Author Topic: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection  (Read 4596 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2008, 03:42:14 AM »
You like to pretend that the tape is all I've got.  I'm already proven right by all the other facts available.  The tape is not gonna be an admonishment to forgo racism and treat the blacks as their equal - - THAT'S not what made it "extremely well received."

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2008, 12:13:59 PM »
The issue isn't really whether Huckabee is a racist, it's whether he is willing to climb into bed with racists for political advantage.

I was greatly discouraged by his saying that he wanted to change the Constitution to better reflect "Godly Principles" or 'Christian Principles'. I cannot imagine what changes these might be, but I am pretty sure that this would be a divisive move and a really bad idea.

The Republic of Ecuador legislature in the 1800's voted to "Consecrate the Republic to the Sacred Heart of Jesus". I am not sure exactly what this meant to the average cholo on the street, though.

I don't think electing preachers is all that good an idea. The Mexican Constitution of 1917 prohibits nuns, monks and priests from appearing in canonical garb in public. This made sense, as frequently the local priests would grab up the banner of Nuestra Se?ora de Guadalupe and go marching off to resist the government taking over the Church's extensive holdings in haciendas.

They don't seem to arrest priests for appearing in public anymore, as the PAN (Partido de Acci?n Nacional, Vicente Fox' party) is basically a conservative Christian Democratic Party, and as such is allied with the church. When I lived in Mexico, at any wedding of consequence, you would always see a line of men in suits standing at the door of the Church with their arms folded. They were PRI (Partido Revolucionario Institutional) electees and appointees who would not enter a church during their tenure. Their wives and sons and daughters, of course, did.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2008, 05:35:05 PM »
You know, I was thinking about the PRI over the last few days.  The days of an anti-clerical, truly revolutionary party were very well portrayed in the Graham Green novel, The Power and the Glory.

I remember seeing photos in a book of huge anti-Nazi street rallies in Mexico City during the late 1930s.  They were real socialists, real anti-fascists - - when and where did they go wrong?  Where did they lose their way?  I figure that the U.S.A. was somehow behind it all, but I don't really know how they did it.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2008, 09:36:44 PM »
They were real socialists, real anti-fascists - - when and where did they go wrong?  Where did they lose their way? 

When and where did they go wrong?  Where did they lose their way? 

When they became  real socialists, that is when they  lost their way! 

It is merely a dead end road you don't stop at the wall on the end of a dead end road because you are confused , but because there is no further to go.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2008, 09:54:50 PM »
They had a lot further to go - - they could have nationalized the banks and all the means of production, not just the oil industry.  They could have confiscated the possessions of the rich and executed the ruling class.  They could have established the dictatorship of the proletariat.  They could have created a People's Army and a People's Militia to defend themselves against the U.S.A.  You say they reached the end of the road and hit a brick wall, but there were still miles to go on that road and nobody knows WHAT could have been at the end of it, brick wall or Workers' and Peasants' Paradise.  I don't think either of us knows how the experiment would have turned out.  It worked in China, Cuba and the U.S.S.R. till the Russians themselves fouled their own nest.  Other countries went much further along the socialist path, but Mexico, despite very promising beginnings, seems to have turned back early.  And my question was, simply, Why?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2008, 10:03:44 PM »
They had a lot further to go - - they could have nationalized the banks and all the means of production, not just the oil industry.  They could have confiscated the possessions of the rich and executed the ruling class.  They could have established the dictatorship of the proletariat.  They could have created a People's Army and a People's Militia to defend themselves against the U.S.A.  You say they reached the end of the road and hit a brick wall, but there were still miles to go on that road and nobody knows WHAT could have been at the end of it, brick wall or Workers' and Peasants' Paradise.  I don't think either of us knows how the experiment would have turned out.  It worked in China, Cuba and the U.S.S.R. till the Russians themselves fouled their own nest.  Other countries went much further along the socialist path, but Mexico, despite very promising beginnings, seems to have turned back early.  And my question was, simply, Why?


You keep answering your own question without realizing it.

Each of the things you mention are things that prevent entrepreneurship.
Each of the things you mention are things that reduce individual freedom.
Each of the nations you mention mae it "work" to their detriment, and each one had to turn back at some point in order to survive.

Scandinavia keeps getting mention as successfull in socialism , where their mild form of socilaism doesn't quash their economies to the point of collapse . But i countrie like those you mention and also in Mexico there is enough socialism to cause misery and more won't be better.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2008, 10:21:28 PM »
I think you're deluding yourself by rubber-stamping every socialist initiative as a failure without really examining the situation.  If it blocks entrepreneurship, it's a failure.  By definition.  If it restricts "personal freedom," it's a failure.  Also by definition.

The astonishing sucesses of the People's Revolution in such places as China and Cuba don't fit into your theory, so they are set aside.  Or in the case of Cuba, you just call the whole thing a failure, point to the economic refugees as proof of failure (ignoring the much heavier streams of refugees from capitalist Mexico) and give no credit at all to the astounding achievements of the Revolution in such areas as housing, health care and education.

How do you account for the fact that during the 1930s, the U.S.S.R.'s annual rate of growth was double-digit, surpassing that of any other industrialized country?

Communism has some serious problems that come with the territory, I'd never deny that, but it's hardly the guaranteed dead end that you seem to think it is.  You give no weight to the ongoing efforts of the Western Powers to sabotage the U.S.S.R. at every opportunity.  You give no weight to the Nazi invasion and its effects on the U.S.S.R. nor to the role of England, France and the U.S.A. in supporting Germany prior to the war (for example, their key action in freezing the gold reserves of the Spanish Republic, permitting the eventual fascist victory, rather than supporting the Republicans so they could bleed the invading fascist forces of both Germany and Italy?)  Everything they did was geared to building German strength to the point where it could engage the U.S.S.R.  A lot of extraneous factors contributed to the fall of communism in Russia, but you like to pretend it all fell of its own weight as the West just watched it happen. 

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2008, 10:59:16 PM »
I think you're deluding yourself by rubber-stamping every socialist initiative as a failure without really examining the situation.  If it blocks entrepreneurship, it's a failure.  By definition.  If it restricts "personal freedom," it's a failure.  Also by definition.

The astonishing sucesses of the People's Revolution in such places as China and Cuba don't fit into your theory, so they are set aside.  Or in the case of Cuba, you just call the whole thing a failure, point to the economic refugees as proof of failure (ignoring the much heavier streams of refugees from capitalist Mexico) and give no credit at all to the astounding achievements of the Revolution in such areas as housing, health care and education.

How do you account for the fact that during the 1930s, the U.S.S.R.'s annual rate of growth was double-digit, surpassing that of any other industrialized country?

Communism has some serious problems that come with the territory, I'd never deny that, but it's hardly the guaranteed dead end that you seem to think it is.  You give no weight to the ongoing efforts of the Western Powers to sabotage the U.S.S.R. at every opportunity.  You give no weight to the Nazi invasion and its effects on the U.S.S.R. nor to the role of England, France and the U.S.A. in supporting Germany prior to the war (for example, their key action in freezing the gold reserves of the Spanish Republic, permitting the eventual fascist victory, rather than supporting the Republicans so they could bleed the invading fascist forces of both Germany and Italy?)  Everything they did was geared to building German strength to the point where it could engage the U.S.S.R.  A lot of extraneous factors contributed to the fall of communism in Russia, but you like to pretend it all fell of its own weight as the West just watched it happen. 

  "If it blocks entrepreneurship, it's a failure.  By definition.  If it restricts "personal freedom," it's a failure.  Also by definition."
Yes ! Well said.

The Success of Cuba is laughable , the success of socailism in China is tragic.

IN 59 Castro was so nearly the King of Cuba that he could volenteer the death of every Cuban in Cuba for the sake of an effective attack on the USA , this kind of succes is not good for a people to acheive.

China,between 59 and 63 they were claiming success ,while they were actually in famine, how bad was this famine we may never know because the cheif historical success of socailism is in covering up truth.




Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2008, 11:36:09 PM »
You know, I was thinking about the PRI over the last few days.  The days of an anti-clerical, truly revolutionary party were very well portrayed in the Graham Green novel, The Power and the Glory.

I remember seeing photos in a book of huge anti-Nazi street rallies in Mexico City during the late 1930s.  They were real socialists, real anti-fascists - - when and where did they go wrong?  Where did they lose their way?  I figure that the U.S.A. was somehow behind it all, but I don't really know how they did it.
========================================================================================
This was the period of the term of Lazaro Cardenas, 1934-1940. When Cardenas nationalized the oil industry, many US interests wanted an invasion of Mexico. FDR sent a team of diplomats down and they agreed to allow the nationalization, because the US had a need for the oil and a war with Mexico would have been a disaster, as the 1846-1849 war had been.

The enemies of the PRI were financed by US oil interests and the RC Church. One important leader was a writer named Salvador Borrego, whose books preached the alliance of the Communists, the Masons and the Jews to overthrow the Holy Mother Church. They built a huge statue of Jesus in Michoacan on a mountain called El Cubilete, the Cristo de la Monta?a, and had groups of guerrillas called the Cristeros, who raged through small towns in the states of Jalisco and Michoacan, burning government schoolhouses and ejidos (colective village farms). When WWII came, their funds dried up.

Jose Vasconcelos, the author of a book called La raza cosmica (the cosmic race) ran for president in opposition to Cardenas and was basically run out of the country. His theory was that the Mexican mestizo (mixed European, Indian and perhaps African) was through the advantage of diversity a forerunner of the actual master race.

In 1941, the pro American Padilla was defeated as a candidate of the revolutionary party by Miguel Aleman, who was slightly more pro American. My ex-wife's father was Padilla's chauffeur. Born in 1900, he was the most super Catholic person I have ever known. He did, however, use his influence to buy five or six lots around the fringes of Mexico City which meant that he managed to raise his family of six girls and a boy in a middle-class  environment. He was a poor Indian baker from a small pueblo in the Sierra of Oaxaca who had come to Mexico City in the 1920's because the various guerrilla armies in the mountains printed worthless money to buy bread with that could not be used to buy food or flour with. I should also add that a baker is a sort of middle class profession, as poor Mexicans do not eat bread: they eat tortillas. Bread is a middle class thing in Mexico, or at least it was in 1920'sa Oaxaca.

Salvador Borrego's books were still prominently displayed in bookstores all over Mexico City when I was there in the 1960's. I would be surprised if they are not still in print.

In Mexico in the 1960's there were four parties: the PRI, which won nearly all elections, the PAN, which is the Catholic Party, the PARM, or Partido Autentico de la Revolucion Mexicana, an assortment of elderly generals longing for the past, and the PPS, the Partido Popular Socialista.

The PRI was probably defeated by Lazaro Cardenas' son Cuauhtemoc Cardenas in 1993 as a candidate of the PRD, Partido de la Revolucion Democratica (formed from the PPS, PARM and another Socialist Party), but the PRI stole the election. Only when Vicente Fox managed to get enough support to look as though the PAN was a viable party, did the US allow someone not of the PRI to win.

Mexican politics is a pretty complicated affair, because the most important moves are invisible to the average citizen, as are the mechanations of the US government.

Capitalism doesn't really work in Latin America. The most wealthy Latin nation is Puerto Rico, which has half of its citizens living in the US for lack of jobs, and is far poorer than Mississippi, the very poorest US state. Spain is clearly the most equitable Latin nation, and it has a rather typical European mildly Socialist government, with huge amounts of local control alloted to the various regions.




« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 11:52:45 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2008, 11:46:57 PM »
Has the Mexican oil industry been nationalied the whole time since the late thirtys?

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2008, 11:58:02 PM »
Has the Mexican oil industry been nationalied the whole time since the late thirtys?

==============================================
PEMEX (Petroleos Mexicanos) was formed in 1935, after Cardenas nationalized the industry. American interests were reimbursed for their holdings, normally based on the value declared on their tax forms. THis tended to piss them off, and they funded the Cristeros, as I said.

Pemex was known for corruption and incompetence for many years, but in the 1980's and 1990's, satellite photography and other technology allowed for many more discoveries of oil fields. The fluctuation in price of oil caused the collapse of the economy in the 1990's. The US firms were also legendary in their corruption.



"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2008, 12:06:46 AM »
Has the Mexican oil industry been nationalized the whole time since the late thirty's?

==============================================
PEMEX (Petroleos Mexicanos) was formed in 1935, after Cardenas nationalized the industry. American interests were reimbursed for their holdings, normally based on the value declared on their tax forms. This tended to piss them off, and they funded the Cristeros, as I said.

Pemex was known for corruption and incompetence for many years, but in the 1980's and 1990's, satellite photography and other technology allowed for many more discoveries of oil fields. The fluctuation in price of oil caused the collapse of the economy in the 1990's. The US firms were also legendary in their corruption.






Interesting , can the experience of Pemex be compared to anything similar elsewhere in the world that would demonstrate that it has done more for Mexico and its citizens as a nationalized enterprise than it would have done as a private enterprise?


BTW paying what their declared worth was on their tax forms seems like a very smart move, it would have been even smarter to offer these things for sale at auction to realize the difference in declared and true worth.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 12:09:56 AM by Plane »

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2008, 02:02:45 AM »
<<Mexican politics is a pretty complicated affair, because the most important moves are invisible to the average citizen, as are the mechanations of the US government.>>

EXACTLY how I figured it.  Thanks, XO.

------------------------------------------
plane:  <<The Success of Cuba is laughable  . . . >>

With all due respect, you just don't know what you're talking about.

plane:  << . . .  the success of socailism in China is tragic.>>

nonsense

<<IN 59 Castro was so nearly the King of Cuba that he could volenteer the death of every Cuban in Cuba for the sake of an effective attack on the USA , this kind of succes is not good for a people to acheive.>>

Castro wanted the Russians to stand firm on principle and not give in to Kennedy's nuclear blackmail.  He and the Chinese leadership IMHO correctly assessed JFK's threats as a bluff.  Their reasoning was that while China and Russia would suffer larger casualties than the U.S. in a nuclear missile exchange, they could absorb their casualties and survive, whereas the U.S. could not absorb its casualties without falling apart.  This was not volunteering the life of anyone, it was the decision of a man with balls of steel to stand up to a tyrant and face him down.  Knowing that in reality, the people represented by the tyrant were blowhards, able to threaten convincingly but unable to absorb a nuclear strike.  IMHO, the failure of Khruschev at that moment to stand up like a man and call the bluff was the start of the long slide into the end of communism.  The Russian people had learned to read between the lines of what little news they were allowed to process, and they knew that their leaders had gone soft since the days of Stalingrad, that  they had sold out to fascism .

<<China,between 59 and 63 they were claiming success ,while they were actually in famine, how bad was this famine we may never know because the cheif historical success of socailism is in covering up truth.>>

Oh, plane that is such bullshit.  China was plagued by famine for centuries - - in 1944, 4 million Chinese died of famine.  To blame the communists for famine, which in China was due to natural disaster, is ludicrous when the problem had existed for centuries, probably milennia, and the communists had been in power for all of eleven years.  The fact is that at this point in time, the Communists have brought China to a point where they are unlikely to be plagued ever again by famine.  You sure like to dwell in the past - - when it suits you.  Today the evidence of communism's success in China is everywhere and it's undeniable.  You just can't face it - - they did much better when they threw off Amerikkka's puppet rulers and took charge themselves.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Wow - the Huckster's Racist Connection
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2008, 07:40:29 AM »
Interesting , can the experience of Pemex be compared to anything similar elsewhere in the world that would demonstrate that it has done more for Mexico and its citizens as a nationalized enterprise than it would have done as a private enterprise?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before nationalization, the people of Mexico saw almost NO benefit from their petroleum resources. It is the nature of the oil business that the only people who really know what is under the ground, and how much is being pumped out, are the ones drilling the wells and doing the pumping. Observe that oil was not nationalized in Oklahoma, and huge discoveries were made on reservation land. The Indians have barely benefitted, the oil companies cleaned up bigtime.

For Mexico's people to see any benefit at all, for Mexico to even have Mexicans trained in petroleum engineerinf=g nationalization was the only possibility in 1934.
--------------------------------------------------

BTW paying what their declared worth was on their tax forms seems like a very smart move, it would have been even smarter to offer these things for sale at auction to realize the difference in declared and true worth.

So how the Hell do you propose that an auction be held if the resources are not to be sold? That is silly. The point was to make sure that whatever worth the oil had, it would at least go to some people in Mexico and not fly out of the country. The Mexican government could not auction off anything until it owned it. the oil cmpanies could not get any proice at all for any resources that were about to be lost. There could be no auction, and there wasn't, because this was not only a dumb idea, but impossible.

After FDR was elected the people of the US had little or no faith in Big Oil to do more than screw them. Capitalism in the US in 1934 was seen by most people as a dismal failure, and no one was in favor of sending troops off to die in Mexico for oil that would only belong to Standard Oil and friends. Cardenas was clever enough to see this and take advantage of it. And he was entirely right to have done so.
==============================================================================
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."