Author Topic: Open-Minded Liberals?  (Read 17359 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2008, 05:18:16 PM »
All of yours are.

Funny, then, how I can provide sources always and you rarely do.

You're a joke around here. Doesn't your boyfriend get upset?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2008, 05:39:04 PM »
<<You have provided your customers with X + $2,000 worth of food and services (so they haven't "lost" anything) and out of the total X + $2,000, you have paid your employees and suppliers (so they haven't "lost" anything, either) and you have $2,000 to spend that you did not have before.

<<Who "lost" the $2,000 if it's a zero-sum game?>>

The customer lost almost all of it.  It's up to the restaurateur whether he keeps all of it or whether he too pisses it away in somebody else's restaurant or hotel.

The customer didn't get $2,000 worth of anything.  If you add up the restaurant's cost of food, amortized cutlery, furniture, flatware etc. costs, pro-rated dishwashing, rent, water and electricity costs, pro-rated labour costs etc. you'll find that the customer paid $2000 for what the restaurateur paid $100 - - basically, he got $100 worth of food and services.   The customer leaves the restaurant carrying with him (unless he visits the washrooms first) the end products and results of the goods and services he received - - a few ounces of digesting protein and fibre, a cupful of coffee etc., some few molecules of which, together with a pleasant memory, will stay with him for more than 24 hours, some harming his body, some nourishing it.

What does the restaurateur have from the same transaction?  $2,000 minus the costs of doing business.  Whatever his net profit is, that's what he got.  More than the customer got, that's for God-damn sure.   The restaurateur, if he can afford the extravagance, can spend his earnings the same way as his customer did, or he can invest them, in which case he could keep them, spinning off interest or dividends, all the days of his life.  It should be pretty clear from this little disquisition as to who got the major benefit and who the minor from this little transaction.

Amianthus

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2008, 05:42:45 PM »
The customer didn't get $2,000 worth of anything.

So, you're saying that when someone works for you, he is your slave and does not deserve to be paid? If you pay him for labors that he does for you, you "lose" the money?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2008, 05:46:11 PM »
How to tell when the inmates have taken over the asylum:

Rich:  <<It's like the pie analogy. They think the pie is finite, when those of us who understand the American economy know the pie is limitless.>>

sirs:  <<Wealth is finite??  Frellin incredible. >>

G'nite, Josephine, I'll write when I get to Elba.

_JS

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2008, 05:49:10 PM »
Of course it is not a 100% loss.

So, only part of it is "new" money? Still means it's not a zero-sum game.

It depends on the level at which one is looking at it. Out of the percentage which was not lost as restaurant business from other establishments, what was lost in other trade-offs? Did a grocery store or deli lose business? Did a petrol station lose business because your restaurant is closer and more convenient?

Consumer choice is a trade-off.
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Amianthus

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2008, 05:50:35 PM »
Did a grocery store or deli lose business? Did a petrol station lose business because your restaurant is closer and more convenient?

Did a grocery store or deli GAIN business because I bought from them? Did a gas station GAIN business because I had the food delivered to my restaurant?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2008, 05:54:08 PM »
<<So, you're saying that when someone works for you, he is your slave and does not deserve to be paid? If you pay him for labors that he does for you, you "lose" the money?>>

How could that be when I included the pro-rated labour costs in calculating the value of what the guest received.  The waiter probably spent all of six minutes on him, but I'd count it.  Every cent of it.  Not to do so would be uncivilized.

_JS

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2008, 05:55:26 PM »

The loss comes from other restaurants losing their business.


That depends much on the market. A Jamaican restaurant and a Mexican Restaurant are not really going to be much competition to one another in a large market. But even similar restaurants can succeed. Not far from where I live, a locally owned Italian restaurant and a relatively new Carrabba's both seem to be doing just fine. I think the local Greek/Italian/Mediterranean restaurant lost the business, which is a shame, because their food was really good. Still, this is the nature of competition within the market, and that isn't really a bad thing.

I'm speaking in terms of classical economics. I'm not using anything that is controversial here. You're precisely right. It is competition.

The "infinite pie" is a myth because of the very things that many Americans cherish such as competition and consumer choice. The other factors that create finite wealth are inflation, saturation, trade-off, supply, demand, and other market pressures.

There is some false sense that everyone can be a billionaire, but the truth is that if everyone were a billionaire then inflation would destroy the value of the currency. Wealth is finite.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2008, 06:01:48 PM »
Did a grocery store or deli lose business? Did a petrol station lose business because your restaurant is closer and more convenient?

Did a grocery store or deli GAIN business because I bought from them? Did a gas station GAIN business because I had the food delivered to my restaurant?

LOL

Possibly. But you're missing the point. I never said that your business is a bad or evil thing. Yet, it is part of an economy that is finite. Sure, maybe a grocery store did gain business (doubtful that you purchase your food from a grocery store  :P), but it is a trade-off with the business they will lose. The same with the gas station. And what of the food distributors that lsoe business because of the restaurants you've got suffering a loss of customers? What of their gas stations that won't have their trucks stopping by any longer?

We can play this game all day. It does not change the basic economic facts.

Does wealth grow? Sure. That doesn't make it "infinite." And I know that you know that, because you know what "infinite" means. The truth is that the pie is finite and though money may exchange hands many times, it does not magically grow towards infinity.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #69 on: January 25, 2008, 06:01:57 PM »
How could that be when I included the pro-rated labour costs in calculating the value of what the guest received.  The waiter probably spent all of six minutes on him, but I'd count it.  Every cent of it.  Not to do so would be uncivilized.

And yet, the guy who owns the restaurant, who spent time putting together the menu, selecting recipes, buying materials, arranging deliveries, etc, should just go unpaid for his labor?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #70 on: January 25, 2008, 06:07:37 PM »
Does wealth grow? Sure. That doesn't make it "infinite." And I know that you know that, because you know what "infinite" means. The truth is that the pie is finite and though money may exchange hands many times, it does not magically grow towards infinity.

The pie is finite, but every minute of labor produces that much more wealth. So, while it's not infinite, it IS ever-growing.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #71 on: January 25, 2008, 06:16:06 PM »
Does wealth grow? Sure. That doesn't make it "infinite." And I know that you know that, because you know what "infinite" means. The truth is that the pie is finite and though money may exchange hands many times, it does not magically grow towards infinity.

The pie is finite, but every minute of labor produces that much more wealth. So, while it's not infinite, it IS ever-growing.

I mostly agree. There are times, of course, when it is not growing - or even shrinking. Germany of the 1920's is a classic example. Zimbabwe is a current one.

Also, I think that the industrial economy of old produced much more substantive wealth than the new service/financial sector economy of today. Though that is a wholly different debate for a different day.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

kimba1

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #72 on: January 25, 2008, 06:34:55 PM »
The loss comes from other restaurants losing their business. >

starbucks and payless shoes does this

they open in areas at a loss to cut 10% of profit to the local business
so in a year they will shutdown

but it`s a serious gamble
it`ll takes many years to make back the loss
if ever

_JS

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #73 on: January 25, 2008, 06:40:07 PM »
The loss comes from other restaurants losing their business. >

starbucks and payless shoes does this

they open in areas at a loss to cut 10% of profit to the local business
so in a year they will shutdown

but it`s a serious gamble
it`ll takes many years to make back the loss
if ever

I'm not familiar with the business practice of Starbucks, but a company that large and profitable can no doubt afford a short-term loss in certain small markets if it means a long-term gain.

Wal-Mart is infamous for this practice. For a while, in the 1990's they would open more than one "Superstore" in a small-sized city. By doing so they could quickly dismantle most of the local competition, especially mom & pop operations. Typically they would return to shut down one of the stores and leave one as a permanent fixture. The other area where Wal-Mart was succesful was in convincing local governments to offer long-term tax breaks, utillity rate breaks, and other incentives.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Michael Tee

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Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2008, 06:44:20 PM »
<<And yet, the guy who owns the restaurant, who spent time putting together the menu, selecting recipes, buying materials, arranging deliveries, etc, should just go unpaid for his labor?>>

Aww, I was just being lazy.  OK, add up all  his time, figure what the various activities are worth in the labour market for time spent, take his total time spent on all that activity, pro-rate it to the time spent by the customer in the restaurant enjoying the fruits of the boss's labour and add that as part of the "value" received by the customer. Won't add much value, but fair's fair.