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Richpo64

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Obama and Islam
« on: December 24, 2007, 06:44:09 PM »
Obama and Islam
By Daniel Pipes
FrontPageMagazine.com | 12/24/2007

?If I were a Muslim I would let you know,? Barack Obama has said, and I believe him. In fact, he is a practicing Christian, a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ. He is not now a Muslim.


But was he ever a Muslim or seen by others as a Muslim? More precisely, might Muslims consider him a murtadd (apostate), that is, a Muslim who converted to another religion and, therefore, someone whose blood may be shed?


The candidate for president of the United States has delivered two principal statements in reply. His campaign website carries a statement dated Nov. 12 with the headline, ?Barack Obama Is Not and Has Never Been a Muslim,? followed by: ?Obama never prayed in a mosque. He has never been a Muslim, was not raised a Muslim, and is a committed Christian.? Then, on Dec. 22, in the unlikely setting of the Smoky Row Coffee Shop in Oskaloosa, Iowa, as he munched on pumpkin pie and drank tea with four locals, Obama provided more detail took on this topic than before. When asked to explain his Muslim heritage, he replied:

My father was from Kenya, and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn?t practice Islam. Truth is he wasn?t very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I?ve always been a Christian. The only connection I?ve had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father?s side came from that country. But I?ve never practiced Islam. ? For a while, I lived in Indonesia because my mother was teaching there. And that?s a Muslim country. And I went to school. But I didn?t practice. But what I do think it does is it gives me insight into how these folks think, and part of how I think we can create a better relationship with the Middle East and that would help make us safer is if we can understand how they think about issues.

These statements raise two questions: What is Obama?s true connection to Islam and what implications might this have for an Obama presidency?

Was Obama Ever a Muslim?

?I?ve always been a Christian,? said Obama, focusing on his own personal lack of practice of Islam as a child to deny any connection to Islam. But Muslims do not see practice as key. For them, that he was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim. Further, all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama?s full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.


Further, family and friends considered him as a child to be Muslim. In ?Obama Debunks Claim About Islamic School,? Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007, that

Obama?s mother, divorced from Obama?s father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering ? Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.

Asked about this, Obama communications director Robert Gibbs responded by indicating to Pickler that he wasn?t sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim. ?Senator Obama has never been a Muslim.?

Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: ?Obama has never been a practicing Muslim.? The Times looked into the matter further and learned more about his Indonesian interlude:

His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama?s grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. ?We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque,? Zulfin Adi said. ?But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played.? ? Obama?s younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only ?for big communal events,? not every Friday.

Recalling Obama?s time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama ?went to the mosque,? and that he ?was Muslim.?

Summarized, available evidence suggests Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father. At some point, he converted to Christianity. It appears false to state, as Obama does, ?I?ve always been a Christian? and ?I?ve never practiced Islam.? The campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that ?Obama never prayed in a mosque.?

Implications of Obama?s Conversion

Obama?s conversion to another faith, in short, makes him a murtadd. That said, the punishment for childhood apostasy is less severe than for the adult version. As Robert Spencer points out, ?according to Islamic law an apostate male is not to be put to death if he has not reached puberty (cf. ?Umdat al-Salik o8.2; Hidayah vol. II p. 246). Some, however, hold that he should be imprisoned until he is of age and then ?invited? to accept Islam, but officially the death penalty for youthful apostates is ruled out.?


On the positive side, were Obama prominently charged with apostasy, that would uniquely raise the issue of a Muslim?s right to change religion, taking a topic on the perpetual back-burner and placing it front and center, perhaps to the great future benefit of those Muslims who seek to declare themselves atheists or to convert to another religion.


But would Muslims seeing Obama as a murtadd significantly affect an Obama presidency? The only precedent to judge by is that of Carlos Sa?l Menem, the president of Argentina from 1989 to 1999. The son of two Muslim Syrian immigrants and husband of another Syrian-Argentine, Zulema F?tima Yoma, Menem converted to Roman Catholicism. His wife said publicly that Menem left Islam for political reasons?because Argentinean law until 1994 required the president of the country to be a member of the Church. From a Muslim point of view, NYT 8 Jan 89Menem?s conversion is worse than Obama?s, having been done as an adult. Nonetheless, Menem was not threatened or otherwise made to pay a price for his change of religion, even during his trips to majority-Muslim countries, Syria in particular.


It is one thing to be president of Argentina in the 1990s, however, and another to be president of the United States in 2009. One must assume that some Islamists would renounce him as a murtadd and would try to execute him. Given the protective bubble surrounding an American president, though, this threat presumably would not make much difference to his carrying out his duties.


More significantly, how would more mainstream Muslims respond to him, would they be angry at what they would consider his apostasy? That reaction is a real possibility, one that could undermine his initiatives toward the Muslim world.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum and author of Miniatures (Transaction Publishers).

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2007, 07:31:37 PM »
Ah, Daniel Pipes, the celebrated Neo Con son of Richard Pipes. Imagine that the son of an immigrant could rise to be published in Front Page Magazine! Isn't this a wonderful country!?
   
If the Muslims did not try to murder Memem as an apostate, what makes Mr Pipes think that they would try to murder Obama? He does not say. I am wondering why not?

All this should mean is that we try to make sure that Obama has an acceptable Vice President, just in case. I don't think Dick Cheney would be acceptable to me, but I bet the Pipeses would really appreciate him.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Henny

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2007, 01:43:27 PM »
*Chuckle*

God forbid a candidate for POTUS be well educated and worldly.

Richpo64

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2007, 02:58:44 PM »
>>God forbid a candidate for POTUS be well educated and worldly.<<

I'd trade honest for worldy any time. Besides, does Muslim equal worldy now?

Plane

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2007, 04:20:20 PM »
As an American , I am not concerned whit a canadates religion unless it impacts the job I expect him to do once elected.

Generally no one cares what religion a canadate was previous to present or why he changed , Islam is an exception because it is in bad odor here , but this is hardly fair to Barack Obama. It isn't even fair to Islam.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2007, 04:57:05 PM »
So Daniel Pipes is concerned  - - as a scholar of all things Muslim, of course - - as to how the Muslim world would react to a Muslim apostate President.  Was Pipes ever similarly concerned with the Muslim reaction to a Jewish Zionist Veep and/or (by succession) President?  Methinks not.

Let's not kid ourselves - - the whole point of the article had nothing to do with Muslim reaction; the point was:  "Obama's mixed up with those Muslims up to his eyeballs" and "Obama lied about it."  A racist smear job from the usual Zionist sources.

Henny

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2007, 05:10:45 PM »
>>God forbid a candidate for POTUS be well educated and worldly.<<

I'd trade honest for worldy any time. Besides, does Muslim equal worldy now?

I haven't seen any reason to believe that Obama is less than honest. His track record is looking better than Romney's, for example.

So, is it that Obama talked to Muslims, lived with Muslims, learned about Islam and therefore he can't possibly be honest?

And to answer your question, no, Muslim does not necessarily equal worldly, but living in different countries and experiencing different education systems as Obama did most definitely is.

Richpo64

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2007, 05:27:30 PM »
>>Let's not kid ourselves - - the whole point of the article had nothing to do with Muslim reaction; the point was:  "Obama's mixed up with those Muslims up to his eyeballs" and "Obama lied about it."<<

I hope you wouldn?t kid yourself, but it?s obvious that?s what you?re doing. It IS possible to analyze Obama?s religion the same way it is possible to look at Governor Huckabee?s religion or Mitt Romney?s Mormonism as it might pertain to his ability to serve as President. In Obama?s case, if he ever was a Muslim, it has more of a possible impact on his ability to serve than either anyone of Christian faith. Then there is the question of how truthful Obama has been about it. Judging from what the article and other sources say, he hasn?t been honest at all, which shouldn?t surprise anyone considering he?d a democrat.

>>A racist smear job from the usual Zionist sources.<<

Another self hating Jew heard from.


Richpo64

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2007, 05:31:17 PM »
>>So, is it that Obama talked to Muslims, lived with Muslims, learned about Islam and therefore he can't possibly be honest?<<

Get the chip off your shoulder.

Considering every time the subject has come up, the story changes, I would say that yes, Obama is dishonest when it comes to this subject.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2007, 07:15:13 PM »
<<I hope you wouldn?t kid yourself, but it?s obvious that?s what you?re doing. It IS possible to analyze Obama?s religion the same way it is possible to look at Governor Huckabee?s religion or Mitt Romney?s Mormonism as it might pertain to his ability to serve as President. In Obama?s case, if he ever was a Muslim, it has more of a possible impact on his ability to serve than either anyone of Christian faith. >>

Nice try, but Pipes didn't even PRETEND that the issue related to Obama's ability to serve.  Read the article - - Pipes' feigned concern  was all about how the Muslims would perceive this "apostate."  That this is total bullshit is proven by the fact that Pipes never voiced any concern at all as to how the Muslims would react to a Jewish Zionist Veep when Lieberman was in the running.

<<Then there is the question of how truthful Obama has been about it. Judging from what the article and other sources say, he hasn?t been honest at all, which shouldn?t surprise anyone considering he?d a democrat.>>

Yeah, like Bush is some shining beacon of honesty and truthfulness.  Good grief.   LMFAO.  What kind of honesty do you get from flip-floppers like Romney or Giuliani, who seem willing to say anything at all to get elected?

<<Another self hating Jew heard from.>>

Better order up some new ad hominem insults from the Zionist propaganda machine quick, the old ones are all worn out.  You folks must be getting pretty desperate 'bout now.

gipper

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2007, 07:26:41 PM »
Obama's family connection to Islam is as relevant to his candidacy as JFK's Catholicism, or moreso because of its novelty and experiential spread from the life-experiences of most Americans. But as the comparison to JFK implies, it is resolvable in much the same way. Obama's early experiences with Muslim education in a foreign land, to me, are comparable to elite prep school education (which for Obama would have been an early American education) as opposed to a hard-scrabble public education where you were a kid in the minority. I'm sure there are times Obama identified with his Muslim teachers and had strong we-feelings for his fellow students but those experiences don't necessarily go to the core of what he's about any more than they would for an RC in a blue blood Protestant world (JFK). Don't confuse character and setting, but honestly examine how setting influences character. Not to be misunderstood, I add emphatically that I see nothing but upgrades to his personality from the early experiences in Obama's case.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2007, 07:38:48 PM »
I personally would like to see a lot less of this inquisition into a candidate's religious background, whether it be Mormon, Muslim or whatever, and a focus on track record and platform.  If character must be put in issue, then discuss character, not religion.

It's pretty clear to me that Pipes' article was meant to stoke fear and resentment of "Obama the Muslim" as a Muslim, despite all the window-dressing of scholarly talk and "trigeminal roots" and similar bullshit.  It was just despicable but far from unique.

The great fascination of Americans with religion and the accelerating erosion of the church/state separation wall are very obvious signs of the looming downfall of the whole country.  Basically an abandonment of the country's greatest ideals and a panicked leap into the arms of the snake-oil salesmen.

gipper

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2007, 07:42:48 PM »
Sometimes, Michael, not only do you not add anything to the discussion but you actually detract from it.

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2007, 07:50:45 PM »
What I added to the discussion, domer, was my own opinion, which is the point of being in the group.  I don't see how anybody's opinion detracts from any discussion, it's just a POV to be agreed or disagreed with.  Personally I don't feel that my opinions are inferior to anyone else's in this group, although I always stand willing to be corrected or rebutted.  If anything detracts from a discussion, it's ad hominem flames, advancing no argument, rebutting no argument.

gipper

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Re: Obama and Islam
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2007, 07:53:01 PM »
Not all opinions are equal nor worthy of response. Witness Pipes.