Author Topic: Some Political Ruminations  (Read 12005 times)

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Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2008, 04:09:18 PM »
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...The way the system is being organized and operated today...with all the data collecting, business tactic processes, assessments given more than instruction, not to mention lack of funding to train teachers as promised by the NCLB act....the system is failing, not the teachers/teaching.

The child who can't make that 'grade' in a regular classroom is sent through a referral process then tested for special education. In the past, those children who COULD NOT learn due to diagnosed learning disabilities were helped with special education classes. Now, those children are expected to make the grade along with all the other kids. That's just not reality. My god...we are not saying that we don't want to 'GIVE THEM A CHANCE".....OR that they can't learn.....

But as it is now, those children who need help are not placed, not qualifiying into special programs and are simply not serviced. = they are left behind.
The way it is today all children expected to do the exact same on tests scores..be damned their abilities. THAT'S what is wrong with the act...not the high standard of teaching or the programs provided. I love the new programs. I am one of the advocates of the NCLB provisions...."Reading First" schoosl...etc.
 Lawsuits have forced school systems to focus more on the life of the system as opposed to the needs of the children. ..but at what cost?
To require/demand that EVERY single child read at the 5th grade level is actually not a bad idea....but the punitive actionst that are given to the schools/teachers who dont' make that happen is unfair and frankly doing more to reverse the very idea of leaving no child behind. That's why this has to change...

I wasn't really that interested in this discussion at first because I don't have kids. It's not that I'm not concerned about the quality of education today - I live in a neighborhood full of kids, of all ages, and have several schools within a couple of miles of the house. I have noticed, the last few years, that whenever I get a chance to talk to younger people about, oh, let's say general subjects they should have learned in school, a large proportion of them don't seem to 'know' what you might have expected someone that age to have learned by their age, say, even twenty years ago. That's a mild way of saying it seems like people are getting dumber.

I think I can understand a lot of what Cynthia is complaining about. It is unreasonable to expect every child of a certain age - say 10, about the age of the average fifth grader - to progress at the same rate, and be at the same level. On average, most should be able to pass basic reading, math, science, et cetera, tests for their grade level. Some will score higher ( the A and B students), some average (the C students), some below average (the D students), and some will fail (the F students). (That may not be the grading system your schools use, but that's what the schools I went to used back in my day.)

The students who couldn't (or wouldn't) keep up, who slipped into the lower C average or to a D, were given extra time, usually in a remedial class. If they failed, they were held back a year to go through that class level again, until they could pass the material. Students who were ahead of their class could be moved to a more advanced class - not the next grade level, necessarily, but a class in their grade level that covered more advanced material than the basics.

Students who somehow passed to the next grade but who were found unable to do the work at that grade level once they started could be put back into the previous grade level. I would imagine there was some system to track this, so the school system could keep tabs on the teachers and be sure they weren't just passing students to get rid of them, or to keep their numbers up.

It wasn't a bad reflection on the teacher back then to go to the administration and tell them student X just could not keep up with the classwork and needed to be placed in a remedial class. Back then, before ADD, ADHD and Ritalin became well known, it was understood that some kids were going to have more trouble learning the material than others, and more trouble keeping up with their grade level, and the teachers and administrators were able to exercise several different options to try and help them.

I've heard a lot of the same complaints Cynthia has from several others. Teachers are 'teaching to the test' in order to have enough of their students pass the FCAT (Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test) to keep their percentages up and keep their jobs. Students are learning more by rote, rather than learning problem solving skills. Students who have no business being passed on to the next level are being passed. It's on the news and in the papers.

In the meantime, America is losing - and in some cases, has already lost - it's place as the world leader in several different technologies. I read in the paper the other day that the Army is having to accept more and more recruits who don't have high school diplomas.

Our education system seems to be broken. NCLB doesn't seem to be fixing it, if it is forcing teachers to 'teach to the test' and fudge their numbers in order to keep their jobs. That's not quality control. Maybe I just got lucky and managed to spend my school years in an exceptional system, but it seems to me it worked just fine. Teachers were free to try to help their students get the education they needed without fear that they could be dismissed for referring a student to remedial classes, or even holding a student back because he could not handle the material; at the same time, teachers who weren't doing their jobs (by passing students to the next level who shouldn't have been passed, ignoring problems and having higher than normal failure rates) were weeded out by the system.

And the students learned. It seems to me that's the bottom line.

Spot on Hpuh. Thanks. You understand.

BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2008, 07:07:04 PM »
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You don't seem to understand the point on the "punitive" actions. If a child simply can not read at a fifth grade level (a special needs child),

There are provisions for special needs children. I don't think NCLB allows race or class to qualify as a special need however. They do consider medical reasons.




hnumpah

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2008, 07:19:59 PM »
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I don't think NCLB allows race or class to qualify as a special need however.

Who brought race or class into it?
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BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2008, 07:53:10 PM »
Cynthia brought class into it with her remarks about home environments.

hnumpah

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2008, 08:13:15 PM »
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Cynthia brought class into it with her remarks about home environments.


Looked for 'em, couldn't find 'em. Wanted to see 'em in context to see if the 'home environments' part could only be construed as some sort of class or racial thing. Could mean the kid just has parents that don't give a crap.
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Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2008, 08:44:47 PM »
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Cynthia brought class into it with her remarks about home environments.


Looked for 'em, couldn't find 'em. Wanted to see 'em in context to see if the 'home environments' part could only be construed as some sort of class or racial thing. Could mean the kid just has parents that don't give a crap.

That's what I said, if I inferred anything about home environment.

Never said anything about race, Bt.
What's that about?

Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2008, 08:57:51 PM »
Cynthia brought class into it with her remarks about home environments.

I did bring up the point about academic levels. Those children who do not make the grade.....below at least one to two grade levels in a given year are brought to a panel for support. That panel provides interventions and the teacher acts on those interventions, until about 8 weeks..then if the child can not make the grade, the child is tested and then analyzed to see if he/she qualifies for special education.

All the children in the schools are counted when it comes to the SBA test (nationally standardized test) even the specid ed. kids.

Point...the teachers/support team etc all do their best to provide what help they can for the child who is so far below level. They are usually 'diagnosed' with a learning disability.

THE NCLB doesn't care who, what, where, when...that child better read at grade level...


THUS THE PUNITIVE actions brought about against the school/district/administration. Over time--three years on probation the school has to make up those points plus some....if not.....then the school is taken over by the state. That hasn't happened to any of the schools in our district. In fact when a school goes into that mode of not meeting AYP (adequate yearly progress), then they are given provisions money and more training. The very reason a school is placed on that sort of status has a lot to do with the categories scored. Special ed. Reg. Ed. Bi-lingual mono lingual ..they are all seperate categories. Until recently special ed. students weren't counted. Now they are...thus our status of NO AYP.

It's a mess.....but the basic idea of the NCLB is actually not a bad one. Who would disagree with more up to date best practices training in any decent job? Not we.

But they bring us to our knees, humiliating those who don't meet the AYP by publishing the schools in the newspaper. It's not a positive approach to helping educate ALL THE CHILDREN ALL OF THE TIME.

It needs tweaking..that's what I have been saying all along.

I am angry with the status quo and it only gets worse instead of better.

Now, as I have said before we have done away with the areas of the curriculum that once provided the kids with a full education---- social studies, science, art, music, bilingual ed.....and replaced it with hard core scripted phonics drill  reading, "some' literature, constructivist mathematics and if we're able to give it time language arts.

10,20,30 years ago....this was not the case.

We are in a sense leaving kids behind because of the pressure to make that "grade" and make AYP.


BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2008, 10:05:51 PM »
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It needs tweaking..that's what I have been saying all along.

Thus your support for Hillary... i believe she being the one who wants to do away with NCLB.

 
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But they bring us to our knees, humiliating those who don't meet the AYP by publishing the schools in the newspaper.

Yes better to keep it all hush hush.

Plane

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2008, 10:26:03 PM »
What would work?

I like vocher systems because I beleive competition is self policing. Parents would compare schools and use the ones that appealed to them.

My Father was taught in a one room school house , the School marm was a state employee but she had a lot of autonomy and controll of the class , the class was all grades in the same room ,but the teachers task was not impossible , she taught the older grades mostly and taught them to teach the younger kids.



Where is a modern , first world ,school system being effective?  We probly don't need to invent anything .

Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2008, 11:10:40 PM »
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It needs tweaking..that's what I have been saying all along.

Thus your support for Hillary... i believe she being the one who wants to do away with NCLB.

 
Quote
But they bring us to our knees, humiliating those who don't meet the AYP by publishing the schools in the newspaper.

Yes better to keep it all hush hush.



I think if we dump the entire NCLB act, I'll be fine with that....if we tweak it as it should be reorganized and set up in the way that will help ALL children...that's ok too.


As for the humiliation of the scores being printed in the newspaper...I see nothing wrong with publishing anything in the newspaper as long as it is fair and balanced.

It's not fair and balanced as it is recorded based on false evidence of hard working teachers and students.

Thus, I repeat...the NCLB is weak and need work.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 11:33:42 PM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2008, 11:32:32 PM »
What would work?

I like vocher systems because I beleive competition is self policing. Parents would compare schools and use the ones that appealed to them.

My Father was taught in a one room school house , the School marm was a state employee but she had a lot of autonomy and controll of the class , the class was all grades in the same room ,but the teachers task was not impossible , she taught the older grades mostly and taught them to teach the younger kids.



Where is a modern , first world ,school system being effective?  We probly don't need to invent anything .


Private schools offer a lot more to families because families hold stock in the "corporation"...sort of speak.

Public schools don't have the luxuary of such things as funding  (from wealthy parent for the MOST PART) the refusal to allow students who test lower on assessments designed by the directors of the school to enter they facility to begin with, a teacher student ratio of 2/17 in each classroom. So, of course there are going to be parents who would LOVE to move their students to facilities that hold such prime qualities---if given a voucher to do so.
But we are talking about public schools, charter schools etc. Set up a voucher to attend a "better" PS then that school better be funded, equiped and ready to face the music. SO, WHY not rebuild what is already on the dock. Why not fund the public school system in ways that will give everyone involved a head start? As it is, we don't have anything to work with in order to provide a better system. We have 1/28 ratio of teacher/student, classrooms that are 30 years old or more broken down, families who don't give a damn about their children's education..why should they.....they don't have an interest $$ wise or otherwise....
Put a match to the flame and make the parents accountable in the public system might help. Make the parents pay if their child fails to pull weight. Who knows what the solution would be best. But, as it is now, parents don't have to care....so kids feel as though they don't have to care, and then we are put in the newpaper as bad apples.
You would never see that in a systme such as a private institution. WHy? Parent contribute work with and make damn sure their child follows through in the learning process.

If you think one can drop a child off at the door and expect the teacher to do all given these cirucumstances, that's not realistic nor does it help anyone----especially the child. Realistically speaking, it does take a lot more to teach children these days. We are up against parents who do drugs, single parent families, latch key kids, abused kids (sexually and emotionally), children robbed of the luxuary of being read to because the video games industry has taken strong hold....and the elements go on and on.....But, still folks like to agrue that it's all about poor teaching....poor argument. Not even close to correct. Too easy to blame and call the game on the sidelines, but people do it with such ease all the time.

As it is now, the push to make things "better" for the public schools is played out on the stage of a kind of intimidation, and humiliation with a dose of hard core NCLB  pressure to DO BETTER OR ELSE.

There are too many factors in the mix to just say

go vouchers.....I am for fixing the broken system and supporting people like myself, who loves to teach.
GOd, I would love to be able to see children experience a science experiment, or travel to the Native Pueblos around here like we used to do. I would love to see the engagment of children in the world of learning....questioning, not stressing, enjoying the life of learning. But, they too are stressed to the max. Testing has affected more than the teachers...the children are losing something precious in all of this...but no one wants to see that.

They would rather read about it in the newspaper and cry that we don't want our dirty laundry to air about....




BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2008, 11:36:24 PM »
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It's not fair and balanced as it is recorded based on false evidence of hard working teachers and students.

Why is listing schools who don't meet AYP standards unfair and unbalanced.

Either they met the requirements or they didn't. I assume schools that don't meet requirements are held to the same standards as those that do.

And if they continue to fail, the state intervenes. Why is that a bad idea? Isn't it about the children?


Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2008, 11:45:46 PM »
Either they met the requirements or they didn't. I assume schools that don't meet requirements are held to the same standards as those that do.

Meeting standards is one thing.....legitimately that is.

I've told you before, BT.....It goes like this; to hold a child who clearly can not make that grade level benchmark--no matter how hard a system tries...to the exact same standard as all other 3, 4, 5th graders is not fair nor is it balanced in terms of calling that school a failure. The way that the system in NCLB is set up......failure is inevitable no matter how high the school scores.
For ex: This occured in our city not too long ago:
Let's say the criteria for exemplary is 90-100%. So, a High School that scores a 98%  on a nationalized test is considered "exemplary". But the next year they score 96%. They have not made AYP--adequate yearly progress!!!
SO, they are placed on probation and the school is placed in the newpaper as not meeting AYP.
what??
But, that happened in our very city a couple of years ago.
WHY?
Becuase the NCLB is broken, BT.

Not up to par.....not fair....not balanced....and yet that H.S. could do nothing...not a damn thing.
They looked like failures.
It happens all over the place.

The system has problems. That's why it's such an issue on the docket for candidates in this election.




BT

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2008, 11:52:23 PM »
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It goes like this; to hold a child who clearly can not make that grade level benchmark--no matter how hard a system tries...to the exact same standard as all other 3, 4, 5th graders is not fair nor is it balanced in terms of calling that school a failure.

Are not all schools held to the same standards. Are the rules different for urban vs rural schools? UIf not, why is it unfair to point out schools that do not make the grade.

I have no problem with tweaking the concept. I do have a problem with doing away with the requirements and the program  because teachers and administrators appear to be more concerned with their jobs than they are with the children.

Cynthia

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Re: Some Political Ruminations
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2008, 11:58:19 PM »
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It goes like this; to hold a child who clearly can not make that grade level benchmark--no matter how hard a system tries...to the exact same standard as all other 3, 4, 5th graders is not fair nor is it balanced in terms of calling that school a failure.

Are not all schools held to the same standards. Are the rules different for urban vs rural schools? UIf not, why is it unfair to point out schools that do not make the grade.

I have no problem with tweaking the concept. I do have a problem with doing away with the requirements and the program  because teachers and administrators appear to be more concerned with their jobs than they are with the children.


BT...it really appears that you have had a bias from the getgo on this issue. You seem to think negatively about the issue without hearing some of the facts.

I don't think it is wrong to publish scores, rankings etc in any publication....but, just like you, the public tends to think that it is because  teachers and administrators are more concerned with their jobs than the children.
It's difficult to get you to see that that isn't the case.

My god, man....most of the "concerned teachers" are highly  quality teachers who care more than you know about the children.