Author Topic: The Not So "Infinite" Pie  (Read 6349 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2008, 06:24:50 PM »
Yep, yep.......and just think, things could be so much worse, if we adopted a Socialist economy/government/agenda

whew.....dodged one there

A simpleton statement.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27077
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2008, 06:31:09 PM »
Yea, yea....we righties apparently can't do nuance, while everything apparently requires it          ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2008, 06:36:21 PM »
Living within your means does not mean that you do not borrow or use credit.

It means that you do not exceed a level of debt that you can afford.

_______________________________________________________________-

I think it`s great we`re talking about this
I tried many times ,but it never goes anywhere
what i focus on is that`s it`s part of our culture to not worry about debt.
ex. ifi say I can`t buy that now I`m broke
the most common answer WILL be "charge it"
very few will back off .
hopefully now people will stop saying charge it.
I still use a real computer monitor
people bug me for not using flat screen
folks think it crazy for me to wait for something to break to replace than when it`s fashionable



People say to "charge it" because they make money off of it kimba.

Associates who work at Target, Sears, Kohl's, etc. are encouraged either through financial incentives or through a quota system to talk customers into applying for high rate unsecured credit (credit cards). Most consumers don't understand what the Prime Rate is or how annual fees and penalty fees work. WHat they do understand is that they'll get 10% or 15% off with their purchase today. It is a sale, just like a television or car salesman. Only you're signing up for an unsecured loan often at ghastly percentages between 12 and 23% (rates most of us would never accept on a secured loan).

Having said that, the liability works both ways. The lenders aren't 100% to blame for the current credit crunch. Though, they certainly loosed the reigns quite a bit and are feeling the pinch because of it. Most lenders never want physical property. In other words, they have no desire to reclaim your home or your computer. Such assets are a real pain in the ass for most lenders (well, maybe not Knuckles and Vinny). So they are often willing to work with consolidation companies or even the individual to come to an agreement.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2008, 06:39:13 PM »
Yea, yea....we righties apparently can't do nuance, while everything apparently requires it          ::)

I didn't say you needed nuance. You need something resembling an argument with supported facts. Like data or reasonable logic.

Any idiot can say "Thank God we didn't adopt X or things would've been much worse."

There's nothing to debate there. That's like having a conversation with your ink pen.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7904
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2008, 06:47:33 PM »
funny you should say computer
my ex tried to get a loan and put her computer as a liquid asset
the loan agent said No
despite how much we paid for them
no computer has value
you can sell them at ebay
but the resale is hardly worth it
I never sell mine
I give them away or upgrade them to usable standards

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27077
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2008, 07:24:29 PM »
Yea, yea....we righties apparently can't do nuance, while everything apparently requires it          ::)

I didn't say you needed nuance. You need something resembling an argument with supported facts. Like data or reasonable logic.

Your problem here Js, is that they have been brought out, in reasoned format.  You simply don't want to acknowledge it.  Our system of government and economic model have prompted this little country to become the superpower it is today, in the matter of a mere 230+yrs.  That's far shorter a period of time than any other country.  the middle east is STILL operating in 3rd world mode, in many areas.  Point being, that despite all this supposed negative ramifications of capitalism, it combined with the freedoms we hold dear in this country, as outlined in our consitution, are the envy of so many, that they have to come up with all sorts of demeaning stats and disortions in order to try and discredit it, all the while ignoring the power that this country has become precisely because of capitalism coupled with our constitution.

Socialism & Liberalism is simply "feel-good" economics.  Well intentioned, but fatally flawed in so many ways, and demonstrated to be a failure nearly everytime it was tried. 

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Rich

  • Guest
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2008, 09:10:40 PM »
>>Obviously photos from the My Lai massacre, Pinochet's torture chambers, South Africa's apartheid state, or modern Israel could be shown as a counterpoint to whatever vague notion Rich has invented. I'm not sure I see the point though.<<

Riiiight. Never mind Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Kim Jon Il ... 60-70 million dead?

I didn't invent that genius.

But hey, tell us how wonderful Communism is if only people like you were in charge.

<chuckle>

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16138
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2008, 09:16:28 PM »
Quote
It is the wealthiest who have been served the best, as always.

So what?

Why should you have a claim to their wealth. I don't have a claim to yours.


kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7904
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2008, 09:19:53 PM »
come to think it what place did practice communism?
not the varients we know about
ex. soviet union was socialist not communist
china was marxist
these are varients
it`s not really communism
I`m not so sure karl would approve

Rich

  • Guest
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2008, 09:21:03 PM »
>>ex. soviet union was socialist not communist<<

huh?

Source??

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 09:34:44 PM »
huh?

Source??

What's in a name?

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

They were socialist, not communist.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7904
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 09:40:11 PM »
wouldn`t true communism require no money?
the whole setup of all these supposed communist places are all wrong.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 11:56:31 PM »

1. America's median hourly wage is barely higher than it was 35 years ago, adjusted for inflation.
2. The income of a man in his 30s is now 12 percent below that of a man his age three decades ago.
3. Most women streamed into the work force in the 1970s less because new professional opportunities opened up to them than because they had to prop up family incomes.
4. The typical American now works more each year than he or she did three decades ago. Americans became veritable workaholics, putting in 350 more hours a year than the average European, more even than the notoriously industrious Japanese.


It should be pointed out that #3 and #4 have done nothing but destroy the families of this country. And why? To keep up with the real wages from the early 1970's. Nice.

Look at this report on education by UNICEF. Notice Figure 1.3c Percentage of children age 15 reporting less than 10 books in the home. And then look at the combined table in Figure 1.3. Notice how well Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Finland do. Notice how poorly the U.S. does.

Look at Figure 2.0 the Health and Safety of children and notice the top 5 are: Sweden, Iceland, Netherlands, Finland, and Denmark. The United States is last. The factors are infant mortality, low birth weights, immunizations, and accidental deaths.

In actual education achievement, once again the U.S. is firmly behind Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada, Germany, Ireland, Poland, and Belgium.

The entire report makes for an interesting read and one can see just one of the areas where the United States is falling way behind and has been for years. But...as long as the top 5% gets wealthier, that's all that matters - right?

EDIT: Wha? This is not what I intended to post. I made a mistake somewhere.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 12:57:42 AM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2008, 11:58:18 PM »
1. America's median hourly wage is barely higher than it was 35 years ago, adjusted for inflation.
2. The income of a man in his 30s is now 12 percent below that of a man his age three decades ago.
3. Most women streamed into the work force in the 1970s less because new professional opportunities opened up to them than because they had to prop up family incomes.



Note that in 35 years the Workforce doubled almost with the introduction of so many women into the workforce, and more than doubbled counting the addition of Women and the population increase.

Yet the median wage has remained stable over this long priod in which about twice as many people share it?

How can you continue to think that the Economy is Finite when you also know facts like these?

For  the  economy to be finite it must have a finite size , no?
But there is no real finite size ,the real size of the economy is in constant flux and depends on the number of participants , if it were a finite amount, the participants would divide the economy an the share of each would diminish as the number of participants grew.

As you have ponted out , this is not the case.

You already know that I don't consider the Economy Infinate any more than you do , I hope , because I don't want to cover that ground again if I don't have to.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The Not So "Infinite" Pie
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 12:08:20 AM »
February 13, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
Totally Spent
By ROBERT B. REICH
Berkeley, Calif.

WE?RE sliding into recession, or worse, and Washington is turning to the normal remedies for economic downturns. But the normal remedies are not likely to work this time, because this isn?t a normal downturn.

The problem lies deeper. It is the culmination of three decades during which American consumers have spent beyond their means. That era is now coming to an end. Consumers have run out of ways to keep the spending binge going.

Don't panic Mr. Reich.

Our country has a Credit crunch every dozen or so years and a recession  economy just about as often , nothing new is happening , this is just an new combination of familiar factors.

Nothing unprecidented is happening, this "crisis " will present difficulty in ways that people older than thirty should remember.