Author Topic: New Poll  (Read 12425 times)

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BT

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2007, 10:35:35 PM »
I'll keep your reply in mind next time you spout off about peace.

How different is your justification for generational revenge than the Israeli's desire for a safe secure homeland, no matter the price.


Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2007, 10:45:39 PM »
<<I'll keep your reply in mind next time you spout off about peace.>>

I hope you do.  You'll notice when I "spout off" about peace, it's to condemn those conducting gratuitous wars of aggression against people who have given them no cause for the aggression.  I never confuse "peace" with giving war criminals and their descendants a free pass.  I never confuse "peace" with surrendering to fascism, racism and militarism.

<<How different is your justification for generational revenge than the Israeli's desire for a safe secure homeland, no matter the price.>>

When the "safe, secure homeland" is already occupied by millions of innocent Arabs, the Israeli desire for "peace" in the West Bank is pretty much the same as the Nazi desire for "peace" in Occupied Europe.

BT

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2007, 10:50:00 PM »
Quote
When the "safe, secure homeland" is already occupied by millions of innocent Arabs, the Israeli desire for "peace" in the West Bank is pretty much the same as the Nazi desire for "peace" in Occupied Europe.

Perhaps the Palestinian forebearers offended the Israeli's in some way, back in the day. Which makes their actions OK in your book, if your model is consistent.

 

Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2007, 11:02:57 PM »
<<Perhaps the Palestinian forebearers offended the Israeli's in some way, back in the day. Which makes their actions OK in your book, if your model is consistent.>>

No, perhaps you have the Palestinians confused with the Germans or the Eastern Europeans.  Their forebearers really DID offend the Jews back in the day and accordingly some payback might be in order for them.   The Palestinians, despite the odd massacre here and there, were relatively inoffensive.   Even the massacres were in response to a land grab, made all the worse by Arab memories of broken promises made by the British.  And I have to say in the case of the Germans, they have been remarkably straightforward in acknowledging their crimes, making amends as best they can and guarding vigilantly against the return of Nazi ideology.  They might be one of the rare cases where payback could be gratuitous and unjustified.  They certainly rejected Nazi ideology and violence in a way that the Croatians never have and never will.

BT

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2007, 11:18:52 PM »
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The Palestinians, despite the odd massacre here and there, were relatively inoffensive.

Subjective at best. Sounds like you are on the outside looking in.

 Besides blood grudges are ok in your book. Who says the offense has to be real or fit nicely on a scale.




Amianthus

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2007, 11:50:09 PM »
Austrian voting patterns on the Anschluss would prove very little, since the pre-Anschluss Austrian government was also fascist and anti-Semitic.

Funny how, at the time, you brought up the vote for Anschluss as part of your "proof" that Austrians were all Nazi sympathizers. Now, all of a sudden, it proves very little. Funny how that works, huh?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2008, 12:00:45 AM »
 <<Besides blood grudges are ok in your book. Who says the offense has to be real or fit nicely on a scale.>>

Blood grudges?  What the hell are you talking about?  In Serbia it was about avenging crimes of mass extermination.  No way do those crimes match up to the small-scale massacre in Hebron in 1929, which you could more or less expect in any war for land.  The massacre of Jews and Serbs was a purely gratuitous act of racial hatred.

BT

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2008, 12:10:15 AM »
So blood grudges are ok if they attain a certain level of causalities?

Would Armenians be justified in blowing up random Turks?

Cherokees shooting random Scots-Irish?

Irish and Scots against the English?

Year round hunting of whites by blacks?

Just curious how this works.



Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2008, 12:21:34 AM »
<<Funny how, at the time, you brought up the vote for Anschluss as part of your "proof" that Austrians were all Nazi sympathizers. Now, all of a sudden, it proves very little. Funny how that works, huh?>>

Well it might seem funny to somebody who's incapable of admitting to a mistake, but the way it works is actually pretty humdrum.  I was under the mistaken impression that the Austrians voted overwhelmingly to approve the Anschluss.  That would prove overwhelming Austrian support for the Nazi Party.

Well, apparently (according to you) I was wrong.  There were a lot of anti-Anschluss votes, or so you say.  Well, when I wasn't aware of a large anti-Anschluss vote, all I needed to analyze was the pro-Anschluss vote.  It's pretty clear that a pro-Anschluss vote would be an endorsement of the Nazi Party.  It wouldn't matter whether the existing Austrian government were fascist or not - - if they were fascist, the vote would be an endorsement of fascism and antisemitism and if they weren't fascist, the vote would be an endorsement of fascism and antisemitism.

When you brought to my attention the anti-Anschluss vote, it also had to be analyzed.  Anti-Anschluss could be either anti-Nazi or pro-status quo.  If the status quo was already fascist and anti-Semitic (and it was) then one looks for differences between the status quo and the Anschluss  - - and quickly finds one striking difference, the difference between Austrian nationalism and German nationalism.  Now we have an anti-Anschluss vote which can be explained as either motivated by anti-Naziism (unlikely, since the Nazi Party principles were pretty much the same as the Dolfuss government and its successor's principles) or by Austrian nationalism.  On the other hand, a pro-Anschluss vote is pretty much unequivocal.

And of course the reason that I never considered the large anti-Anschluss vote in the first place was simply that I wasn't aware of it.  And since I'm not one who's afraid to admit his mistakes, I turned my attention to it as soon as I discovered my error.

So you see that what seems "funny" to the irrational mind is actually not so funny to the logical mind.

I also want to remind you of this:  there are many, many reasons why I believe the Austrians in general are just a bunch of unregenerate fucking Nazis.  The Anschluss vote is just one of many reasons.  You have an understandable reluctance to come to the obvious conclusions that I have regarding Austria, and so - - the truth being so hard to avoid - - you have a kind of desperate tendency to grasp at straws.  For example: if you can just prove me wrong on the Anschluss vote argument, my whole theory collapses.  It doesn't work that way - - my view of the Austrians was not determined merely by an analysis of the Anschluss vote; Anschluss voting was just one more brick in the wall.  Proving that my take on that one brick was wrong doesn't mean the wall falls down; on the contrary because the wall is built of many bricks, it stays up (because it's in fact the reality of the situation) and because it's the truth that Austria is a Nazi nation, the vote can be explained in a way that is consistent with that reality, not with your fantasy of an anti-Nazi Austria.

Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2008, 12:35:36 AM »
<<So blood grudges are ok if they attain a certain level of causalities?>>
I guess it depends on justification for the original provocation, length of time elapsed, degree of remorse and repentance shown, lots of thing

<<Would Armenians be justified in blowing up random Turks?>>
I dunno.

<<Cherokees shooting random Scots-Irish?>>
I dunno.  Sounds like a kind of suicidal venture because they're outnumbered and outgunned, also because the Scots-Irish of today aren't as genocidal as their ancestors were and a lot of them seem to be ashamed of their ancestors' actions.  But basically it's wrong because it wouldn't accomplish anything, and the Scots-Irish haven't been the aggressors against the Indians for a long time.

<<Irish and Scots against the English?>>
Nope.  Fuck 'em.  The English did them a favour.

<<Year round hunting of whites by blacks?>>
No, cause the whites never hunted the blacks year-round.  The lynchings all told only took about 8,000 victims over a period
of 100 years.  How the hell would that equate to year-round hunting?

<<Just curious how this works.>>

Wait till you or your people become victims of a huge racist massacre on a scale approaching that of the Holocaust, of which you apparently know little to nothing.  The comparisons you are making are absurd.  They would actually be offensive if I weren't factoring in an ignorance allowance.  When something like that hits you or people you actually give a shit about, you won't have to be "curious" any more.  You'll just know.

Amianthus

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2008, 12:40:55 AM »
I also want to remind you of this:  there are many, many reasons why I believe the Austrians in general are just a bunch of unregenerate fucking Nazis.

Your latent racism would be another way to explain it, as well.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2008, 12:48:49 AM »
not with your fantasy of an anti-Nazi Austria.

I guess it's just part of my fantasy that Austria outlawed Nazism in 1933.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 12:50:52 AM by Amianthus »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2008, 12:50:06 AM »
Are you saying Jews own victimhood?

And did you know my sister is Jewish ?

And there is Jewish blood on my fathers mothers side. Shalom Bro



Michael Tee

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2008, 12:55:53 AM »
<<Your latent racism would be another way to explain it, as well.>>

No, that would be your way of dodging an unpalatable truth by imputing it to "racism."


<<I guess it's just part of my fantasy that Austria outlawed Nazism in 1933.>>

No, your fantasy is in attributing that to a philosophical disagreement with Nazi racism and anti-Semitism, rather than to a struggle between two competing forms of anti-Semitic and racist nationalism.

Amianthus

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Re: New Poll
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2008, 01:08:11 AM »
unlikely, since the Nazi Party principles were pretty much the same as the Dolfuss government

You do realize that the Dolfuss government outlawed discrimination against Jews in housing and jobs in an effort to stem the tide of anti-semitism among the Catholics of the time? Is that where they were like the Nazi Party?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)