Author Topic: Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney  (Read 19880 times)

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Rich

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Re: Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney
« Reply #135 on: February 02, 2008, 10:45:46 PM »
>>Why would I? They're not going to have a retarded child. The idea of marriage for procreation in today's society is laughable.<<

I suppose you would because earlier you said:

>>>If the child of a marriage has (I don't know the chances here, I'm just going to state a number) an 80% chance of producing a non-viable offspring, then that marriage probably shouldn't happen,?<<<

You put forth the assertion that marriage is for procreation when you said a marriage between siblings would produce (you said 80% chance) of a ?non-viable? offspring. If marriage isn?t for procreation why would you use procreation as a reason against allowing siblings to marry?

>>No, it would not be alright, because of the incest taboo. Incest is only ok if you're a member of a royal family it seems.<<

Homosexuality is also taboo in the majority of the world. When given the chance to vote on allowing homosexuals to marry, it is soundly defeated. Why? Because it?s taboo. That doesn?t stop homosexuals from demanding it. Why can?t sibling demand it too?

>>When a movement has numbers and support, then it becomes recognized and becomes an issue for discussion. Non numerical issues (incest marriages) are not clamoring to be recognized by the incest community. I've been told that the incest community is a pretty close one. (that's a joke rich).<<

Again, it doesn?t have support, as is evidence by popular vote. Regardless of numbers, if two people have a loving and committed relationship, why can?t they marry? What business is it of yours?

>>There is a lot that has changed in sexual psychology in the last 40 years. The treatments for pedophiles and fetishists for example. That said, it wasn't too long ago that being black, Jewish, insert your minority, were considered to be inferior, and still are in some circles.<<

One thing is for certain, Americans are much more tolerant about homosexuals in general than they were 40 years ago, but disagreeing on the subject of same sex marriage doesn?t translate into inferiority and I believe it is disingenuous to say so.

So in your opinion siblings shouldn?t marry because they are inferior? I can only assume it to be true since you are denying them something you think you consider a ?right.?

... and Johnny Cash rocks ...

fatman

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Re: Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney
« Reply #136 on: February 02, 2008, 11:54:04 PM »
I suppose you would because earlier you said:

>>>If the child of a marriage has (I don't know the chances here, I'm just going to state a number) an 80% chance of producing a non-viable offspring, then that marriage probably shouldn't happen,?<<<

You put forth the assertion that marriage is for procreation when you said a marriage between siblings would produce (you said 80% chance) of a ?non-viable? offspring. If marriage isn?t for procreation why would you use procreation as a reason against allowing siblings to marry?


Alright, I probably need to make this clearer.  The argument against allowing siblings wasn't based on whether or not they would procreate, or whether procreation should be a factor in any marriage, but with the fact that if they did procreate there is a drastic likelihood of non viablility of the child.  If marriage is for procreation purposes only then perhaps we shouldn't allow marriages of people over age 45, and disband marriages when the children are raised.  Hopefully I've cleared that.

Homosexuality is also taboo in the majority of the world.

Mostly only in Western Civilization, where culture has been influenced by Abrahamic faiths.

When given the chance to vote on allowing homosexuals to marry, it is soundly defeated.

Same sex marriage/civil unions/marriage benefits are legal in these countries:

The Netherlands, 2001.

Belgium, 2003.

Canada, 2005.

Spain, 2005.

Denmark, 1989.

Norway, 1996.

Sweden, 1996.

Iceland, 1996.

France, 1999

Germany, 2001.

Finland, 2002.

Luxembourg, 2004.

New Zealand, 2004.

Britain, 2005.

And these states:

Vermont, USA, 2000

Massachusetts, USA, 2004.

Connecticut, USA, 2005.

New Jersey, USA, 2006.

New Hampshire, USA, 2008.

Oregon, USA, 2008.

Maine, USA.

California, USA.

Washington, USA.

Hawaii, USA.

Admittedly, the rights and responsibilities of these unions vary from nation to nation and state to state, but I don't buy into the rationale that it's defeated everywhere it's come up for a vote.

Because it?s taboo. That doesn?t stop homosexuals from demanding it. Why can?t sibling demand it too?

What country or state allows incest marriage? (I'm going to refrain from humor here, no point in offending someone by accident).  Obviously in those countries and states where same sex unions are allowed, the taboo of homosexuality is greatly diminished.  The same can't be said for incest.

Again, it doesn?t have support, as is evidence by popular vote.

Popular vote isn't everything in our system of government.  There is a reason why we elect representatives and appoint judges instead of voting on every issue.  The legislative, judicial, and executive branches all have mechanisms to protect people from negative aspects of a popular vote.

Regardless of numbers, if two people have a loving and committed relationship, why can?t they marry?

Outside of an incestuous marriage, which I've tried to address, I think that's the topic of this debate.

What business is it of yours?

None, except (in the case of an incest marriage with nonviable offspring [I've got think of a new phrase, I hate that one]) for when my tax dollars go to subsidize the relatively expensive and continuing health care of that child, and the relatively expensive special needs education of that child.

One thing is for certain, Americans are much more tolerant about homosexuals in general than they were 40 years ago,

Very true, a lot of progress has been made.

but disagreeing on the subject of same sex marriage doesn?t translate into inferiority and I believe it is disingenuous to say so.

It might to you, as I am unaware of your personal views on the morality of homosexuality.  That said, it is clear that to at least some people, homosexuality is a morally inferior activity, by which inferences could be drawn that homosexuals are inferior persons.  I don't think it's disingenous, I said in here before that I realize there are a myriad of reasons that people oppose gay marriage, some for religious reasons, some simply because they don't like homosexuals.  I've always made it a point not to call someone homophobic unless I see direct evidence that they are.


So in your opinion siblings shouldn?t marry because they are inferior?

Inferior as a comparison to what?

I can only assume it to be true since you are denying them something you think you consider a ?right.?

You know what they say about the word assume.  What makes straight marriage a "right"?

... and Johnny Cash rocks ...

And there is something that you and I can unequivocally agree upon Rich.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 12:12:23 AM by fatman »

Plane

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Re: Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney
« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2008, 09:43:49 AM »
I understood this from the beginning, Fatman. We disagree. I doubt the world will stop revolving because we disagree. No problem...

True enough Prof.  I do like the ability to disagree cordially though.

In support of Marrage the Government has given certain priveledges to the married.

Why?  What does the Constitution say about marriage, gay, straight, or polygamous?

There is a long list of these priveledges , but Marrage predates our government , might predate government itself , and doesn't need the government's help to exist.

But it needs the governments help to protect it from homosexuals?  (Constitutional Amendments)

As long as the government doesn't do things harmfull to marrage , it is all good.

What possible harm can government do to marriage?  It's been around forever (above) so I don't buy into the idea that because some homosexuals marry each other that it's suddenly under assault and about to fall into this morass of depravity.

Lets allow anyone to designate a power of atturny to a single other person of his choice , and to this coupleing let the tax advantage, the right to speak for , the right to visit in hospital and all other appropriate rights attached to marrage ,give.

Why not?  What business of yours is it?  Because Soon every gangster in the county will have "married " hs bookeeper?  That's a straw man argument and we both know it.  How many husbands and wives marry each other to further their criminal enterprises?  Relatively few I would imagine, I don't see how it would be different with gay marriage.

Oh well , unintended consequences are oten more important than the intended ones.

So the best policy is to always do nothing because it may have unintended consequences more important than the original?  That's hogwash plane and we both know that too.


"Plane: Try not to mix My responses with the Professors , we have slightly diffrent points of view and I hate to loose the nuance."



Gee, no one loves me, it seems. :-)

Different points of view? Doesn't sound like it, Plane. At least on many issues discussed here. Weird, actually. Hmmm, upon reivew, you are a bit more pro-Bush than I. On social and theological issues we do not differ. Must be why we attracted the same woman.




You are ?
Don't get too interested in N.

The_Professor

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Re: Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney
« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2008, 12:27:24 PM »
 ;D  ;D  ;D

Only L.
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Rich

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Re: Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney
« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2008, 01:05:03 PM »
>>Alright, I probably need to make this clearer. The argument against allowing siblings wasn't based on whether or not they would procreate, or whether procreation should be a factor in any marriage, but with the fact that if they did procreate there is a drastic likelihood of non viablility of the child.<<

Since in your opinion, procreation has nothing to do with marriage, you shouldn?t have mentioned it. However, we do know that procreation is one of the products of a marriage between a man and a woman. Every civilization is based on the family unite. In this way our species survives and prospers. Of course we could just mate indiscriminately, but without the family unite, bonded by marriage, survival rates would be greatly diminished. Human beings survived because of marriage between men and women. Without it, I doubt we could have evovled into what we are today.


>>If marriage is for procreation purposes only then perhaps we shouldn't allow marriages of people over age 45, and disband marriages when the children are raised. Hopefully I've cleared that.<<

You did, but the idea of not allowing people over 45 to marry, or dissolving marriages after children are raised is kind of silly, don?t you think? Men can father children virtually until death, so you?d really be talking about women.


>>Mostly only in Western Civilization, where culture has been influenced by Abrahamic faiths.<<

It?s dangerous to be a homosexual in the Middle East, and while homosexuality is becoming more excepted in Western civilization, I?d have to say that it?s still taboo in most of the world. Here?s a link to Countries that have laws against homosexuality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world#Africa

You?ll find that while there are many, many countries that don?t have laws punishing homosexual activity, there are probably more that do. And most that don?t have laws against it per say, don?t have any laws to protect it either, let alone laws that allow homosexuals to marry.

>>Same sex marriage/civil unions/marriage benefits are legal in these countries: Admittedly, the rights and responsibilities of these unions vary from nation to nation and state to state, but I don't buy into the rationale that it's defeated everywhere it's come up for a vote.<<

A very small number, and all of them are Western counties. By the way, I have no problem with a civil union, I?m against (at least) the Catholic Church condoning homosexual marriage.

>>What country or state allows incest marriage? (I'm going to refrain from humor here, no point in offending someone by accident).<<

What difference does that make? Homosexuals weren?t allowed to get married and it?s been changed, at least a little. If it needs to be changed to allow same sex marriage because they have the same ?right? as heterosexuals, couldn?t or shouldn?t it be changed to allow siblings to marry?

>>Obviously in those countries and states where same sex unions are allowed, the taboo of homosexuality is greatly diminished. The same can't be said for incest.<<

Greatly diminished? I really don?t think so. In the real world homosexuals are still the butt of jokes from children and adults. You know this. I don?t think much has changed regarding how average people view homosexuals. The activity of a small, loud group of activists is drowning out decent. One big factor in what appears to be increased acceptance is the media. Hollywood approval doesn?t necessarily translate into acceptance in fly-over country.

>>Popular vote isn't everything in our system of government. There is a reason why we elect representatives and appoint judges instead of voting on every issue. The legislative, judicial, and executive branches all have mechanisms to protect people from negative aspects of a popular vote.<<

True, but once again, when laws pertaining to homosexual marriage are put to a vote, it almost always loses. It?s true, the federal government can force something upon the people, but it doesn?t mean they like it, nor that they wouldn?t attempt to change it.

>>Outside of an incestuous marriage, which I've tried to address, I think that's the topic of this debate.<<

I thought the topic of this particular debate was why homosexuals who have a loving committed relationship can marry and loving committed siblings cannot?


>>None, except (in the case of an incest marriage with nonviable offspring [I've got think of a new phrase, I hate that one]) for when my tax dollars go to subsidize the relatively expensive and continuing health care of that child, and the relatively expensive special needs education of that child.<<

You?re speculating. You don?t know the result of siblings having children anymore than I do. Besides, you claimed marriage has nothing to do with marriage and should be left out of this discussion.

>>That said, it is clear that to at least some people, homosexuality is a morally inferior activity, by which inferences could be drawn that homosexuals are inferior persons. ? I've always made it a point not to call someone homophobic unless I see direct evidence that they are.<<

Okay, when you put ?morally? in front of homosexuality I can agree that people do look upon it that way, not simply inferior.

If you?re going to open up marriage to people of the same sex because they love each other and want to enjoy the benefits (tell me what those are sometime because after 21 years you begin to wonder ?.  ;)) why shouldn?t siblings, or polygamists enjoy the same right? I don?t think you?ve made your case for discriminating against these groups.

Plane

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Re: Vote on arresting Bush, Cheney
« Reply #140 on: February 04, 2008, 12:11:10 AM »
I suppose you would because earlier you said:

>>>If the child of a marriage has (I don't know the chances here, I'm just going to state a number) an 80% chance of producing a non-viable offspring, then that marriage probably shouldn't happen,?<<<

You put forth the assertion that marriage is for procreation when you said a marriage between siblings would produce (you said 80% chance) of a ?non-viable? offspring. If marriage isn?t for procreation why would you use procreation as a reason against allowing siblings to marry?


Alright, I probably need to make this clearer.  The argument against allowing siblings wasn't based on whether or not they would procreate, or whether procreation should be a factor in any marriage, but with the fact that if they did procreate there is a drastic likelihood of non viablility of the child.  If marriage is for procreation purposes only then perhaps we shouldn't allow marriages of people over age 45, and disband marriages when the children are raised.  Hopefully I've cleared that.

Homosexuality is also taboo in the majority of the world.

Mostly only in Western Civilization, where culture has been influenced by Abrahamic faiths.

When given the chance to vote on allowing homosexuals to marry, it is soundly defeated.

Same sex marriage/civil unions/marriage benefits are legal in these countries:

The Netherlands, 2001.

Belgium, 2003.

Canada, 2005.

Spain, 2005.

Denmark, 1989.

Norway, 1996.

Sweden, 1996.

Iceland, 1996.

France, 1999

Germany, 2001.

Finland, 2002.

Luxembourg, 2004.

New Zealand, 2004.

Britain, 2005.

And these states:

Vermont, USA, 2000

Massachusetts, USA, 2004.

Connecticut, USA, 2005.

New Jersey, USA, 2006.

New Hampshire, USA, 2008.

Oregon, USA, 2008.

Maine, USA.

California, USA.

Washington, USA.

Hawaii, USA.
.


Are these all recent?