Why Does Obama's Pastor Matter?

[Cynthia]

I hardly think that the US is deliberately evil. The Iraq War was a stupid move to secure oil reserves that has resulted in nearly 4,000 dead Americans and LOTS more dead and displaced Iraqis, and many more maimed and displaced people and ruined lives. And these results are easily described as evil.

The US is number one in the minds of many Americans as the 'best country on Earth'. It has been my experience that the more a person has traveled and/or lived abroad, the less one hears this. Such travel experiences as package tours and cruises do not seem to produce this more measured view of the world, but that may be because people who like to be catered to are not of the sort than tries to delve too deeply into the ways that other cultures function.

Probably most Americans will feel most comfortable living in the US. But other countries have higher per capita income, more cultural phenomena (plays, museums, galleries, tours, historical monuments), and less materialistic people.

I always had a LOT more fun at parties with my Mexican friends than I had in the US with American friends. Mexicans are better at having fun pretty much anywhere. I have not lived in Argentina or Spain long enough to make a comparison, but I suspect that the same is true there.

A good meal in a Spanish restaurant is more enjoyable to me, as is the conversation. No one does seafood beter than the Spanish. Their tomatos and oranges outshine all others by far, and keep in mind that I live in Florida.

No one even comes close to Argentina for any sort of beef: steaks, sausages, sweetmeats, whatever. I would like to try some Argentine steak with some Kansas City barbecue sauce, though.

Then  you should come to New Mexico and enjoy a bit of the Carne and the green chili, not to mention the posole!
ha! We live in a culture that sometimes I would rather be of the "foreign persuasion". We are the "missing State". I say, keep on driving by.....don't let the wind sock hit you in the arsss...to the folks who hold such arrogance. THE rest of the USA.
But, I would still rather live in the USA than any other country in the world.

As for enjoying a particular culture of people in a party setting over another, flavor is flavor. True. Some meals/some folks just have that ability to out flavor the other. ha! The individual makes the party-- not the other way around. I have had great food and plenty of laughs at many a Persian party, but I have no desire to go past that party line.....and move into the nearest village. Of course, I am not saying you are willing to do that either...move into Mexico or Spain just because you have celebrated with flavor that pleases you. But, we can't strike blows against one culture just because they don't party harty dude. ya think?
 
Now see what you've done Micky....I am getting hungry!

[Cynthia]

<<I guess I would rather be free to wear a bit of blush....but that's just me. >>

I wonder if you realize that under Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party, the religious fundamentalists had no role in making the rules, the women of Iraq were not only free to wear lipstick, make-up, skirts and high heels, but women in headscarves were suspected of religious fundamentalism and ran the risk of attracting negative government attention.

So if you like wearing "a bit of blush," then the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party is the party for you.  It was pretty good at keeping religion out of the government.

No, I did not realize that Saddam had such a clean record. . my bad. Keep on keeping that old time religion out of the government....wow...let us all learn more from the BASparty.
Sign me up for his make-over system...oops, wait, he's dead....could had a better comb over, perhaps...ok...I am slappy happy...hoem with a cold here today....can't taste a thing. hate that.
 

[Michael Tee]

<<I don't get anywhere pointing out that America is evil - - I have to show that it's MORE evil than any other country.  Being evil today just ain't no big deal. >>

(my - - MT's - - comment that calling attention to evil conduct on the part of America no longer seems sufficient - - evil conduct by America seems to be unobjectionable unless some other country is equally or more evil.  Morality has turned competitive now - - the ultimate victory of moral relativism)

and here's sirs' response:

<<I think you can attribute that to calling any and everything that doesn't agree with your myopically skewed view of what is, is, and what the war in Iraq is supposedly all about, as being some fascist, torture-loving, Bush sychophant. >>

I'll try to translate that into English.  [still in sirs' voice] 

<<Tee, people don't take you seriously when you point out any so-called "evil" conduct on the part of America because whenever somebody disagrees with your skewed view of the situation, such as the Iraq war, you call that person a fascist, a torture-lover and a Bush sycophant.>>

Well, with all due respect, sirs, you've addressed one issue, that of the boy who cried "wolf" once too often and was not taken seriously thereafter.  Unfortunately, you are completely wrong about that issue as well, but since I wasn't raising it n the first place, I don't feel I need to respond to it in detail here; suffice to say that the frequent cries of "wolf" aren't due to the "boy's" hysteria but are the only valid response to the deeds of the pack of wolves that live near him.  And that some people understand that and know that "wolf" means  "wolf" ten times out of ten, and others live in a fantasy world, refusing or unable to believe that the country they love could in fact be inflicting a plague of wolves on the planet.

The issue that I was raising wouldn't apply to you at all, sirs - - you're living in that fantasy world of America the Good and the Beneficent, and so you don't see any of the evil at all; except of course that you are afraid of appearing totally ridiculous, and so from time to time, you make a pro forma admission that you "know that America's not perfect"  or "America has its faults, sure, but . . . " and then go on to defend just about every God-damn thing the country's done in the past 100 years.

The issue that I was raising concerns those folks who at least have enough realism in their POV to know that America does a lot of bad things.  My point to them was that that in itself ought to provoke a shit-storm of rage, shame, activism, pressure to end the abuse, etc.  However, it seems to me that we are now into some new era of public morality, in which, before it can even be admitted that there is a problem, I (or whoever else is conducting the argument) must first show that nobody else is committing the same act, or that if they are, that America is not the worst of them.  That was what I meant when I said that morality is becoming a competition.  A wrong act isn't wrong if others do it too.  A wrong act isn't wrong if others do even worse.  Moral relativism at its worst and craziest.

<<You want to call Amerikkka evil Tee, you go right ahead.....knock your socks off.>>

Translation:  Say whatever you like, I ain't lissnin and I don't give a shit.  (Who gives a shit?)

<<All the while those countries and entities volitionally performing true acts of evil enjoy your brushing right over them . . . >>

Translation:  (1)  The U.S. doesn't perform "true acts of evil."  Only the others are capable of "true acts of evil;" and (2) I shouldn't be condemning the U.S. for anything if other countries are doing something even worse.  Ridiculous.


<< . . . they'd kill you and your family in a heartbeat, and not think twice>>

I think this line wandered in from another thread.  It's usually part of the "support Amerikkka's war on "terror" because otherwise them fuckin Ay-rabs will slit your throat and your family's throats, they hate you so much.  They  hate you for your freedoms because they're Muslims."    The Great Threat from the Mysterious East.  Cue in the snake-charming music and the sounds of an Arab market.

[sirs]

<<I don't get anywhere pointing out that America is evil - - I have to show that it's MORE evil than any other country.  Being evil today just ain't no big deal. >>

<<I think you can attribute that to calling any and everything that doesn't agree with your myopically skewed view of what is, is, and what the war in Iraq is supposedly all about, as being some fascist, torture-loving, Bush sychophant. >>

Well, with all due respect, sirs, you've addressed one issue, that of the boy who cried "wolf" once too often and was not taken seriously thereafter.  Unfortunately, you are completely wrong about that issue as well, but since I wasn't raising it n the first place, I don't feel I need to respond to it in detail here; suffice to say that the frequent cries of "wolf" aren't due to the "boy's" hysteria but are the only valid response to the deeds of the pack of wolves that live near him. 

And your repetation of crying wolf simply revalidates my point.  Thank you

[Michael Tee]

<<No one even comes close to Argentina for any sort of beef: steaks, sausages, sweetmeats, whatever. I would like to try some Argentine steak with some Kansas City barbecue sauce, though.>>

Better go now, XO, while their currency is still at the bottom of the tank, it's probably one of the few decent places in the world where the American dollar still works its fabled magic.  Montevideo, too - - exact same cuisine from what I could tell.  (Visits to two parrillas and I'm already an expert on the cuisine of the region.)

Damn, now I'm hungry.  Wife left me some chili to microwave.  It's pretty good.

[Cynthia]

<<No one even comes close to Argentina for any sort of beef: steaks, sausages, sweetmeats, whatever. I would like to try some Argentine steak with some Kansas City barbecue sauce, though.>>

Better go now, XO, while their currency is still at the bottom of the tank, it's probably one of the few decent places in the world where the American dollar still works its fabled magic.  Montevideo, too - - exact same cuisine from what I could tell.  (Visits to two parrillas and I'm already an expert on the cuisine of the region.)

Damn, now I'm hungry.  Wife left me some chili to microwave.  It's pretty good.

Hey, Mtee,
May I ask you where in Canada you live...or do you live in Canada?
Not that it's a big deal....I guess I want to know if you are involved in discussions in the Canadian 3DHS boards, as well. Do they have such a thing? Do you debate in your own country?
Just curious.
Cindy

[Plane]

<<That Iranian exicutions are frequent and are usually done by slow hanging for strangulation strikes me as a sort of wild west sort of justice  . . . >>

That's very true, but our original comparison was not between governments but between AUDIENCES.  You wanted to know if I felt that Pat Robertson's audience was more "civilized" than Persian audiences.  Pat Robertson is a man who advocates assassination of foreign leaders as politics, invasion of other countries as foreign policy and believes that Hurricane Katrina was God's way of punishing America for its tolerance of homosexuality.  His followers probably still drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flags flying and I've never once heard him speak out against torture.  I have no evidence to indicate that his audience is any more appalled by tortures that are worse than slow strangulation and I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to which audience is more evil and vicious than the other.   Civilization is mainly developed by experience in living together in units larger than a mere family or tribe and they sure as hell have had a lot more experience of that than the Anglo-Saxons can lay claim to.

You can imply I am racist , disparage my cultural heritage and national identity , you can call me cruel and stupid , but now you're talking down my truck?
That is just too much.
Is nothing sacred to you?

[Plane]

 Civilization is mainly developed by experience in living together in units larger than a mere family or tribe and they sure as hell have had a lot more experience of that than the Anglo-Saxons can lay claim to.

I would like to challenge this premise.

The USA is heir to all te traditios in the world , none are unavailible.

But to narrow it down to "Western " civilisation the factor of anchientness is not inferior in any way because we trace cultural influence not only through the anchient Celt and Germanic tradition but the anchient Roman , Greek , Turk , Persian and Egyptian influence that shaped anchient Europe in waves of conquest and re-conquest.

Linguists know why "Deva" in India and "Devine" in England have such simular sound and meaning , the root language was old when Egypt was founded and was spread across all of Europe  and half of  Asia retaining many grammar habts and common words the whole time.

The premise that one culture is old and another is young is a rootless theroy of no effect , the individual is the unit of Humanity and one child o the most anchient tradition can be a savage .

Whether you beleive in Evoution or Genisis there is no  evidence that one culture has fewer generations since Lucy (Eve) than any other.

[Michael Tee]

Hey, Mtee,
May I ask you where in Canada you live...or do you live in Canada?
Not that it's a big deal....I guess I want to know if you are involved in discussions in the Canadian 3DHS boards, as well. Do they have such a thing? Do you debate in your own country?
Just curious.
Cindy
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Hi, Cindy,
I live in Toronto, Ontario, been here all my life and married to a Toronto girl.

I have a lot of family who migrated to the U.S., mostly in Detroit originally, but now spread all over the country, east to west and north to south. 

I'm sure there are lots of newsgroups or BBS devoted to Canadian politics but you have to realize that Canadian politics are extremely boring.   I never bothered with them.  I much prefer to follow American politics - - it's like watching the Jerry Springer show in continuous re-runs.  The characters are hilarious and it tends to get quite dramatic at times. 

[Plane]

I'm sure there are lots of newsgroups or BBS devoted to Canadian politics but you have to realize that Canadian politics are extremely boring.   I never bothered with them.  I much prefer to follow American politics - - it's like watching the Jerry Springer show in continuous re-runs.  The characters are hilarious and it tends to get quite dramatic at times. 

Yep

He groks US

[Cynthia]

Hey, Mtee,
May I ask you where in Canada you live...or do you live in Canada?
Not that it's a big deal....I guess I want to know if you are involved in discussions in the Canadian 3DHS boards, as well. Do they have such a thing? Do you debate in your own country?
Just curious.
Cindy
==========================================================================
Hi, Cindy,
I live in Toronto, Ontario, been here all my life and married to a Toronto girl.

I have a lot of family who migrated to the U.S., mostly in Detroit originally, but now spread all over the country, east to west and north to south. 

I'm sure there are lots of newsgroups or BBS devoted to Canadian politics but you have to realize that Canadian politics are extremely boring.   I never bothered with them.  I much prefer to follow American politics - - it's like watching the Jerry Springer show in continuous re-runs.  The characters are hilarious and it tends to get quite dramatic at times. 

Well, thank ya! I was curious.
I suppose Canadian politics is certainly boring compared to this circus. ha!  I have to admit it's like a three ringer around this nation, sometimes.

[Michael Tee]

Any time you have a country run by mature, responsible, sane and intelligent men and women, it's bound to be dull, unfortunately.  America can dream, and sometimes it dreams big, and that's where the trouble starts.  Dreamers aren't always thinkers, politicians aren't always honest and conmen are always attracted to dreamers.

[Cynthia]

I still think that Condi is  intelligent, mature, sane and responsible.. Perhaps they aren't ALL "trouble" on this American political stage. What makes yours so intelligent, sane, mature, etc?  Just curious. By the way, nice to meet you. I enjoy meeting all the folks on this board. Have known a few for a long time. I feel like a mama hen round here....fluffin' me wings.

[Xavier_Onassis]

still think that Condi is  intelligent, mature, sane and responsible.. Perhaps they aren't ALL "trouble" on this American political stage. What makes yours so intelligent, sane, mature, etc?  Just curious. By the way, nice to meet you. I enjoy meeting all the folks on this board. Have known a few for a long time. I feel like a mama hen round here....fluffin' me wings.
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Condi, left to her own devices, might be all these things, but she is first and foremost loyal to Juniorbush, and therefore her actions are as intelligent, sane and mature as his are.

Which they aren't, hence the "before the smoking gun becomes a mushroom cloud" statement, which was just unwarranted scaremongering

[Cynthia]

"Condi, left to her own devices, might be all these things, "

.....which was my point XO. M-tee claims that he lives in a country where POLITICAL individuals are all of those things. I was just trying to make a point that given the circumstances....so is she as an individual sans the idiot Bush. I agree he's the clown of the town....shame, he may have done so much damage to this country...but my biggest gripe is the NCLB act....and Kennedy had his liberal head in that pot, as well.

So, who knows....we'll see how things improve.