Author Topic: Some Political Ruminations  (Read 11991 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2008, 03:05:45 AM »

Actually i don't.


Oh don't be dense.


Should educators be held accountable for their work?


Yep.


Is 5th grade reading competence an unrealistic goal for 5th graders?


Nope.


Should taxpayers get value for their investment?


Investment? Heh. I mean, yes, of course.


What say you?


I say we not only don't need the federal government for all that, the federal government trying to impose a top down, one size fits all education plan is going to really interfere in most of those things being properly accomplished. Teaching students, contrary to your earlier comparison, is not like making drugs. There is no single recipe for it. It cannot be plotted out by centralized planners.

As for taxpayers getting a return on their "investment", I say the federal Department of Education is a complete waste of taxpayer "investment" and should be eliminated. I have not liked NCLB from day one. I'm not opposed to teacher accountability. I'm 100% for it. I'm not even against standardized tests to make sure students are learning. That said, by all the information I can gather, NCLB is doing squat to actually improve education.

What we need is not more centralized planning. What we need is the government stop trying to control every public school the country. If we must have the government involved in education, then the government needs to simply attach a set amount of money to each student and let the schools compete for it. And then let parents choose the school their child attends without the government regulating where a child may go to school.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2008, 03:09:50 AM »
So you would not have a problem with 50 NCLB's managed at the state level?

By the way the investors are the local taxpayers who pay the majority of costs for local school districts. Do they deserve a fair ROI?


Universe Prince

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2008, 03:10:15 AM »

California charter schools are exempt from the "highly qualified" NCLB rule.


And that changes the news story in what way?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 03:13:13 AM »
Huyck taught at a California Charter School

Universe Prince

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2008, 03:27:59 AM »

So you would not have a problem with 50 NCLB's managed at the state level?


That would depend on the laws. Not sure I would trust the Department of Education in my state to run such a program regardless of the law.


By the way the investors are the local taxpayers who pay the majority of costs for local school districts. Do they deserve a fair ROI?


They deserve to have their money spent educating children not running bureaucracies. Here where I live, schools are being built all over, with the finest of accessories and they look really nice. But we apparently have trouble scraping up enough funds to buy books for the all the students. Yes, that's right, books. Is that a fair ROI? I'm thinking it is not. When the state Department of Education here got a whole bunch of extra federal funds because our school system was ranked as one of the worst in the country, our Department of Education celebrated. Seems to me they ought to have been ashamed not proud.

As best I can determine, NCLB is not providing a fair "return" on "investment". If the desired result is a fair "return" on "investment", then it seems to me we need to allow the parents more choice on where the "investment" goes and let schools find the way that works best for their students as individuals, rather than some top down one-size-fits-all plan that treats students as a dehumanized mass that should be made to perform on cue.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2008, 03:42:46 AM »

Huyck taught at a California Charter School


No way! Really? Oh gosh! I guess the article is a lie then. This part too:

      Yet when Mr. Goldenkranz became principal in September 2005, he was informed by the Santa Cruz County Office of Education that, as he recalled in a recent interview, ?in no uncertain terms, we had to develop a path to compliance with N.C.L.B.? Once the teachers were certified, Pacific Collegiate itself would have to pay $6,000 per teacher to the state for their enrollment in a program devised to improve retention of new faculty members.

Mr. Goldenkranz had Pacific Collegiate?s lawyers poke for any loopholes. The word came back from the county. If Pacific Collegiate failed to have every one of its supposedly unqualified teachers enrolled in a certification program within two years, it would risk losing its charter to operate or its stream of public financing.

Under California law, a teacher must successfully complete a certification program to fulfill the mandate of No Child Left Behind that there be a ?highly qualified? instructor in every classroom. Marilyn Errett, an administrator with the state Commission on Teacher Credentialing, said California did offer a fast-track route for experienced teachers in the core subjects of English, science and math, as well as a path that combined a teaching internship with 100 hours of college course work.
      

I wonder if the New York Times editors realized the whole story was completely fake. Then again, maybe it isn't. Do you think I'm making this up? Maybe that I hacked the New York Times website and put up a fake story? Well, I didn't. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. Okay, so Huyck taught at a charter school. Apparently the story happened anyway. So sorry, not my fault. And anyway, if Huyck had worked at a non-charter school, the story would probably not be a whole lot different. So I find your objection weak at best.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2008, 03:48:52 AM »
The fact is California charter schools are exempt from that provision of the nclb. School districts cn set their own standards. Nclb is being blamed for actions they did not take. Huyck did not leave because of rules out of DC.


And no i didn't imply you wrote or altered the times article. It isn't sarcastic enough for your style.


Universe Prince

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2008, 04:05:58 AM »

The fact is California charter schools are exempt from that provision of the nclb. School districts cn set their own standards. Nclb is being blamed for actions they did not take. Huyck did not leave because of rules out of DC.


So no teachers in ordinary public schools have to worry about these sort of mandated classes? Well, that's good to... wait, you didn't say that? Oh. Well, then I fail to see why NCLB should not be criticized over such a thing.


And no i didn't imply you wrote or altered the times article. It isn't sarcastic enough for your style.


Thanks for noticing.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2008, 04:15:24 AM »
Quote
So no teachers in ordinary public schools have to worry about these sort of mandated classes? Well, that's good to... wait, you didn't say that?

Exactly.

Huyck was not forced out because of NCLB rules.


Universe Prince

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2008, 05:19:19 AM »

Huyck was not forced out because of NCLB rules.


Of course he wasn't forced out. He chose to change jobs. But the pressure was on because of a California law that was an attempt to comply with the NCLB mandate for "highly qualified" teachers in every classroom. So let's not act like NCLB has nothing to do with this.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

hnumpah

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2008, 09:30:07 AM »
Quote
...The way the system is being organized and operated today...with all the data collecting, business tactic processes, assessments given more than instruction, not to mention lack of funding to train teachers as promised by the NCLB act....the system is failing, not the teachers/teaching.

The child who can't make that 'grade' in a regular classroom is sent through a referral process then tested for special education. In the past, those children who COULD NOT learn due to diagnosed learning disabilities were helped with special education classes. Now, those children are expected to make the grade along with all the other kids. That's just not reality. My god...we are not saying that we don't want to 'GIVE THEM A CHANCE".....OR that they can't learn.....

But as it is now, those children who need help are not placed, not qualifiying into special programs and are simply not serviced. = they are left behind.
The way it is today all children expected to do the exact same on tests scores..be damned their abilities. THAT'S what is wrong with the act...not the high standard of teaching or the programs provided. I love the new programs. I am one of the advocates of the NCLB provisions...."Reading First" schoosl...etc.
 Lawsuits have forced school systems to focus more on the life of the system as opposed to the needs of the children. ..but at what cost?
To require/demand that EVERY single child read at the 5th grade level is actually not a bad idea....but the punitive actionst that are given to the schools/teachers who dont' make that happen is unfair and frankly doing more to reverse the very idea of leaving no child behind. That's why this has to change...

I wasn't really that interested in this discussion at first because I don't have kids. It's not that I'm not concerned about the quality of education today - I live in a neighborhood full of kids, of all ages, and have several schools within a couple of miles of the house. I have noticed, the last few years, that whenever I get a chance to talk to younger people about, oh, let's say general subjects they should have learned in school, a large proportion of them don't seem to 'know' what you might have expected someone that age to have learned by their age, say, even twenty years ago. That's a mild way of saying it seems like people are getting dumber.

I think I can understand a lot of what Cynthia is complaining about. It is unreasonable to expect every child of a certain age - say 10, about the age of the average fifth grader - to progress at the same rate, and be at the same level. On average, most should be able to pass basic reading, math, science, et cetera, tests for their grade level. Some will score higher ( the A and B students), some average (the C students), some below average (the D students), and some will fail (the F students). (That may not be the grading system your schools use, but that's what the schools I went to used back in my day.)

The students who couldn't (or wouldn't) keep up, who slipped into the lower C average or to a D, were given extra time, usually in a remedial class. If they failed, they were held back a year to go through that class level again, until they could pass the material. Students who were ahead of their class could be moved to a more advanced class - not the next grade level, necessarily, but a class in their grade level that covered more advanced material than the basics.

Students who somehow passed to the next grade but who were found unable to do the work at that grade level once they started could be put back into the previous grade level. I would imagine there was some system to track this, so the school system could keep tabs on the teachers and be sure they weren't just passing students to get rid of them, or to keep their numbers up.

It wasn't a bad reflection on the teacher back then to go to the administration and tell them student X just could not keep up with the classwork and needed to be placed in a remedial class. Back then, before ADD, ADHD and Ritalin became well known, it was understood that some kids were going to have more trouble learning the material than others, and more trouble keeping up with their grade level, and the teachers and administrators were able to exercise several different options to try and help them.

I've heard a lot of the same complaints Cynthia has from several others. Teachers are 'teaching to the test' in order to have enough of their students pass the FCAT (Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test) to keep their percentages up and keep their jobs. Students are learning more by rote, rather than learning problem solving skills. Students who have no business being passed on to the next level are being passed. It's on the news and in the papers.

In the meantime, America is losing - and in some cases, has already lost - it's place as the world leader in several different technologies. I read in the paper the other day that the Army is having to accept more and more recruits who don't have high school diplomas.

Our education system seems to be broken. NCLB doesn't seem to be fixing it, if it is forcing teachers to 'teach to the test' and fudge their numbers in order to keep their jobs. That's not quality control. Maybe I just got lucky and managed to spend my school years in an exceptional system, but it seems to me it worked just fine. Teachers were free to try to help their students get the education they needed without fear that they could be dismissed for referring a student to remedial classes, or even holding a student back because he could not handle the material; at the same time, teachers who weren't doing their jobs (by passing students to the next level who shouldn't have been passed, ignoring problems and having higher than normal failure rates) were weeded out by the system.

And the students learned. It seems to me that's the bottom line.
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BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2008, 09:50:47 AM »
Are teachers cheating by teaching to the test?

To whose benefit?

Amianthus

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2008, 10:11:19 AM »
Are teachers cheating by teaching to the test?

Yes.

To whose benefit?

Their own.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

hnumpah

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2008, 10:23:40 AM »
Quote
Are teachers cheating by teaching to the test?

Are they doing their students any good by concentrating on making sure they can answer the test questions and not much else?

Let's say you have 20 students in a class. Now (just as an example), let's say 10 of them learn the material easily enough that they aren't going to have any problem passing the test; 5 of them need a bit more instruction in order to be able to pass; 3 are going to need considerably more help; and 2 are going to need a lot of help. But they all have to pass, so instead of getting the first 15 up to passing level, and being able to spend more time teaching them other things like critical reasoning, problem solving, maybe even some advanced subjects, the teacher is stuck spending more time on the other 5 to be sure they can pass the material, at the expense of taking time away from the students who could be going on to something else. I'm not saying abandon the 5 who are having problems; I'm saying there should be no penalty imposed upon the teacher if s/he makes sure they get placed into a remedial class with another teacher who specializes in working with students who need more help. It's not a quality control issue, where the teacher is somehow defective for recognizing that those 5 students need extra help and could be holding back the rest of the class; it's that the students themselves are the problem, and the teacher is trying to find a solution that will not drag the rest of the class down to their pace or their learning level.

Quote
To whose benefit?

Certainly not the students. They aren't the ones looking out for their jobs.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2008, 04:02:00 PM »
You keep bringing back the punitive portions of the act. Seems to me it is only punitive to those who fail to meet the goals. And the goals don't seem outrageous. 5th grade reading in 5th grade. Now if they were testing for 9th grade reading and calling it a 5th grade standard then you would have a point but i haven't heard that claim. I do hear a lot of excuses. Like lack of training for professionals who by definition should come into the field trained.



We came into the system trained, BT. The NCLB act has mandated that we have more training. . . I agree, why should we have to go through such training again. Then pull someone off the street, train them, and put them into the classroom. No need to go to college.


You don't seem to understand the point on the "punitive" actions. If a child simply can not read at a fifth grade level (a special needs child), that doesn't seem to matter to the NCLB. School are punished. Have you been in the classroom, BT? Have you taught school?


I didn't say that the NCLB is completey unreasonable. I actually welcome the training. We are learning new approaches to teaching all the time. But the fact that we lose "points" for one child who does not read at grade level ....EVEN one child, that isn't fair.