Author Topic: question about hillary  (Read 13806 times)

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The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2008, 11:07:26 AM »
"All I can say is - damn good post"

yeah lets jail political enemies because we think they are "assholes".....how fascist of you to agree JS.
 
pathetic!



Yet you only mentioned one of his points, CU4. ??? What about the rest? Can you respond without venom?
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The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2008, 11:10:18 AM »
Should Cheney go to jail if he did indeed break the law?


Of course, why should he be exempt, if he is guilty of breaking the law? But, the larger issue is why there should be a need to go into all this "impeachment" discussion once a new Administation is voted in. Perhaps a more congenial Gerald Ford approach might be more approriate for the nation, even if some feel there is a "need" to pursue such an action?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 03:27:38 PM by The_Professor »
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2008, 03:26:14 PM »
I want a government that encourages children to learn, to be intellectually curious and to have questioning minds. More government-funded TV and radio stations could do this at a minimal cost, and DVD's and such could be distributed to those who pay a minimal fee and show promise in learning beyond the curriculum


Plane,

It's statements like this one that make me want more.

Xavier knows what my world is all about....just in that statement, alone.


All right,...

... but every coin has a tail.

Should it be the government that takes that role in every child's life?

The government is self serving , it is prone to put its own needs into the roots of the education it provides.

The government needs citizens that it can depend on to perpetuate the government .

When this is not a good fit for the kid , the government is not prone to be accommodating to the non standard need.




http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pink+floyd/another+brick+in+the+wall+part+ii_20108776.html


I prefer vouchers, which would not necessaryily replacepublic schools , but would certainly produce competition and variety of choice.

Potentially , a competition for teaching talent too.




"A True Teaching Talent" actually takes years to develop, imo. I am not saying that a new teacher lacks talent, but there is an "art" to teaching that is not taught at the University level. Good teaching is often times a result of the number of years on the job.

Xavier is right on one point.....private schools do not put up with bad behaviors!
It's so much easier to teach a child if the parents are the stake holders. The parents are more than likely educated and willing to do anything to support the child. They end up paying for their child's education in more ways than one. ok,...Not to say that most public school parents are not involved in every aspect of their child's education. But the private sector affords a great luxuary from the get go. From the administration on down to the janitor.
 
The private schools here in our city pre-assess incoming candidates, and if the child's tests fall short of the academy's standards, that child is not even accepted into the school. Period.

Who gets the kid....?
The Public Schools.

The public school teacher does h/her damndest to teach on average 27 students in one classroom, students who are at vastly different academic levels, no assistant, no parent support, (a PTO with about 10 members strong), little money to help support the classroom to attain decent materials...etc etc etc.
Does this mean that the teacher should be judeged for lack of "talent"? I think not.
Competition among educators is a horrible idea. My goodness, we pay HUGE BUCKS to actors and athletes for THAT sort of thing....(competition).
I wish there were a beer company who could fund ads for schools.....leave no drunk behind, indeed.

Public school teachers because of the NCLB act, have had to bust their behinds to make sure ALL kids read at grade level by a particular date, and that includes special education students. So, talent be damned! If  one child can't read at grade level, and *our* school, albeit our school is one of the last schools to be put on that list, then we are put on probation for three years. We didn't make AYP by ONE KID by the way....no joke!

We must show even MORE GROWTH than the previous year, in order to dig out from the punitive pit. That's crazy!

Ok, OTOH, sure.....
There are some positive elements to the changes in the "Reading First" schools under the umbrella of NCLB.
The schools have adopted more research based curriculum content across the board. ....Math and Reading in particular. Math is a subject closer to my heart. I love the constructivist approach, but it is hard to sell.

 But to ask that every student read at the same level by a particular year is crazy....Is it a plan to slowly get rid of the public sector?   Why else would the NCLB mandate such highly impossible expectations? Rep. want vouchers. Why? Not just for a chance to teach creationism. Education is being run like a business. Ok...then manage it like one.

Our district is looking at getting rid of bi-lingual education, social studies, and science just to make the AYP(ADEQUATE YEARLY PROGRESS) grade!!!
 More children have been left behind than ever. Qualified teachers who are also veteran teachers are leaving right and left. If they do away with such "talented" individuals, as Florida is apparently doing, then shame on them.

As for voucers and rewarding "talent"....
There are too many factors involved in teaching for the so called "healthy competition" idea to fly. It only sets up dissension among the troops....teachers would then be forced to do anything to save their position...and that slippery slope is not conducive to a healthy classroom setting. Teaching to the test!? Yeh, right!

Even Texan teachers have  been called on the carpet for that one! IRonically...Bush's Texas.

Teachers assess and assess again, with no time to teach.....we do away with quality programs (art and music slipped away about 10 years ago) but good bye to Bi-Lingual, Social Studies, and now Science. We have had to hide these critical subject areas under the carpet for the sake of "ratings"......scores".....

where's the value?? Where's the quality? Most of us don't bitch about the pay, but hell.....then where's the pay!
It's a bloody shame.

The public has little knowledge of such details of the NCLB, but they're the first to say the school system is falling apart. We are to BLAME.... Frankly, if the next president doesn't do something about the NCLB act to change the many dysfunctional critical conditions therein, I will have to say be aware Q-public, be very aware..... as those children will someday raise OUR OLD AGE VILLAGE.

Extention of the school day is what we need now....we don't have the time to teach it all!

State Mandates:120 minutes of reading
90 minutes of math, 60 minutes of language arts/writing.
2 PE'S a week, a library hour a week, and like XO says....Cultural language fluff that pretends to be Spanish!
Adios to quality.

 Criminal.








Plane

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2008, 06:13:54 PM »


The schools that would get the vouchers will not allow teacher unions, will have far lower standards, because they will pay their teachers a whole lot less. I sent my daughter to a Cuban private school from grades one through three so she would learn Spanish better as well as English, and she did, but she also never learned math because the teachers the private school hired did not know enough about match to teach it. Public schools can be very low in quality, because they have to take every kid, even the goof-offs that disrupt the class all the time, who won't be expelled from public schools because they can't be, but will be thrown out of private schools when the parents of the other kids in the class get together and threaten to pull their kids out.


I will just bet that no one told you you needed to send your Daughter to that priviate school before you thought of the idea yourself.

If the Public school could not depend on students showing up because Parents were exploiting more attractive schools with their vouchers , this would be a motive for public schools to improve their standards and be better competition so that they would get their fair share of the voucher dollar.

This stikes m as a great way to raise standards across the board and give the teaches union some serious clout.

I an even imagine schools in competiton braggin to the public about the quality of teachers they employ, giveing the bonafides and experience and awards records of their teachers in language and math .

What would vouchers ever do to lower any schools quality?

Parents that liked what they have now would simply stay with the default choice untill suficiently appealing came to disturb their inertia.

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2008, 07:13:52 PM »
Plane,

I think we need to start charging parents for not raising their children with respect.

So many parents want a free ride. Education begins when they drop their kid off at the door, and ends when the kids walks out the building.

Those parents who are willing to change schools, spend money to attend a private institution (or use a voucher ) are also the same parents who give a damn about their child's education. overall.

Maybe.

There is no grass greener on the other side as a standard solution to the problem.
Families must pull weight.

I would like to see them fined for not reading nightly to their child...how's that for radical?  Sarcasm alert.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2008, 07:34:03 PM »
I didn't ask for any damned voucher to send my daughter to the school. She was there from age four on, because my wife and I both worked days, and they had a good daycare when she was younger.

I suppose her Spanish has been more of an asset to her than her math skills. She can do all the basic math, but she needs a calculator: she can't do it in her head.

It seemed more logical to me to buy a house we could afford in a very convenient location, even though the local public schools were said to suck, because best public schools were in areas where the house payments were more than double and you had to drive 10  minutes to buy anything. To me, a house is a place to live: for investments, I prefer mutual funds, which do not require commissions and ideal circumstances to sell.

Here's what I see happening if they give out vouchers all over the place: the public schools already have to pay the same amount for maintainance, and utilities, so their expenditure per student will drop. The private schools that get the vouchers will be in improvised facilities (all the charter schools in Miami-Dade County were in places really not adequate for a school), and the teachers will be paid only about 2/3rds of what public schoolteachers make. This means that there will be any more moonlighting teachers, because the public schoolteachers have trouble paying the rent already.

Voucher schools will do what usually happens when you have strong bosses and powerless employees: high teacher turnover, most of the voucher money going to administrators. and an even punier share going to the teachers.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2008, 08:19:32 PM »
"Voucher schools will do what usually happens when you have strong bosses and powerless employees: high teacher turnover, most of the voucher money going to administrators. and an even punier share going to the teachers."


And teachers make DIBELY squat (DIBELS an inside teacher yoke)...as it is.

Strong bosses?...how about Peter Principals? That's what we have. Beaten down, manipulated teachers, and if you are a strong teacher you are usually in the back pocket of the administration anyway.



The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2008, 08:26:17 PM »
I agree that teachers do not make much money, HOWEVER, to be frank, what they make is determined by SUPPLY AND DEMAND, namely there are enoguh people, primarily women, that will work that job for that pay. If there weren't, the pay would be higher.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 09:08:41 PM by The_Professor »
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2008, 09:01:01 PM »
"That Job"...is also Your Job, Prof. as it is XO's job in a sense. It's all about Education. 

 MOst of us teach, instruct, facilitate because we love children.

I grew up in a generation where the job opportunities were.... a "stewardess"..(the glamour job of the time) nurse, or teacher...if you weren't going to be a mother! I was a musician in college. I switched from Music teaching to Early Childhood Ed. Loved it. Taught kinder for years....Piaget was my man! ha!
I had choices. But they were few. This is true. If I could do it all over again, I would make wiser choices...but within the education field. I would love to learn more, read more, and be able to be  when I grow up....a History teacher in a High School or University, but it's too late for me.

Women still do not get the respect they deserve in general no matter what job they hold.

For certain, there are not enough people who want to teach these days- male or female!

Interestingly, I don't think it's all about money, alone.

It's about the talk of the town and the media.  The spread of "disrespect for teachers" has trumped the low pay.

I've reaped the benefits of a significant raise this year. Perhaps that is the good news from the NCLB act.
Depending on the STate, teachers now have a better opportunity to make more money in the job --at all levels, but they must first write a comprehensive Dossier + have so many years of experience, get a MA degree and teach at least 7 years in order to make 30 grand a year.

Perhaps NCLB is behind all of that in a way. Good for it!

It's difficult to teach 24 students with the system as it is. Perhaps things will change when the dysfunction of NCLB has gone to rehab.



Who wants to teach?
I did, and I do, still. 
I have lived without many luxuaries in NM. I have not complained.



When are we going to hear about the fabulous teachers who are out there now? There are a hell of a lot of them.

  Rafe Esquith the author of __Teach Like Your Hair's on Fire: The Methods and Madness Inside Room 56__
 is one of those teachers.

The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2008, 09:16:17 PM »
"That Job"...is also Your Job, Prof. as it is XO's job in a sense. It's all about Education. 

 MOst of us teach, instruct, facilitate because we love children.

I grew up in a generation where the job opportunities were.... a "stewardess"..(the glamour job of the time) nurse, or teacher...if you weren't going to be a mother! I was a musician in college. I switched from Music teaching to Early Childhood Ed. Loved it. Taught kinder for years....Piaget was my man! ha!
I had choices. But they were few. This is true. If I could do it all over again, I would make wiser choices...but within the education field. I would love to learn more, read more, and be able to be  when I grow up....a History teacher in a High School or University, but it's too late for me.

Women still do not get the respect they deserve in general no matter what job they hold.

For certain, there are not enough people who want to teach these days- male or female!

Interestingly, I don't think it's all about money, alone.

It's about the talk of the town and the media.  The spread of "disrespect for teachers" has trumped the low pay.

I've reaped the benefits of a significant raise this year. Perhaps that is the good news from the NCLB act.
Depending on the STate, teachers now have a better opportunity to make more money in the job --at all levels, but they must first write a comprehensive Dossier + have so many years of experience, get a MA degree and teach at least 7 years in order to make 30 grand a year.

Perhaps NCLB is behind all of that in a way. Good for it!

It's difficult to teach 24 students with the system as it is. Perhaps things will change when the dysfunction of NCLB has gone to rehab.



Who wants to teach?
I did, and I do, still. 
I have lived without many luxuaries in NM. I have not complained.



When are we going to hear about the fabulous teachers who are out there now? There are a hell of a lot of them.

  Rafe Esquith the author of __Teach Like Your Hair's on Fire: The Methods and Madness Inside Room 56__
 is one of those teachers.

Well, I admire teachers, for many of the reasons you mention. However, regardless of that, it still is accurate that you and I are paid what we are due to the Law of Supply and Demand and this generally applies acorss the board unless you have organizations such as strong unions in-between.

A way the teachers here in Georgia get higher salaries is by going back to school. They are paid more for a Master's, a ED.D, ED.S, or Ph.D. Have you pursued this route? Wouldn't the school system pay you to do this like they do here in Ga?
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2008, 11:16:20 PM »
Yes, I have a Master's Degree in E.C.Ed. 32 years of experience teaching, and an ESL endorsement.

I live in New Mexico. We're a poor State, pure and simple. We rank very low in many areas when it comes to education.

I don't mean to really complain that much. It may sound like I NEED more MONEY, but what I do "need" is to see that education is put on a higher pedestal overall. Yes, you are at a higher level than I, Professor.  Your pay should be more substantial. True.

Thanks for your concern, though.

Cindy
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 11:18:02 PM by Cynthia »

Plane

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2008, 11:55:05 PM »
"Competition among educators is a horrible idea."


How could you get this so backwards?


There should be competition , over you!

The monopoly benefits the monopoly holder and this isn't you right now , there is only one employer for teachers that can hire more than a few.


The public schools should have to offer you mor than you are worth to their competetors.Elese you go where you are more appreaciated.

The absense of competrition causes a lot of the probles we presently see with education.

The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2008, 11:28:44 AM »
Yes, I have a Master's Degree in E.C.Ed. 32 years of experience teaching, and an ESL endorsement.

I live in New Mexico. We're a poor State, pure and simple. We rank very low in many areas when it comes to education.

I don't mean to really complain that much. It may sound like I NEED more MONEY, but what I do "need" is to see that education is put on a higher pedestal overall. Yes, you are at a higher level than I, Professor.  Your pay should be more substantial. True.

Thanks for your concern, though.

Cindy

Pay at my public insititution is determined, upon entry, by several factors such as the market when you enter, yuor degrees and publications, you field and how well you interview. After that, it is all the typical state employee raises.

Your field matters a lot. We pay beginning Assistant Professors, tenure-track, around $35K in the Social Sciences and Humanities and $50-60K in Business or IT. It is because of supply and demand. Ph.Ds in History and English, are, quite frankly, a dime a dozen. If you get promoted to Associate Professor, as I am now, you get a whopping $1000 raise! lol
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 11:03:05 AM by The_Professor »
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Cynthia

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2008, 09:58:10 PM »
Your field matters a lot.

My field, Early Childhood Education, matters so much that people really don't realize how much.

A graduate professor of mine back in the late 80's, told us that if this society doesn't take notice of how we approach the issue of  Day Care, our children will not only suffer....so will we all.  At the time, working mothers were the "sign of the times" and businesses were offering QUALITY Day Care for working moms here and there.....

But, have we paid attention to such issues? I am not in the business world, and I can't answer that as a working mother, but we must teach and provide so much to our young children..no matter the generation, political situation, etc.

I would love to be part of a study on this question.

The Day Care teacher is paid minimum wage, and has little or no E.C.Education.

Babysitting is NOT proper DAY CARE. Day Care as it is in many facilities still does not meet quality standards.

It takes a lot of money to educate our society. We need it now, more than ever.


The_Professor

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Re: question about hillary
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2008, 11:04:11 AM »
I totally comcur, but how might this be accompished? A culture-wide phenomenon might have to happen, eh?

Except is has got to be about more than just money...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 05:08:29 PM by The_Professor »
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D