Author Topic: Open-Minded Liberals?  (Read 17352 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #120 on: January 26, 2008, 05:13:58 PM »
sigh....whatever.

I am just trying to help you gain more civility. And for all you know, BT could be discussing the low civility quotient with Brass, if what you say is true.

I hope this is not what you are like in real life, e.g. confrontative.

Life is simply too short...
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 06:22:00 PM by The_Professor »
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Rich

  • Guest
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #121 on: January 26, 2008, 05:14:49 PM »
Spare me.

As for BT, you'd have to ask him.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #122 on: January 26, 2008, 06:13:18 PM »
<<Mike knows his propaganda well. This is was Stalin did (when he wasn't murdering his own people by the million) to people who weren't communist butchers. He called them fascists/Nazi, but only after the deal he made with the Nazis fell through. Prior to that the Soviets loved the Nazis, just like two peas in a pod.>>

Ahhh, your ignorance is showing through again, Rich.   (as always, in everything you post)  Since Hitler swore from the beginning of his career that Communism was a Jewish plot that had to be eradicated from the face of the earth, it strains credulity that the Communists would ever love the Nazis.  Only a moron could believe that.  You, it seems, are that moron.  No surprises there.

The deal that Stalin made with Hitler was made out of necessity immediately upon the failure of three years of negotiations between Great Britain, France and the U.S.S.R. aimed at producing an Anglo-British-Soviet non-aggression treaty.  Those negotiations failed because of Poland.  Poland failed to agree to grant free passage of French and/or British troops through Poland to Russia and free passage to Russian troops through Poland to attack Germany in aid of France.  Later it transpired that the British government, negotiating only because of popular pressure from the Labour Party, had given secret instructions to its negotiators NOT to conclude an agreement with the U.S.S.R. under any circumstances.  Whether Britain and France deliberately refused to pressure Poland to agree to passage of Soviet troops is a moot question.  The negotiations failed, after Stalin had been jerked around for three years.

Fortunately, Stalin was far from an idiot.  Not fully trusting the British and French governments, he had seen the writing on the wall, when every round of Soviet concessions in the negotiations was met by a new round of fresh Anglo-French demands.  Stalin had ordered his Foreign Minister, V. Molotov, to open secret negotiations with his Nazi counterpart, von Ribbentrop and within days of the failure of the tripartite talks, the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Treaty was inked in August 1939, giving the Soviet Union almost two more years to prepare its defences against the Nazi invasion which it knew was coming.  From the Nazis, whom according to Rich, the Soviets "loved like two peas in the pod."

<<Unlike you, I don't support a failed ideology that is abhorred around the world for it's brutality.>>

No, you worship an American crypto-fascist regime that is abhorred around the world for its brutality.

<<Communist has left more blood than the Nazis ever dreamed of. >>

God-damned right.  The blood of Nazis, fascists and anti-Semites, counterrevolutionaries and enemies of the people.

<<Therefore you don't mean shit. You're nothing but a useful idiot for murdering monsters.>>

Unlike you, a useless idiot for murdering monsters?

<<Spare me your communist bullshit.>>

That's too easy, moron.  Don't read anything from Michael Tee.   Better yet, don't read anything.  Just keep watching Fox "News."

Incidentally, moron, I never did call you a Nazi.  That's just more of your lies, bullshit and whining.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #123 on: January 26, 2008, 11:29:33 PM »
So MT , you are a manager or a boss or something like that?


How did that come about?

Are you good for your employees and customers?

Have you ever had a customer stop using your service and go to a compeditor for better service /product?

Have you ever had an employee leave your business to get  better job than you could give him?


I think that as a general rule restaurants sell the whole experience of eating out and not just food. The decor and lighting , music in he background and attentive staff cost more than the raw food , but where they sell raw food is called a grocery store and the competition between restaurant and grocers isn't direct even though all the customers can choose to cook for themselves.


   I don't think it is illegal for people to open restaurants with co-op ownership. An employee owned restaurant might not need anyone to ensure the employees didn't thieve. What keeps this from happening commonly?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2008, 07:02:09 AM »
<<So MT , you are a manager or a boss or something like that?>>

I started out as an employee, then I became a boss. 

<<How did that come about?>>

Sorry, plane, I don't want to get too personal here.

<<Are you good for your employees and customers?>>

I'm a good boss now but I made my share of mistakes in the beginning.  I never took any courses in management, so I learned by trial and error.  After one really disastrous error, I found my way via business magazine articles into the business sections of libraries and from there into the business sections of bookstores.  I think I got from all that an analytical framework for taking stock of a situation from the beginning.  I also learned some of the jargon of management, which I used to laugh at previously.  I always wanted to be a good boss, but didn't realize at the beginning that it was actually an art and a science.  I've got a whole personal theory of management now, but that's a book in itself, not a post.

As for my customers, I think on the whole I've been pretty good for them.  I would rate myself as well above average but not the best, someone who frequently could provide the same level of service as the best in the field.  The best in my business have had to make many sacrifices which I am just not prepared to make.  Of course, from time to time, mistakes were made.  I'm probably still making 'em, just not as many as the competition.

<<Have you ever had a customer stop using your service and go to a compeditor for better service /product?>>

Not very often, and when they did, they rarely if ever got better service/product.  But it's happened.

<<Have you ever had an employee leave your business to get  better job than you could give him?>>

What I do is pretty intense and demanding - - there's a burnout rate among employees of three to five years.  There's a short learning curve and I'm an excellent teacher/trainer, so employees are highly replaceable.   This also means there's a glass ceiling on wages.  Hiring the right people is absolutely critical.   That is also an art and a science in its own right and I think I've become excellent in that as well.  I could probably write a book about it, but the best book on the subject has already been written.  By Canadian authors, I proudly add.  I don't mind at all when an employee leaves because my competitors are stupid enough to pay him or her more money, and often I've helped them exit into better-paying positions.  This has actually reaped me enormous benefits, but that's a whole other story.  In 40-plus years in business, only one employee ever left me on bad terms and I'm still friends with many of my former employees.

<<I think that as a general rule restaurants sell the whole experience of eating out and not just food. The decor and lighting , music in he background and attentive staff cost more than the raw food , but where they sell raw food is called a grocery store and the competition between restaurant and grocers isn't direct even though all the customers can choose to cook for themselves.>>

I wouldn't agree with that at all.  You're speaking of a better class of restaurants, "fine dining" and such, but there are plenty of "greasy spoons" and diners where a businessman just wants a bacon-and-eggs breakfast or a quick lunch and doesn't give a shit what kind of atmosphere he's eating in, so long as it's quick and clean.

<<I don't think it is illegal for people to open restaurants with co-op ownership. An employee owned restaurant might not need anyone to ensure the employees didn't thieve. What keeps this from happening commonly?>>

I don't think capitalism produces the mindset or facilitates the venture.  I became familiar with the concept in Cuba, where my family and I have stayed at small, worker-owned resort hotels and eaten in worker-owned restaurants.  Somehow the government had empowered the workers to think of themselves as equal to anyone else and capable of organizing and running their own enterprises collectively without the need to have parasites interposing themselves between workers and customers and skimming off the profits.  I think the government makes it easy for them to get up and running with some advice and low-cost loans, the same general way they encourage people to build their own homes cooperatively.

It was interesting that in the hotel we stayed at, the workers themselves had seen the need for a manager and had finally taken one on.  I had an interesting discussion with him once, and he was complaining about the difficulties of managing what was effectively a mini-democracy, where all the workers had a vote and all decisions were collective.  For example, he was complaining about his inability to fire anyone.  The decision would have to be a collective one, and the discussions on the failings of Companero (Comrade) X would be interminable.  The usual decision was to give the companero one more warning.  I would guess that sooner or later, the collective would come to the point where a companero would have to be given the boot, but the manager was frustrated in not having the power to fire on the spot.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 07:08:44 AM by Michael Tee »

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2008, 11:10:34 AM »
 

<<How did that come about?>>

Sorry, plane, I don't want to get too personal here.

No problem , you were generous enough with the rest of your answer
Quote

<<Are you good for your employees and customers?>>

I'm a good boss now but I made my share of mistakes in the beginning.  I never took any courses in management, so I learned by trial and error.  After one really disastrous error, I found my way via business magazine articles into the business sections of libraries and from there into the business sections of bookstores.  I think I got from all that an analytical framework for taking stock of a situation from the beginning.  I also learned some of the jargon of management, which I used to laugh at previously.  I always wanted to be a good boss, but didn't realize at the beginning that it was actually an art and a science.  I've got a whole personal theory of management now, but that's a book in itself, not a post.

As for my customers, I think on the whole I've been pretty good for them.  I would rate myself as well above average but not the best, someone who frequently could provide the same level of service as the best in the field.  The best in my business have had to make many sacrifices which I am just not prepared to make.  Of course, from time to time, mistakes were made.  I'm probably still making 'em, just not as many as the competition.


So in spite of your arguement , you are aware of the value of management . Since a lot of the value is intangable and magement holds the books I suppose that it does become easy for some management to charge more for their service than it really adds value to the business, but a business that is managed very well has an odvious avantage over competition tat is managed poorly and customers should flock twards the business that treats them better , so depending on the nature of the business and the competition the quality of management can be the diffrence between success and failure. So how much is that worth?
Quote

<<I think that as a general rule restaurants sell the whole experience of eating out and not just food. The decor and lighting , music in he background and attentive staff cost more than the raw food , but where they sell raw food is called a grocery store and the competition between restaurant and grocers isn't direct even though all the customers can choose to cook for themselves.>>

I wouldn't agree with that at all.  You're speaking of a better class of restaurants, "fine dining" and such, but there are plenty of "greasy spoons" and diners where a businessman just wants a bacon-and-eggs breakfast or a quick lunch and doesn't give a shit what kind of atmosphere he's eating in, so long as it's quick and clean.

So you have been to Waffle House , where quick , freindly and cleanly is the selling point , even though they all buy their chops wholesale , they charge diffrently as the serve them. Generally you pay more where you get more attntion from the staff and moe expertise fom the chef but certainly you pay more when the decor is haught and the lighting is soft. Everyone knows this , but he hifalutin place doesn't close down when a McDonalds opens next door
Quote

I don't think capitalism produces the mindset or facilitates the venture.  I became familiar with the concept in Cuba, where my family and I have stayed at small, worker-owned resort hotels and eaten in worker-owned restaurants.

The mindset is not the problem , and the capitol should be more availible to a large group than it is to an individual , you were told the reason that individually owned and corproate owned restraunts outcompete in an environment where neither is forbidden , the guy in Cuba that was a manager in a co-op owned hotell told you.
Quote
The decision would have to be a collective one, and the discussions on the failings of Companero (Comrade) X would be interminable.  
Quote
The comrades place their prioritys in a natural order for people in a group , but the public would be better served by  business that placed the needs of the customer very highly.
Quote

Still here are  few successes of co-op ownership http://www.thefarmcommunity.com/ would you go for a stay on "The Farm" if your choice could be a stay at "Sandals " www.sandals.com  ?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #126 on: January 27, 2008, 12:12:25 PM »
I think there's a very fundamental difference in capitalist and socialist outlooks, and I thank you for making it clear to me in your comments on the need for management and more particularly on the manager of the Cuban worker-owned resort hotel.  You are focused on what the manager's services are "worth?"  How much do they contribute to the success of the organization as opposed, say, to how much the sweeper contributes?  In the Cuban cooperative, you would see a reverse focus - - not on the contribution but on the needs of the participants.  What does Comrade X need?  What does Comrade Y need?  They all get basic salary from the profits of the enterprise.  When the surplus has reached the point where it's no longer reserve but some of it can be distributed, they have a meeting of the collective.  This comrade needs a new roof, for example.  The needs of the participants are discussed and the surplus distributed accordingly.  I would suppose (but my discussions with the manager did not go this far) that if no one else had as pressing a need as the new roof, the remaining surplus would then be distributed equally or pro-rated to the hours of labour contributed by the members.

Although the manager never really talked theory, I am realizing now as I write this that the theoretical underpinning of the cooperative was the classic Marxist "From each according to his ability to each according to his need."

<<The comrades place their prioritys in a natural order for people in a group , but the public would be better served by  business that placed the needs of the customer very highly.>>

What "public" would be "better served" by the fawning attitude of servility cultivated by the "fine dining" establishments of the capitalist world and at what cost to human dignity and the dignity of labour?  Service in Cuba was generally on-time and courteous but if the bar-tender had had a rough night or the watiress had broken up with her boy-friend and was hating the world, you'd know about it.  Just a little reminder that we're interacting with live human beings, not robots, and even on vacation there are other human beings you are going to have to deal with and sometimes their problems become your problems and their sorrows become your sorrows, like it or not.  Sure the service is a hundred times better in New York and sometimes you can grab a few precious minutes of her working hour and learn a bit about the girl who's serving your Starbucks, but the contrast generally between the bright, chirpy 100% artificial style of New York service and the unembellished "real" service of a non-servile dignified work force in Cuba is noticeable.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #127 on: January 27, 2008, 12:37:59 PM »
Sorry, plane, I missed this question:

Still here are  few successes of co-op ownership http://www.thefarmcommunity.com/ would you go for a stay on "The Farm" if your choice could be a stay at "Sandals " www.sandals.com  ?

I've known about "The Farm" and similar projects for a long time.  There are two kinds of vacation my wife and I take when not visiting the grandchildren.  "Sun and Sand," where the object is to find a lazy beach with a snorkelling reef available just off-shore, with good food and a dance floor with a great live band "in-house" or no further away than the next hotel.  That's not "The Farm."  It might be Sandals.  The other is to go to a great European city, taking a good guidebook and great walking shoes, know or learn enough of the language to go anywhere on our own, check into a cheap hotel - - really cheap, no amenities - - and then go anywhere and everywhere by public transportation or on foot or bicycle,  eating wherever we find ourselves, occasionally looking up places to eat from the guidebook, the internet or word of mouth.  That's not "The Farm" either, and it's sure as hell not Sandals.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #128 on: January 27, 2008, 12:53:05 PM »
Sorry, plane, I missed this question:

Still here are  few successes of co-op ownership http://www.thefarmcommunity.com/ would you go for a stay on "The Farm" if your choice could be a stay at "Sandals " www.sandals.com  ?

I've known about "The Farm" and similar projects for a long time.  There are two kinds of vacation my wife and I take when not visiting the grandchildren.  "Sun and Sand," where the object is to find a lazy beach with a snorkelling reef available just off-shore, with good food and a dance floor with a great live band "in-house" or no further away than the next hotel.  That's not "The Farm."  It might be Sandals.  The other is to go to a great European city, taking a good guidebook and great walking shoes, know or learn enough of the language to go anywhere on our own, check into a cheap hotel - - really cheap, no amenities - - and then go anywhere and everywhere by public transportation or on foot or bicycle,  eating wherever we find ourselves, occasionally looking up places to eat from the guidebook, the internet or word of mouth.  That's not "The Farm" either, and it's sure as hell not Sandals.


Now I am wondering who buys anything from "the farm".

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Open-Minded Liberals?
« Reply #129 on: January 27, 2008, 12:58:28 PM »
<<Now I am wondering who buys anything from "the farm".>>

My guess is (1) real activists or (2) people who don't know about the Caribbean and/or can't swim and/or don't give a shit about Europe.

And probably a ton of reporters from the "alternative" media.