because someone from the community wanted one filed.

Why is it you crazy christians are so intent on ostracizing people?  Calling something a holiday tree or holiday lights is all inclusive and makes the holiday accessible to all.  You'd think that would make you all so happy, but it doesn't because people aren't celebrating the season the way you want it to be celebrated. 

It's all about hate for you people, isn't it?  Hate and control.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2007, 07:17:06 PM »
Funny how they all seem to enjoy the economics of CHRISTmas
but they don't want to admit it is CHRISTmas.
i wonder what's it's like to live a lie?

-----------------------------------------------------------\

Christmas is actually Christ Mass, a Mass, or religious celebration commemorating the birth of Jesus.

But this holiday has come to mean something entirely different in modern American culture. The religious ceremony came to include a family feast in England and other European countries, and later, an exchange of gifts. Observe that in Dicken's tale "A Christmas Carol", even after mean Mr Scrooge became  Amazingly Kind Mr Scrooge, he did not present any gift other than a large goose to the Cratchett family. Timt Tim did not even get a new crutch, although it was indicated that at some later date, Scrooge would pay for medical treatments for the lad's crippled condition. There were no presents because presents were not yet a feature of Christmas, even in the 1870's when this tale was written.

Now, of course, Christmas has become a time for mass overconsumption and largesse. At no point did Jesus suggest that anyone celebrate his birth at all, let alone with mass gifting. He only suggested a form of ritual cannibalism at Eastertime. (This is my blood, drink in remembrance of me...this is my body, eat in remembrance of me).

There are many in the US who do not partcipate in the gifting: Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. And there are many others who choose to participate in the gifting, but reject the concept that Jesus was the Messiah, or is  third (or perhaps second)  part of a three-pronged Deity.

You are saying, if I do not misunderstand, that you feel that one must believe in Jesus and the whole Messiah bit on order to deserve to sit on Santa's lap, give or receive gifts, or wish one's fellow men a hearty Merry Christmas, or substitute a similar saying, such as "season's greetings" or "Happy Holidays", just because one is Jewish, Moslem, or simply a nonbeliever in the whole Jesus schtick.

But the thing is that most of what has come to be a Christmas tradition is pretty much entirely unrelated to the birth of Jesus, anyway. And trhen the meaning of Jesus birth seems a tad exaggerated here, because at the moment Jesus was born, pretty much the entire planet was entirely unaware both of the birth and the significance of said birth. I mean people carried on as they always had: they did not immediately feel the huge burden of Evil Sin lifted from their shoulders at the instant of Jesus birth, did they? No such claims are made in the Bible, so far as I have read.

The Bible only mentions the birth of an infant Deity, under unusual circumstances that probably did not seem too unusual at the moment of his birth, followed by the ostensible attempt at unsuccessful  multiple homicide and failed Deicide by the wicked Herod I.
 
What happened is that Jesus lived in almost total anonimity until about the time of his Bar Mizrtvah, around which he ran away from his parents and astonished a few Rabbis, and then he sank back into anonimity once more, only to surface for the last 12 to 24 months of his life.

So I am not sure why you feel so annoyed by those who celebrate Christmas without recognizing Jesus as Christians do, because that has become a far lesser part of the Christmas ritual.

Maybe some should celebrate Christmas, and the rest could simply celebrate Xmas.

I wish you all a Merry Christmas, as well as a most Merry Xmas as well! Ho !  Ho!  Ho!
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2007, 07:21:35 PM »

It's all about hate for you people, isn't it?  Hate and control.

============================================
Control, yes, but not necessarily hate. It seems more like the more involved Christians are merely annoyed that others might place gifts under a recently deceased tree without acknowleging the virgin birth of a wee Deity among oriental magicians, visiting shepherds and their accompanying sheep, and other assorted livestock.

 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2007, 08:52:04 PM »
The ACLU does not file complaints on its own behalf.  They only file on the behalf of others.

Perhaps you missed the part where I made reference to the ACLU and LIKE minds, those being the ones who are offened to the point that they rally the ACLU to their cause, and the ACLU is quite happy to follow-up.


Why is it you crazy christians are so intent on ostracizing people? 

Why is it you crazy non-Christians are so scared of Christmas??  I can't help if someone else is "offended" by my faith.  That's their problem not mine.  And the Constitution is SUPPOSED to protect that right, but instead we have these loud minority getting offened and claiming to be "ostracized" at the mere appearance of a nativity scene on display in a classroom, or a cross in someone's office cubicle, when NO ONE IS MANDATING THAT THEY MUST FOLLOW SAID RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.  You can call a Christmas tree anything you want.  But legislating & litigating that others can't flies directly counter to the 1st amendment, if you hadn't noticed


Calling something a holiday tree or holiday lights is all inclusive and makes the holiday accessible to all.  You'd think that would make you all so happy, but it doesn't because people aren't celebrating the season the way you want it to be celebrated.   It's all about hate for you people, isn't it?  Hate and control.

AHHHHH, Brass starts to touch on the real nefarious theory I have of why so many are so scared of Christmas.  The fringe left and hard core PC crowd want a world where no one is ever offended, we all just become robotic automatons, all waving and moving at the same speed, make the same pay, same everything, where a Janitor makes the same amount as a multinational CEO.  And what kind of world does that produce?  One that is so much more easily controlled.  Everyone in a mind-numbing stupor, where those who know better (The Government, run by liberals & socialists of course) tell us what we need, when we need it, what we're to eat, how we're to act, how we're to spend our money, and of course if need be, spend it for us, ......all for the better of all of of course. 

No Brass, it has nothing to do with hate, it has everything to do with Freedom.  Our founders knew that, even way back when, which is why the 1st amendment was made the FIRST and most important one.  Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of expression, where Government is NOT to prevent either.  There is no right not to be offended by my beliefs, but there is an absolute right for you to allow me to practice them.  So, the control you leftists would love to embrace will NEVER happen with folks like myself populating this country.  That notion is dead in the water, which is why the 2nd amendment is the next most important right we have
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2007, 01:26:12 AM »
Gotta be one of the most bizarre threads I ever came across, and in this group, that's really saying something.

The craziest assertion in the whole thread was that folks must be SCARED of Christmas if they object to publicly funded recognition of the holiday.  Talk about leaping to conclusions.  ACLU files against City Hall creche, therefore (no other explanation possible!) ACLU must be SCARED of the creche, or scared of the holiday it represents.  I guess by this kind of crazed "logic," anyone who files a suit against anythng must be doing it out of fear.  Fear is the universal motive behind all suits for injunctive relief.

For your information, sirs, people who do not adhere to the Christian religion are not necessarily "scared" of it, any more than they are "scared" of the Tooth Fairy or any other ludicrous BS that the naive and the uninformed choose to believe in.  Since the True Believers in the Christmas legend tend to have been a lot more lethal over time than the followers of the Tooth Fairy, there is good reason to fear them or at least to fear them taking control of any government that has powerful killing machines at its disposal.  The U.S. government is an excellent example of such a government.  However, there is little danger of them springboarding into power in the U.S. through the public display of nativity scenes or City Hall Christmas trees.

Here is a simple explanation that is much more plausible than your off-the-wall crypto-fascist ravings of dark underground conspiracies of non-Believers:  people who do not believe in the Christian religion are OFFENDED at seeing their own tax dollars put to work promoting it in the name of the whole community.  Because they are tax-paying members of that very community and they feel that such displays are disrespectful of themselves as Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists or whatever the f**k they happen to be.  They will donate generously to the ACLU or any other organization that will fight to stop this public disrespect for non-Christian religions, atheists, agnostics and others.  Because they don't like to be publicly insulted.

The Constitution of the U.S.A. is quite clear about this:  <<Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;>>  A public nativity scene requires a public expenditure of public funds and/or the use of publicly owned land; which in turn requires a law authorizing such expenditure or use.  Such a law if it tended to "establish" a religion, Christianity in this case, would be unconstitutional.  A religion is established, more or less firmly, according to how much support and encouragement, particularly public support and encouragement, it receives.  Using City Hall or federal or state property to support a Christian viewpoint, for example, by displaying a nativity scene, is "establishing" that religion.

So we have activity which is both offensive to many people and unconstitutional.  Naturally the ACLU is going after it.  If you don't like it, try to change the Constitution.  Get rid of the anti-Establishment clause.  Lotsa luck.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 01:29:17 AM by Michael Tee »

BT

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2007, 03:02:53 AM »
So let's say there is a village green. And some folks want to get married on that green. And as part of that ceremony they have a minister officiate.

Is that

1. Offensive
2. Establishing
3. Unconstitutional use of public lands?

« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 03:31:06 AM by BT »

Michael Tee

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2007, 09:10:56 AM »
Good questions. 

Kinda reminds me of Freud's aphorism, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar," because sometimes a wedding is just a wedding.  Offensiveness really depends on purpose and intent.  If Mr. & Mrs. Joe Blow just want to get married there for sentimental reasons, of course it's inoffensive.  If their pastor goes into some rant about how Christians gotta start somewhere in reclaiming "their" public space and he won't marry any of his flock anywhere else BUT the village green, then it's the opening salvo in a war on non-Christian religions and atheists and it becomes highly offensive.

Whenever questions of intent and purpose are involved, the society has to be careful because nobody can read minds.  The possibility of innocent intent is there, as is the possibility of unscrupulous abuse by feigned innocence.  In a situation like that, I would think the proper response would be either of the following two alternatives:

1.  Yeah, sure, come one, come all and get married here if you wish.  Only in a purely secular setting - - the person officiating will be a municipal or state employee paid by the state (and reimbursed by you) following a strictly secular protocol.  No hymns, no religious symbols, etc.  Oh, what's that?  You'd like a little Jesus in your ceremony?  Nice touch, IMHO.  There's a place for stuff like that.  It's called a church.  Ever heard of it?

OR . . .

2.  Gee, Billy Bob and Lee-Ann, I'm so sorry but because some of the people who wanted to get married on this here village green wanted to do so under a 40-foot statue of Jesus and there's no telling what others might want in their ceremony, we've had to invoke the non-establishment clause and say no to everyone.  Why don't you just haul out the ole Yellow Pages and find yourselves a church, synagogue, mosque or temple of your choice, or even a good hotel or banquet hall like most everyone else does anyway and have yourselves one real helluva wedding right there?

I guess, in short, the potential for abuse is real and the precautions against it are realistic and reasonable.  All clearly within the framework of that wonderful document, the Constitution of the United States of America, a stench in the nostrils of "conservatives" everywhere.  Too bad for them.

Amianthus

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Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2007, 09:15:05 AM »
[snippage]

You also posted a quote earlier: "The Constitution of the U.S.A. is quite clear about this:  <<Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;>>"

Don't both of your options violate the second part of that statement, serving to prohibit free exercise of religion?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)