I got my butt kicked

[Plane]

Any human being should know that torture is just wrong.  If that human being is a father whose daughter is in great danger, and that the victim's information could save her, then obviously he's torn.

If it's not my daughter that could be saved, then I'm NOT torn.

Very simple.  I'm more distressed at the prospect of bad shit happening to my daughter than to anyone else's daughter.  That's just real life, BT.  Can't change it.

So any father has an excuse when his own daughter introduces an element of stress that is sufficient to cause deviance from the moral rule.  Nobody else has that excuse.  So in the real world, no torturer has an excuse.

I don't know when we have ever had a time with no torture at all. Especially in time of war.

I know that the English in WWII did not a a policy use torture vey much  but not at all?
I doubt it.
I know that Chircill orgainsed exraleagal death squads to patroll ad round up Natzis he thought especially egregious and dissapear them , on his personal orders , this didn't amount to a great number of trial free executions but there were a few.
Captured Prisoners being interrgated by the Allies in WWII got beaten up in ways secpificly forbidden by the Bush administation, the diffrence beig not better behavior in the past but more light on the subject in the present.

[Michael Tee]

<<I know that the English in WWII did not a a policy use torture vey much  but not at all?
I doubt it.>>

I've never heard of it.  I know plenty of British ex-servicemen, every one of whom is absolutely horrified by American torture and unbelievably contemptuous of Bush.  (You think I'M bad?  You should hear them.)

<<I know that Chircill orgainsed exraleagal death squads to patroll ad round up Natzis he thought especially egregious and dissapear them , on his personal orders , this didn't amount to a great number of trial free executions but there were a few.>>

I never heard of it, but I'm all in favour of it.  Too many of those bastards got away with murder.  My admiration of Churchill has just shot up again.  The man never disappoints.  Nazis are in a special class all by themselves, like cockroaches, only much, much lower.

<<Captured Prisoners being interrgated by the Allies in WWII got beaten up in ways secpificly forbidden by the Bush administation . . . >>

Rarely, if at all (except for Japs, who were basically reaping what they themselves had sown.)  The Germans responsible for the Malmedy massacre got off because of beatings administered by their American interrogators, but that 's the only example I know of.

[Plane]

<<I know that the English in WWII did not a a policy use torture vey much  but not at all?
I doubt it.>>

I've never heard of it.  I know plenty of British ex-servicemen, every one of whom is absolutely horrified by American torture and unbelievably contemptuous of Bush.  (You think I'M bad?  You should hear them.)

<<I know that Chircill orgainsed exraleagal death squads to patroll ad round up Natzis he thought especially egregious and dissapear them , on his personal orders , this didn't amount to a great number of trial free executions but there were a few.>>

I never heard of it, but I'm all in favour of it.  Too many of those bastards got away with murder.  My admiration of Churchill has just shot up again.  The man never disappoints.  Nazis are in a special class all by themselves, like cockroaches, only much, much lower.

<<Captured Prisoners being interrgated by the Allies in WWII got beaten up in ways secpificly forbidden by the Bush administation . . . >>

Rarely, if at all (except for Japs, who were basically reaping what they themselves had sown.)  The Germans responsible for the Malmedy massacre got off because of beatings administered by their American interrogators, but that 's the only example I know of.

Well then, why can't we put  members of Al Quieda in the same catagory as you put members if he Imperial Japaneese Army or the Natzi party?

[Michael Tee]

<<Well then, why can't we put  members of Al Quieda in the same catagory as you put members if he Imperial Japaneese Army or the Natzi party?>>

In the first place, I have never approved of the torture of either Japs or Nazis.  And the reason you can't categorize them so arbitrarily is because they are not fighting unprovoked wars of aggression and they did not commit large-scale atrocities like the rape of Nanking (900,000 dead) or the Holocaust (6 million.)  they are just run of the mill enemies whom you seem to have taken an inordinate dislike to.

[Plane]

<<Well then, why can't we put  members of Al Quieda in the same catagory as you put members if he Imperial Japaneese Army or the Natzi party?>>

In the first place, I have never approved of the torture of either Japs or Nazis.  And the reason you can't categorize them so arbitrarily is because they are not fighting unprovoked wars of aggression and they did not commit large-scale atrocities like the rape of Nanking (900,000 dead) or the Holocaust (6 million.)  they are just run of the mill enemies whom you seem to have taken an inordinate dislike to.

As you point out, you have more affection for your own daughter than for mine.
We have taken a dislike to the people who doubbled the score of Pearl Harbor but this is not inordinate , nor do they complain of worse offenses than the Japaneese or Natzis excuse list.

[Michael Tee]

<<As you point out, you have more affection for your own daughter than for mine.>>

Welcome to real life, plane.

<<We have taken a dislike to the people who doubbled the score of Pearl Harbor . . . >>

Well I'm sure you've noticed, they have taken a dislike to you.

<< but this is not inordinate >>

inordinate or not, it is certainly counterproductive

<< nor do they complain of worse offenses than the Japaneese or Natzis excuse list.>>

Not very many people around who can complain of "worse offenses" than what the Japs and the Nazis did.  I hope this isn't your justification of Amerikkkan conduct, "It's better than Nazis or Japs would do."  By that standard, any serial killer could claim he was less murderous than any top Nazi.  Makes no sense at all.

[_JS]

The problem with this entire discussion is that the torture is being aimed at people who have any last second information that will save us from the brink of destruction with a heroic final second snip of the blue wire on a deadly bomb.

That's Hollywood shit that has never existed.

The CIA, the United States Military, and the nations we've taught our torture techniques to, have never used them on authentic terrorist threats in the manner you all are speaking. You're justifying torture by creating a mythos in which it may be justifiable for it to exist because you cannot imagine the United States using out there in the real world, under circumstances that really aren't dire - as in some great cimactic scene to a Hollywood movie or television show.

If you read Kubark and the more updated torture manuals from the CIA, which were used to train other nations as well as CIA and military agents, you'll see that the torture implemented is not even made for last second vital information. The methodology of sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, electroshock, and simulated drowning are used over periods of weeks, months, and in some cases - years.

The idea is that the one's being tortured regress into near infantile states. They develop serious schizo-affective disorders, near total dependency, psychosis, and completely mentally broken down. Some of them survive nearly intact. Others have survived, but with serious psychological trauma. Others survived - but completely psychologically destroyed. And finally, some don't survive at all.

Your all's analogies, while well-meaning, are completely irrelevant. Your daughter is kidnapped? That's right out of Law & Order and yes, maybe you want the police to be rough with the captors, but that's a different discussion altogether. It has nothing to do with the torture we are using.

Those guys in Gitmo have no useful information left. They have been out of the loop for years, many were innocent all along. Yet, they were still shipped to other nations (extraordinary rendition) or tortured by the United States. There is no last second, life saving information there to be had. This is torture for a different purpose. The same is true in Iraq.

So why use torture if it isn't for information?

There are a few reasons why.

1. You use torture, especially of a horrific psychological nature, to remove any elements of society that hinder whatever goals you have. The more horrific it is, the less those that share the same views will be likely to publicly promote them.

2. You use this kind of torture to demonstrate who is in charge. That explains why so many people who aren't guilty of anything get tortured as well. This is a time-honored technique of simply demonstrating power and again it makes for great psychological fear.

3. You use this style of torture to learn about torture itself. It is difficult to learn about the psychology of torture when you don't have live participants to study upon. Not many college students are lining up for a psychiatric experiment on electroshock and waterboarding torture for $20.

Historical evidence for this is replete through many of the Latin American regimes (indeed, one of the CIA manuals was written specifically for the right-wing dictators in South America). Also, South Vietnam was a playground for torture of varying kinds.

[Michael Tee]

<<The problem with this entire discussion is that the torture is being aimed at people who have any last second information that will save us from the brink of destruction with a heroic final second snip of the blue wire on a deadly bomb.>>

Exactly.  That was my initial point, responding to a question of what if my daughter's life were at stake?  It is such bullshit and a perfect illustration of how fascists like to live in fantasy worlds - - the Jews are plotting to take over the world, the terrorists have your daughter in a secret underground chamber, Saddam is about to destroy Amerikkka, whatever.  It's an interesting point whether the head fascists (Hitler, Bush, et al.,) actually believe this shit themselves (I don't think Bush and Cheney believe any of it) but it sure is useful for keeping the True Believer rank-and-file within the fold.  I think fascists NEED to believe in that shit because it fills a gap in their lives, gives them a cause.  Whereas at the top of the fascist tree, it's just a handy way to manipulate the masses.

I think the theory of the usefulness of torture goes something like this:  A will name all the names he knows, he gives up B, C, D, etc.  So then we round up B, C, and D and torture them, and they give us E, F, and G (along with A) and they keep building up lists of names, connect it all up.  It's like assembling a jigsaw puzzle.  Maybe one day they will be following J, some guy who E gave up, and they'll find him meeting P (some guy who C gave up) and they'll figure things are getting interesting.  In theory, they might one day foil a bomb plot because of all the little snippets of info they got by torturing everyone who falls into their hands.  Knowledge is power, and torture gives them knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have.

How do you counteract torture?  Various ways.  Cyanide pills.  Training.  Physical training.  Training in making up bullshit stories that the investigators want to hear and are hard to disprove.  Letting them know what info can safely be given out and what can't.  I would think that at this point, al Qaeda ops are getting training on the psychology of the torturers.  How to psych them out.  Maybe give the names of local collaborators and convince the torturers that their guy is really with the Resistance.  I've met interrogators - - one said that some of the "terrorists" threaten their captors by drawing a finger across their own throats while looking into their eyes.  I'm sure if the interrogator is a local, that would start some of them thinking that it might be healthier for them in the long run to start playing both sides of the fence.  Be an interrogator for the Occupier, but feed some valuable stuff on the Occupier to the Resistance.   I read the story of a Jewish Resistance fighter in the Baltic who convinced a local guard that he'd be doing  himself a big favour if he looked the other way while she walked away from the police station.  Of course that stuff only works if the guard or the interrogator is kinda losing faith in the staying power of the occupation army.  That particular guard knew that the Red Army was just weeks or maybe days away.  Personally, I think it'd work pretty well in Iraq.   Somewhere I read that the Resistance fighters - - this was either in France or Algeria - -  were told to just hold out for 24 hours after capture, giving the rest of their Resistance cell time to get away.

I remember once someone asked the Archbishop of Canterbury to debate on the side of the affirmative on this proposition:  "Capital punishment is ineffective as a deterrent to murder and should therefore be abolished," and he replied that the more interesting debate would have been on the proposition that "Capital punishment does deter murder but should be abolished anyway."  I would never take the position that torture never produces anything of value to the interrogator.  It's hit-or-miss.  The interrogators use torture because they think they can get away with it.  In WWII, the Germans and the English each knew they would have prisoners in each other's custody, so torture on the one side would be met by torture on the other.  In their arrogance, the Americans figure that few if any of their men will be captured by the other side, so this gives them the green light to torture with impunity.  But all chickens come home to roost sooner or later.  If September 11 proved anything at all, it proved that the victims of Amerikkkan aggression and their champions have found new and potent ways to strike back at the aggressor.

[Plane]

<<As you point out, you have more affection for your own daughter than for mine.>>

Welcome to real life, plane.

Welcome to real life MT , it is Americans who decide what affection we hold for each other, and we don't depend on Europeans or Canadians opinions to form these affections. They kill us , weare offended all out of purportion , in your estimation.

<<We have taken a dislike to the people who doubbled the score of Pearl Harbor . . . >>

Well I'm sure you've noticed, they have taken a dislike to you.

that must be why we are killing each other , you think it is too bad that Americans are better at this , I don't.

<< but this is not inordinate >>

inordinate or not, it is certainly counterproductive

They are dieing in droves  that is the product of their choice.

<< nor do they complain of worse offenses than the Japaneese or Natzis excuse list.>>

Not very many people around who can complain of "worse offenses" than what the Japs and the Nazis did.  I hope this isn't your justification of Amerikkkan conduct, "It's better than Nazis or Japs would do."  By that standard, any serial killer could claim he was less murderous than any top Nazi.  Makes no sense at all.

You read too fast , they have excuses for what they do, and the Natzis and Imperial Japneese had excuses or what they did, I challenge the excuse list of the Al Quieda to be compared to the excuse list  of he Natzis or the Imperial Japaneese. As to their deeds since you bring that up , they are not as bad yet because they haven't yet the capability , their desire for mayhem is entirely the equal of any Natzi , their persuasian of their followers is  just as strong and just as false.

[Michael Tee]

<<That must be why we are killing each other , you think it is too bad that Americans are better at this , I don't.>>

plane, I don't even think you Americans are better at killing them than they are at killing you.  When you figure out what it costs you to kill every Iraqi or Afghan versus what it costs them to kill every Amerikkkan, it's pretty obvious to me who the more efficient killers are.  Which leads me to my next point:

<<They are dieing in droves  that is the product of their choice.>>

They may be "dying in droves" but your economy is going down the tubes real fast.  They know, even if you don't, that you'll be broke and have to break off the engagement before they lose enough men to have to  quit.  And they don't care as much about losing their lives for their land and religion as you Amerikkkans care about losing your almighty Dollars.

<<I challenge the excuse list of the Al Quieda to be compared to the excuse list  of he Natzis or the Imperial Japaneese.>>

Oh, I wouldn't do that, plane.  These guys have some very real grievances against Amerikkka and its little buddy Israel.  The Nazis have no legitimate grievances at all to justify the Holocaust and if the Japs have any excuses for what they did in China or how they treated Allied POWS, I have yet to hear them.

<<As to their deeds since you bring that up , they are not as bad yet because they haven't yet the capability , their desire for mayhem is entirely the equal of any Natzi , >> 

You're just blowing hot air now, plane, Osama bin Laden has never expressed any desire to exterminate an entire race of people and has never tortured any Amerikkkans as the Japs did, despite the provocations of Amerikkkan torture of captured Resistance fighters.  It's the oldest trick in the world for those who are guilty of war crimes and atrocities to point to their victims and accuse them  - - the victims - - of "wanting" to do the same thing.  Would you believe a child molester if he told you that his victim was very bad and wanted to do the same thing to other children?

[Plane]

"Osama bin Laden has never expressed any desire to exterminate an entire race of people... "

How do you know this?

"It's the oldest trick in the world for those who are guilty of war crimes and atrocities to point to their victims and accuse them  - - the victims - - of "wanting" to do the same thing. "

"

All right , but you don't accuse yourself of this trick? I KNOW that on 9-11 innocent Americans were victimised just to make a political point. Your death or mine would serve OSama Bin Laden just as well. You are his potential victim as much as any other of us , so how did he become a victim? He points to his victims and says that they deserve it.

Before he began killing Americans , Osama Bin Laden would have been welcome in the USA , he could hav improvd his fortune with dollars and he might could have done something constructive with his life ,he chose to give us violence , he did not need to.

"<<I challenge the excuse list of the Al Quieda to be compared to the excuse list  of he Natzis or the Imperial Japaneese.>>

Oh, I wouldn't do that, plane.  These guys have some very real grievances against Amerikkka and its little buddy Israel.  The Nazis have no legitimate grievances at all to justify the Holocaust and if the Japs have any excuses for what they did in China or how they treated Allied POWS, I have yet to hear them.

There were excuses to give for each and every thing that the Natzis ever did , and you are just chooseing to ignore them , the treatment of Weimar Germany wasn't magnanimos it makes the treatment of Palestine seem comprable in an Apple to apple way. I am not going to argue that these excuses were legitamate because I do not think that they are legitamate in just the same way that Osama Bin Laden offers stupid excuses for his killing of just abut anyone he chooses or people chosen randomly.

So if you want to call Hitlers complaints about the Treay of Versailles insuffecient justifacation for his campaign of murder , how will you remain consistant in this very simular circumstance?

[Michael Tee]

I don't think you even know what the excuses were that the Germans gave for the Holocaust.  You go on about the Weimar Republic. 

What the Germans suffered from under the Weimar Republic was the doing of France and Britain, but they did not seek to exterminate the French and British.  They claimed that it was all the fault of the Jews and they put the Jews in the gas chambers and lime pits.  It was absurd to claim that the Jews were responsible for any of Germany's sufferings.  Most of the Jews they killed lived in Poland and Russia and were very humble and poor people.  They had absolutely nothing to do with the peace treaties of Versailles, with German war reparations or with the travails of the Weimar Republic.

There was no excuse for what they did to the Jews because the Jews did not cause any of the sufferings that the German people went through.  When you say that they had an excuse for their treatment of the Jews, you are just talking through your ass. 

On the other hand, when Osama bin Laden talks about the very real sufferings of the Palestinians, these are caused by the Israelis and the Israelis are supported by the Americans.  He is completely justified in calling Americans the enemies of the Palestinians and of the Muslims if only by virtue of their continuing support of Israeli oppression.  I think it's the height of arrogance and stupidity to continue to claim that OBL is the bad guy and Amerikkkans are the good guys.  Each of you has legitimate grievances against the other.  What Amerikkka needs to do is recognize the damage they are doing which inflames a billion Muslims agaisnt them and stop doing it.  Otherwise, you will be locked into a war which you cannot win and cannot afford.

[Plane]

I don't think you even know what the excuses were that the Germans gave for the Holocaust.  You go on about the Weimar Republic. 

What the Germans suffered from under the Weimar Republic was the doing of France and Britain, but they did not seek to exterminate the French and British.  They claimed that it was all the fault of the Jews and they put the Jews in the gas chambers and lime pits.  It was absurd to claim that the Jews were responsible for any of Germany's sufferings.  Most of the Jews they killed lived in Poland and Russia and were very humble and poor people.  They had absolutely nothing to do with the peace treaties of Versailles, with German war reparations or with the travails of the Weimar Republic.

There was no excuse for what they did to the Jews because the Jews did not cause any of the sufferings that the German people went through.  When you say that they had an excuse for their treatment of the Jews, you are just talking through your ass. 

On the other hand, when Osama bin Laden talks about the very real sufferings of the Palestinians, these are caused by the Israelis and the Israelis are supported by the Americans.  He is completely justified in calling Americans the enemies of the Palestinians and of the Muslims if only by virtue of their continuing support of Israeli oppression.  I think it's the height of arrogance and stupidity to continue to claim that OBL is the bad guy and Amerikkkans are the good guys.  Each of you has legitimate grievances against the other.  What Amerikkka needs to do is recognize the damage they are doing which inflames a billion Muslims agaisnt them and stop doing it.  Otherwise, you will be locked into a war which you cannot win and cannot afford.

Yes the assertions of Hitler were absurd, but he as beleived just as firmly by people just as convinced of their rightness as you .

Osama does indeed blame the Jews , Al Quieda does inded quote the Protocols of the elders of Zion , and the innocent do still bear the brunt of the rage.

We are still compareing Apples to apples.  Big apples compared to small apples , they are the same sort of strange fruit.

[Michael Tee]

<<Yes the assertions of Hitler were absurd, but he as beleived just as firmly by people just as convinced of their rightness as you .

<<Osama does indeed blame the Jews , Al Quieda does inded quote the Protocols of the elders of Zion , and the innocent do still bear the brunt of the rage.>>

Hitler advocated the extermination of an entire race of people.  Osama didn't.
Hitler "firmly believed" the shit he blamed the Jews for?  (a) you don't know that and (b) it was not only untrue it was absurd.
Osama firmly believes the Jews are oppressing the Arabs and the Americans are supporting the Jews?  He is perfectly correct, that is exactly how it is.

<<We are still compareing Apples to apples. >>

No you are not.  I just showed you why you are not.  Osama has a justified grievance that is real and Hitler had an imaginary grievance that he may or may not have beleived.   apples and watermelons is more like it.

.

[Michael Tee]

<<Osama does indeed blame the Jews , Al Quieda does inded quote the Protocols of the elders of Zion , >>

You seem to be comparing Hitler with OBL and claiming that "Blaming the Jews" and "quoting the Protocols of the Elders" is the same as calling for the total extermination of the whole race, which OBL has NEVER done.

When you compare OBL with Hitler, what you are really doing is minimizing and trivializing the crimes of Hitler.  Hitler deliberately had six million innocent Jews put to death.  He started a war which took over 30 million lives.  You are talking out of your ass when you compare the two.