Author Topic: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated  (Read 22242 times)

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_JS

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2007, 05:09:21 PM »
JS, I'm awed by your encyclopedic knowledge. Do you carry these facts around in your head or research as the occasion warrants?

A bit of both as the occasion merits. In this case I was lucky enough to know quite a bit about Sharif from a good friend of mine who is Pakistani. He's not very well liked in his home country, but it is an emotional time and maybe he's close enough to a democrat to count.

I was telling someone earlier that I had just read an interview with both Musharraf and Bhutto in Newsweek on a flight back home from Seattle. The interviewer asked Bhutto if she feared an assassination attempt to which she replied that she did not believe her opponent would be so brazen as she was constantly in the public eye. Sadly, she was gravely mistaken.
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Plane

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2007, 05:17:11 PM »
Is  Benazir Bhutto a Martyer?

A Martyer for her party , or a Martyer for good government?

What is the attitude of the People there , I would be fed up to the eyes if I were a Packistani citizen , but I can't guess what expression this sort of frustration might take.

Brassmask

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2007, 05:26:16 PM »
Let's count the minutes, before those inflicted with BDS, start to imply that this is Bush's fault     :-\

I didn't even get a chance to count the minutes till you turned it into a poltical discussion.

How is this NOT a political issue??  The political ramifications are ENORMOUS, for not just the Middle East, but globally, as demonstrated in a majority of the posts already presented.  Did I steal your thunder?  Were you salivating at the idea of proposing how Bush was secretly in contact with Musharaff, and likely helped to organize this tragic event??      ::)


You couldn't wait to turn the discussion from the impact, the effects to an opportunity to poke those you don't like or often disagree with in the metaphorical eye.

You're really sick.

As always, I wait to see how it shakes out in the coming days.  Yes, I can envision this as being to Bush's benefit in regards to the ad campaign called "war on terror" (who can't?), but I will withold any definitive accusations till I see how the world will react.

I suspect once their concept of "a decent period of mourning", Bush, his cronies, advocates and pawns (like you) will begin spinning this to their hopeful benefit and will we wind up closer to the brink of all out nuclear war than during Kennedy's October Days.

Plane

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2007, 05:36:10 PM »
Let's count the minutes, before those inflicted with BDS, start to imply that this is Bush's fault     :-\

I didn't even get a chance to count the minutes till you turned it into a poltical discussion.

How is this NOT a political issue??  The political ramifications are ENORMOUS, for not just the Middle East, but globally, as demonstrated in a majority of the posts already presented.  Did I steal your thunder?  Were you salivating at the idea of proposing how Bush was secretly in contact with Musharaff, and likely helped to organize this tragic event??      ::)


You couldn't wait to turn the discussion from the impact, the effects to an opportunity to poke those you don't like or often disagree with in the metaphorical eye.

You're really sick.

As always, I wait to see how it shakes out in the coming days.  Yes, I can envision this as being to Bush's benefit in regards to the ad campaign called "war on terror" (who can't?), but I will withold any definitive accusations till I see how the world will react.

I suspect once their concept of "a decent period of mourning", Bush, his cronies, advocates and pawns (like you) will begin spinning this to their hopeful benefit and will we wind up closer to the brink of all out nuclear war than during Kennedy's October Days.

This reminds me of the headline joke,
In giant font above the fold ;
   Two Women from Georgia missing!
, lower on the page in much smaller type and wthout a picture is the story .
"Mexico City suffers massive earthquake."

It seems provential to consider all events in terms of how it impacts our own locality , but it is the way that human nature works. Everything is more intersting in terms of its impact on self , kith and kin.

In this case the earthquake might continue to shake for months and impact them there, and , us here in unforseen ways.

sirs

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2007, 07:24:52 PM »
How is this NOT a political issue??  The political ramifications are ENORMOUS, for not just the Middle East, but globally, as demonstrated in a majority of the posts already presented.  Did I steal your thunder?  Were you salivating at the idea of proposing how Bush was secretly in contact with Musharaff, and likely helped to organize this tragic event??      ::)

You couldn't wait to turn the discussion from the impact, the effects to an opportunity to poke those you don't like or often disagree with in the metaphorical eye.  You're really sick.

No Brass, sick are those who blame Bush for everything, including the common cold, such as Global Warming, Militant Islam, Poverty, Homelessness, Unemployment, etc.  Sick is believing that Bush and the "neocons" were really behind 911.  Sick would be the idea that the government brought down the WTC.  Sick would be pushing the idea of no jet hitting the Pentagon.  Sick would be those who *gasp* claim religion is some delusional affliction, which begs the obvious need for treatment and "saving"

The title of the thread made it clear what my intentions for this topic were to go, which for the vast majority of posts, have provided just that.  It's a tragedy with HUGE political ramifications.  My small follow-up response was simply a placing down a timer as to when one of the whacked out foaming at the mouth leftists would start in that this was some Bush facilitated neo-con hit job.  Everyone has been adding to the debate, while you seem to be the only one dragging it down to gutter level with this tangent.  I hope it's at least making you feel better

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2007, 10:15:52 PM »

When Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated by that little right-wing twat and the people subsequently elected the right wing nutter Benjamin Netanyahu as Prime Minister. I'd count that as one of the most succesful political murders in history.

=====================================
Hmmm. You may be right about that one. But as a rule, assassinations do not benefit the assassin or his group.

Siran Sirhan did not change a thing about US policy toward Palestine when he shot RFK. Cgolzsz did not benefit the anarchists when he plugged McKinley, either.
 neither Southerners nor actors benefited when Booth shot Lincoln.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2007, 11:20:52 PM »
What makes a leader/leader wanna be, stand up in the middle of a crowd where protection is weak and terror is strong? NOt blaming the victim, here. But, my gosh, why??
Why not keep safety first, as we tell our children.
I grieve that fact that a brilliant woman has been murdered today.
Crap.

Michael Tee

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2007, 12:15:57 AM »
<<She appealed against a conviction in the Swiss courts for money-laundering.>>

In the entire flow of verbiage about Benazir Bhutto, this was the only reference I saw that indicates she was ever  convicted.  In a Swiss court.  Of money-laundering.

IMHO, that's not something to be taken lightly.  She's a fucking criminal.  This wasn't some kangaroo court in Teheran or Riyadh or Guantanamo Bay - - she was convicted in a Swiss court. Presumably one which provided a fair trial and all the usual safeguards.  Presumably with access to the best Swiss defence counsel that money could buy.

She appealed against the conviction, fine.  Legitimate so to report.  But the absence of any reported resolution of the appeal - - just leaving it hanging there - - now that's pretty sleazy journalism.  Indicating to me a huge bias in favour of BB on the part of the writer.

I realized today that I knew very little about Benazir Bhutto, and, more importantly, about where her support was coming from.  An educated, liberal, urban elite seemed most likely.  Bourgeois, westernized, secular Muslims who were equally uncomfortable with both military dictatorship and Islamic extremists.  But how does it really break down?  On tribal or clan lines?  Regional lines?  (I'm assuming that on class-war lines, all of her support is middle-class.)

BT produced a very good case for this being an al-Qaeda hit.  A Musharraf-Bhutto alliance could have effectively united and strengthened the pro-Western, anti-fundamentalist posture of the government by sealing over the rift between two of its supporting interests, the militarists and the rule-of-law liberals.  Eliminating BB isolates Musharraf, already marked as the U.S.'s man.  It's a huge shot in the arm to the fundamentalists, who had sustained a serious setback in the massacre at the Red Mosque.  In regards to the "emboldening" of these groups - - I would think "encouragement" or "morale-boosting" would be a better term than emboldening, because they're already bold enough - - it seems obvious to me that this is an enormous morale-booster.  It's a kick in the ass to Musharraf, who was counting on BB to broaden his base of support and a similar kick in the ass to the U.S.A., which had hitched its own wagon to Musharraf's star.  Now it's back to the drawing board for Rice, Bush and the whole unsavoury crew.

My own gut feeling is that it is speeding the day when the same kind of violent end comes to Musharraf, simply because those who plan and organize such events now have some momentum behind them.  They can't help but be pumped and inspired by their latest triumph.  Just as the U.S. can't help but be discouraged and despondent over it.

BTW - - with regard to the issue of assassinations not providing victories for the assassin, those of us who regard the assassination of JFK as a coup on behalf of extreme right-wing elements in the U.S. "intelligence community" or "state security apparatus," the victory was clear - - the abandonment of the Eisenhower administration's alleged commitments to the Bay of Pigs mission was avenged, the feared pull-out from Viet Nam was averted, and - - most importantly - -  the country reverted to its pre-JFK traditions of utter subservience of elected officials to the so-called "secret government" or foreign-policy establishment.  (Yes, domer, I've marginalized myself yet again.)

hnumpah

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2007, 12:20:02 AM »
Quote
Let's count the minutes, before those inflicted with BDS, start to imply that this is Bush's fault


Quote
Everyone has been adding to the debate, while you seem to be the only one dragging it down to gutter level with this tangent.

Gad, you really were right earlier. Mentioning 'genius' in any connection to you, even sarcastically, was really 'way more than you were worth. And you have the unmitigated balls to whine when anyone gets snarky with you. Pathetic.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

sirs

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2007, 02:46:20 AM »
Well, at least H is demonstrating, once again with his painful efforts presently, what he perseveratingly was criticisng me for, way back when.  There was a glimmer of effort not too long ago, that I was greatly appreciative of, but now no civil effort, no civil dialog, not any respectable attempt to facilitate anything other than personal snarks and insults, on top of whatever point he's trying to make.  Way to go, H       :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2007, 03:12:03 AM »
U.S. brokered Bhutto?s return to Pakistan
Secret diplomacy yielded deal seen as only way to save ally against terror
ANALYSIS
By Robin Wright and Glenn Kessler
The Washington Post
updated 12:06 a.m. ET Dec. 28, 2007
For Benazir Bhutto, the decision to return to Pakistan was sealed during a telephone call from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice just a week before Bhutto flew home in October. The call culminated more than a year of secret diplomacy ? and came only when it became clear that the heir to Pakistan's most powerful political dynasty was the only one who could bail out Washington's key ally in the battle against terrorism.

It was a stunning turnaround for Bhutto, a former prime minister who was forced from power in 1996 amid corruption charges. She was suddenly visiting with top State Department officials, dining with U.N. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and conferring with members of the National Security Council. As President Pervez Musharraf's political future began to unravel this year, Bhutto became the only politician who might help keep him in power.

"The U.S. came to understand that Bhutto was not a threat to stability but was instead the only possible way that we could guarantee stability and keep the presidency of Musharraf intact," said Mark Siegel, who lobbied for Bhutto in Washington and witnessed much of the behind-the-scenes diplomacy.

But the diplomacy that ended abruptly with Bhutto's assassination yesterday was always an enormous gamble, according to current and former U.S. policymakers, intelligence officials and outside analysts. By entering into the legendary "Great Game" of South Asia, the United States also made its goals and allies more vulnerable ? in a country where more than 70 percent of the population already looked unfavorably upon Washington.

?U.S. policy is in tatters?
Bhutto's assassination leaves Pakistan's future ? and Musharraf's ? in doubt, some experts said. "U.S. policy is in tatters. The administration was relying on Benazir Bhutto's participation in elections to legitimate Musharraf's continued power as president," said Barnett R. Rubin of New York University. "Now Musharraf is finished."

Bhutto's assassination also demonstrates the growing power and reach of militant anti-government forces in Pakistan, which pose an existential threat to the country, said J. Alexander Thier, a former U.N. official now at the U.S. Institute for Peace. "The dangerous cocktail of forces of instability exist in Pakistan ? Talibanism, sectarianism, ethnic nationalism ? could react in dangerous and unexpected ways if things unravel further," he said.

But others insist the U.S.-orchestrated deal fundamentally altered Pakistani politics in ways that will be difficult to undo, even though Bhutto is gone. "Her return has helped crack open this political situation. It's now very fluid, which makes it uncomfortable and dangerous," said Isobel Coleman of the Council on Foreign Relations. "But the status quo before she returned was also dangerous from a U.S. perspective. Forcing some movement in the long run was in the U.S. interests."

Bhutto's assassination during a campaign stop in Rawalpindi might even work in favor of her Pakistan People's Party, with parliamentary elections due in less than two weeks, Coleman said. "From the U.S. perspective, the PPP is the best ally the U.S. has in terms of an institution in Pakistan."


Bhutto's political comeback was a long time in the works ? and uncertain for much of the past 18 months. In mid-2006, Bhutto and Musharraf started communicating through intermediaries about how they might cooperate. Assistant Secretary of State Richard A. Boucher was often an intermediary, traveling to Islamabad to speak with Musharraf and to Bhutto's homes in London and Dubai to meet with her.

Under U.S. urging, Bhutto and Musharraf met face to face in January and July in Dubai, according to U.S. officials. It was not a warm exchange, with Musharraf resisting a deal to drop corruption charges so she could return to Pakistan. He made no secret of his feelings.

In his 2006 autobiography "In the Line of Fire," Musharraf wrote that Bhutto had "twice been tried, been tested and failed, [and] had to be denied a third chance." She had not allowed her own party to become democratic, he alleged. "Benazir became her party's 'chairperson for life,' in the tradition of the old African dictators!"

A key turning point was Bhutto's three-week U.S. visit in August when she talked again to Boucher and to Khalilzad, an old friend. A former U.S. ambassador in neighboring Afghanistan, Khalilzad had long been skeptical about Musharraf and while in Kabul had disagreed with then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell over whether the Pakistani leader was being helpful in the fight against the Taliban. He also warned that Pakistani intelligence was allowing the Taliban to regroup in the border areas, U.S. officials said.

When Bhutto returned to the United States in September, Khalilzad asked for a lift on her plane from New York to Aspen, where they were both giving speeches. They spent much of the five-hour plane ride strategizing, said sources familiar with the diplomacy.

Friends say Bhutto asked for U.S. help. "She pitched the idea to the Bush administration," said Peter W. Galbraith, a former U.S. ambassador and friend of Bhutto from their college at Harvard. "She had been prime minister twice and had not been able to accomplish very much because she did not have power over the most important institutions in Pakistan ? the ISI [intelligence agency], the military and the nuclear establishment," he said.

"Without controlling those, she couldn't pursue peace with India, go after extremists or transfer funds from the military to social programs," Galbraith said. "Cohabitation with Musharraf made sense because he had control over the three institutions that she never did. This was the one way to accomplish something and create a moderate center."

The turning point to get Musharraf on board was a September trip by Deputy Secretary of State John D. Negroponte to Islamabad. "He basically delivered a message to Musharraf that we would stand by him, but he needed a democratic facade on the government, and we thought Benazir was the right choice for that face," said Bruce Riedel, former CIA and national security council staffer now at the Brookings Institution's Saban Center for Middle East Policy.


"Musharraf still detested her and he came around reluctantly as he began to recognize this fall that his position was untenable," Riedel said. The Pakistani leader had two choices: Bhutto or former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, who Musharraf had overthrown in a 1999 military coup. "Musharraf took what he thought was the lesser of two evils," Riedel said.

Many career foreign policy officials were skeptical of the U.S. plan. "There were many inside the administration, at the State and Defense Departments and in intelligence, who thought this was a bad idea from the beginning because the prospects that the two could work together to run the country effectively were nil," said Riedel.

As part of the deal, Bhutto's party agreed not to protest against Musharraf's reelection in September to his third term. In return, Musharraf agreed to lift the corruption charges against Bhutto. But Bhutto sought one particular guarantee ? that Washington would ensure Musharraf followed through on free and fair elections producing a civilian government.

Rice, who became engaged in the final stages of brokering a deal, called Bhutto in Dubai and pledged that Washington would see the process through, according to Siegel. A week later, on Oct. 18, Bhutto returned.

Ten weeks later, she was dead.

Xenia Dormandy, former National Security Council expert on South Asia now at Harvard University's Belfer Center, said U.S. meddling is not to blame for Bhutto's death. "It is very clear the United States encouraged" an agreement, she said, "but U.S. policy is in no way responsible for what happened. I don't think we could have played it differently."

U.S. policy ? and the commitment to Musharraf ? remains unchanged. In a statement yesterday, Rice appealed to Pakistanis to remain calm and to continue seeking to build a "moderate" democracy.

"I don't think it would do any justice to her memory to have an election postponed or canceled simply as a result of this tragic incident," State Department spokesman Tom Casey told reporters. "The only people that win through such a course of action are the people who perpetrated this attack."

Staff writer Thomas E. Ricks and staff researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.

? 2007 The Washington Post Company

Lanya

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2007, 04:50:12 AM »
About the people who win: have you  heard of disaster capitalism?
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050502/klein
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Plane

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2007, 06:25:17 AM »
About the people who win: have you  heard of disaster capitalism?
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050502/klein


No, I hadn't heard of this , but it sounds like an excellent idea.

This response team should be made ready and Al Quieda should be made aware of it!

Frustrateing their plans to cause chaos and rebuild a Caliphate from ash before they even start.

Reverseing the present sitation in which our opponents benefit from disorder.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2007, 08:00:07 AM »
This response team should be made ready and Al Quieda should be made aware of it!

Frustrateing their plans to cause chaos and rebuild a Caliphate from ash before they even start.

Reverseing the present sitation in which our opponents benefit from disorder.
==================================================================
Al Qaeda has zero chance of building a "Caliphate" anywhere. They are a force of reaction and have little or no popular support anywhere. Afghanistan was their best chance, and they have lost that. If the Taliban gets back in charge, it will be due to monumental US-NATO joint incompetence.

But Al Qaeda does not respond to reason. They are fanatics, just like the Christian Fundies that insist that all Jews will return to Israel, the Third Temple will be rebuilt (that would be on the site of the Dome of the Rock-How likely is THAT?), and then Armageddon will come and Jesus will rule over a peaceful world (after disposing of all those he dislikes).

All the Jews. All is a word that NEVER happens, anywhere, ever.
The chance that all the Jews wil ever return to Israel is the same as all the Irish returning to Eire. Never gonna happen.

And yet, tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people are sure about this. The same is true for the Al Qaeda fanatics. The thing is, such people are not capable of logical thought. This is a "matter of faith", meaning their logic switches are in the OFF position.

The good old days were not so good, but they will never return.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Uh oh....NOT good. Bhutto Assasinated
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2007, 08:20:25 AM »
<<For Benazir Bhutto, the decision to return to Pakistan was sealed during a telephone call from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice just a week before Bhutto flew home in October. The call culminated more than a year of secret diplomacy ? and came only when it became clear that the heir to Pakistan's most powerful political dynasty was the only one who could bail out Washington's key ally in the battle against terrorism.

<<It was a stunning turnaround for Bhutto, a former prime minister who was forced from power in 1996 amid corruption charges. She was suddenly visiting with top State Department officials, dining with U.N. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and conferring with members of the National Security Council. As President Pervez Musharraf's political future began to unravel this year, Bhutto became the only politician who might help keep him in power.

<<"The U.S. came to understand that Bhutto was not a threat to stability but was instead the only possible way that we could guarantee stability and keep the presidency of Musharraf intact," said Mark Siegel, who lobbied for Bhutto in Washington and witnessed much of the behind-the-scenes diplomacy.>>

THERE ya go.

Excellent article, Henny.  Once again (anyone remember Ahmed Chalabi?  anyone?  anyone?) the U.S. bets its wad on a crooked politician to foist a puppet government on a country it needs in its war for oil (a.k.a. the war on "terrorism") but the bet doesn't turn out all that well.  In this case, failing even more spectacularly than the Chalabi bet.

The pieces of the puzzle are starting to fit together very quickly.  Yesterday, I was kinda mystified by the whole thing.  Given the amount of backing she had been receiving from the Bush admin and the MSM, I had begun to smell a rat, but it was more along the lines of "the pragmatists in the U.S. ruling class are winning over the ideologues in the Bush administration."

I always liked Benazir Bhutto.  She was a very attractive, courageous (within reasonable limits) woman, fighting for a place in a very dangerous man's world, articulate ind intelligent.  What's not to like?  Whenever she was ousted for "corruption," the details of the charges against her were almost never mentioned, and the fact that the charges emanated from, or worked to the direct benefit of, a miltary regime, played directly into all my deepest ingrown prejudices - - military dictatorship BAD, attractive, smart, courageous woman GOOD, and I think the matter was always very cleverly presented in the Western press so that nobody (except the Pakistanis I knew at the time) took the corruption charges as anything very serious, for those same reasons. 

I'm still not convinced on the corruption thing - - if the Pakistani governments of the day had a solid case, how come they never managed to prove it in a Pakistani court of law?  OTOH, we all know how hard it is to prove corruption cases in court - - the Pakistani courts operate more or less on the same principles as our own, including the presumption of innocence and the prosecutor's burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt - - and the family undoubtedly enjoyed widespread popularity.  Also, Pakistan being an extremely violent country, who's to say how many potential government witnesses have fallen victim to the "random" violence there without inciting the interest of the Western MSM?  But the conviction in a Swiss court (for money laundering) puts the whole corruption thing in a new light.  As do the American MSM's heroic  efforts to keep this interesting little factoid (the conviction) out of the limelight.

All things considered, I'd say that al Qaeda (or like-minded groups of fundamentalist nutjobs) are the likeliest suspects to date, with or without the compliance (turning heads the other way) of the current military government.  But here's another possibility to consider - - WHAT IF Benazir Bhutto were in fact the incorruptible, selfless, dedicated leader of the people that her MSM image portrays?  What if, in recent days, she had made it clear to her American backers that she was nobody's puppet, that she was going to act in the best interests of Pakistanis and the Muslim world generally as SHE perceived them to be, and not as Cheney, Bush, Rice and the rest of that nefarious crew claimed them to be?  At some point, might not the realization have dawned upon them that their new "asset" was no asset at all, rather a roadblock in their quest for dominance in the region, an "asset" whose time for liquidation had finally arrived?