Haditha is on Frountline

[Xavier_Onassis]

So, how do you propose to exterminate one billion Muslims?

I think concentration camps and Zyklon-B are out. Effective, but the press was all over that one the last time it was tried. I imagine a billion Islamofascists might take up rather a lot of space, but they could keep everyone else in soap or a goodly while. Which one of you saviors of humanity gets dibs on the silver and gold fillings?

[Rich]

You really are limited aren't you.

As for me, I HOPE Muslim's can CHANGE. The nasty ones that is. The 100 million or so who want to return to the 17th century. You know the one's. You've seen them on video tape during some rather nasty things. Oh, that's right, that doesn't bother you because it's not happening to YOU.

So let's all HOPE that Barack Hussein Obama can heal the souls of those people, as well as people like BO.

[Cynthia]

So, how do you propose to exterminate one billion Muslims?

I think concentration camps and Zyklon-B are out. Effective, but the press was all over that one the last time it was tried. I imagine a billion Islamofascists might take up rather a lot of space, but they could keep everyone else in soap or a goodly while. Which one of you saviors of humanity gets dibs on the silver and gold fillings?

Geezzz ...you guys sure are passionate about your argument, eh?
Fillings, Islamofascists etc.
I do think that we as Americans are frustrated with being "attacked" on our soil 9-11. First of all.
SEcond of all....we are pissed off that we couldn't prevent that attack...so what do we do?
We attack and get more pissed off than ever before. My point?
You guys are so angry at one another and ready so poke out eyeballs that you aren't focused on what is important in this discussion.


"The 100 million or so who want to return to the 17th century."
Rich is right on one level....but there is no 'RETURN' to the 17th century....they never LEFT IT.

So, we are fighting a battle with guns, while the other side is hacking away with knives...and doing so quite well. But, Xavier's point is well taken because we shouldn't have tried to fight off those with knives to begin with. Overkill....this war has only been overkill ...and no solution worth salt has been really achieved.

So, we fight. We argue...and we hate....

I say stop the bitching and find a middle ground. Find a solution that would make Americans proud...not the way Bush tried to do.....slow the battering and reduce the insults here. PRovide more concrete formulas for change....as intelligent men.....XO and RichPO.

[Rich]

>>Rich is right on one level....but there is no 'RETURN' to the 17th century....they never LEFT IT.

I am? 

Let me explain something to you. I appreciate your intentions. I really do. However, there is no middle ground with someone like BO or Mike. None. I think you can see that. I have often had discussions with the sane democrats in this forum in the past. Chickencounter for one. Crocat for another. Even domer and I have discussed things without ranker. I'm sure there are others, but the point is that because of people like BO and Mike, it makes it next to impossible to have a rational discussion with any democrat in here. They hear me say things to BO and Mike and assume I'm speaking about them too. I'm not, I'm speaking to those two in the manner they deserve. Come on now Cynthia, do I really need to get along with people who call me a Nazi and insinuate I'd like to put people in concentration camps and pull out their teeth? Should I show respect to a man who says the most hateful things about my country and it's citezens on a daily basis? These people say those things and far worse referring to ALL Republicans. I've never done that. I refer to liberals, and I've always made a distinction. Although the distinction is narrowing, it's still there. Sorry, but there's no reason to treat them any different than they deserve.

I've said it before, we're headed for trouble in this country. Sooner or later people are going to get feed up enough about being called racist and Nazis and fascists for no reason other than for political gain, and then they're going to do domething about it.

[Xavier_Onassis]

As for me, I HOPE Muslim's can CHANGE. The nasty ones that is. The 100 million or so who want to return to the 17th century. You know the one's. You've seen them on video tape during some rather nasty things. Oh, that's right, that doesn't bother you because it's not happening to YOU.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you only want to exterminate 100 million people instead of a billion.

This would be easy. Every American can take twofriends and together they can go out and off one bad Muslim.

The problem is that the families of each bad Muslim will not like us for dong this, and they might turn against us, just as perhaps your mother or wife or son might not appreciate you being killed by three weird foreigners.

Should we kill our Muslim on the spot, or should we try to make it look like a suicide, heart condition, or traffic accident?

My guess is that your message of HOPE that people who don't speak your language and know nothing about you will come to agree with you might be even less effective than Obama's message of HOPE to people who he can communicate with, and you will doubtless prefer John McCain's message of more weapons and soldiers and wars.

I am HOPING that no one needs to kill anyone.

You make it sound like evil Muslims have tried to kill you. Is this true? Is there something you might want to share with the class? Or is your paranoid delusion solely the result of overdosing on Israeli and wingnut propaganda?

[Plane]

Saddam had Abu Nidal on staff, smuggling in a few hundred pounds of wepon doesn't seem like too much of a challenge for that sort of a staff.

=======================
Okay. Mr Smarty-pants, why didn't he just smuggle in some of his nonexistent atomic weapons, weaponized anthrax and/or smallpox, poison gas or nerve agents and wipe out Juniorbush on the spot, since it was so easy?

The fact is that it isn't at all easy to do this, and Saddam did not have the means OR the weapons (other than the illusory ones lurking between your ears).

He had the means and the weapons before we attacked him in 91, I don't beleive we could have kept him under the sanctions that prevented his rebuilding much longer.

Saddam had experiments going on with every sort of WMD and had brought some of them to fruition , the biggest part of the threat was that the know how was at his disposal even if the materiels weren't.

In a very crouded environment some of the poisons his people had learned to make were capable of killing thousands per pound of poison  , how were we going to get his promise to never give any to Abu Nidal?

[Rich]

>>So you only want to exterminate 100 million people instead of a billion.<<

Yeah, that would do it.

[Rich]

>>He had the means and the weapons before we attacked him in 91 ... <<

You have to ask yourself a very simple question. Why would Saddam risk war with the United States over weapons he didn't have? Was he bluffing? Was he willing to risk all his power and his very life? I doubt it. I can't believe after 91 and 9-11 that he would have any doubt we were serious. There are WMD's somewhere in Iraq. One day they're going to cause a major environmental problem.

[Xavier_Onassis]

You have to ask yourself a very simple question. Why would Saddam risk war with the United States over weapons he didn't have? Was he bluffing? Was he willing to risk all his power and his very life? I doubt it. I can't believe after 91 and 9-11 that he would have any doubt we were serious. There are WMD's somewhere in Iraq. One day they're going to cause a major environmental problem.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
R Kelly believes that he can fly.


Saddam said he had no WMD's all along. He did not think that Juniorbush would actually invade./

He wanted his neighbors to believe that there must be WMD's as a security to keep them at bay.

[The_Professor]

So, how do you propose to exterminate one billion Muslims?

I think concentration camps and Zyklon-B are out. Effective, but the press was all over that one the last time it was tried. I imagine a billion Islamofascists might take up rather a lot of space, but they could keep everyone else in soap or a goodly while. Which one of you saviors of humanity gets dibs on the silver and gold fillings?

Geezzz ...you guys sure are passionate about your argument, eh?
Fillings, Islamofascists etc.
I do think that we as Americans are frustrated with being "attacked" on our soil 9-11. First of all.
SEcond of all....we are pissed off that we couldn't prevent that attack...so what do we do?
We attack and get more pissed off than ever before. My point?
You guys are so angry at one another and ready so poke out eyeballs that you aren't focused on what is important in this discussion.


"The 100 million or so who want to return to the 17th century."
Rich is right on one level....but there is no 'RETURN' to the 17th century....they never LEFT IT.

So, we are fighting a battle with guns, while the other side is hacking away with knives...and doing so quite well. But, Xavier's point is well taken because we shouldn't have tried to fight off those with knives to begin with. Overkill....this war has only been overkill ...and no solution worth salt has been really achieved.

So, we fight. We argue...and we hate....

I say stop the bitching and find a middle ground. Find a solution that would make Americans proud...not the way Bush tried to do.....slow the battering and reduce the insults here. PRovide more concrete formulas for change....as intelligent men.....XO and RichPO.

I know the middle ground, I think. We get out of the Middle East. Lock, stock and barrel. We keep embassies there and ZIP else. Out of Saudi Arabia, Oman and on and on, including Iraq (in an organized fashion). Afghanistan doesn't count because we take all those troops we have now in Iraq, put 'em in Afghanistan, take care of the problem there BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY (if it is deemed that military means will do it otherwise we hire assassins to kill whomever we want and pay them whatever it takes)  and bring 'em back. Maybe we put 'em in Korea or wherever, but we get out of the Middle East. We tell the Isaelis to mind their manners and work out a solution or no more pesos and we then go about minding our own business.

At that point, we are free and clear. If after that, some radical in the Middle East messes with us, we apply the maximum force necessary, otherwise, we leave 'em alone. We'll continue to corrupt them anyway with our culture.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I know the middle ground, I think. We get out of the Middle East. Lock, stock and barrel. We keep embassies there and ZIP else. Out od Saudi Arabia, Oman and o n and on, including Iraq (in an organized fashion). Afghanistan doesn't count becuase we take all those troops we have now in Iraq, put 'em in Afghanistan, take care fo the problem there BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSary and bring 'em back. Maybe we put 'em in Korea or wherever, but we get out of the Middle East. We tell the Israelis to mind their manners and work out a solution or no more pesos and we then go about minding our own business.

At that point, we are free and clear. If after that, some radical in the Middle East messes with us, we apply the maximum force necessary, otherwise, we leave 'em alone. We'll continue to corrupt them anyway with our culture.
====================================================================
This seems logical. Much better than extermination a billion people or even 100,000 people.

[Rich]

Sure, pack it up and ignore the Middle East. Then make sure we can't drill for our own oil. Then ignore Europe as it burns.

Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. So what does that leave us? I know the local libtards don't have a clue when it comes to foreign policy, but professor, you know better. Ignoring Hitler didn't make him go away. Clinton ignored the problem and brought us 9-11. It would be nice if we could reason with these people but it's clear they aren't capable at this point.

Hey, maybe we should build a wall clear around the country. But then we'd be accused of being Israel, that evil Jew country. You just can't make a libtard happy these days, so why bother?

[The_Professor]

Sure, pack it up and ignore the Middle East. Then make sure we can't drill for our own oil. Then ignore Europe as it burns.

Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. So what does that leave us? I know the local libtards don't have a clue when it comes to foreign policy, but professor, you know better. Ignoring Hitler didn't make him go away. Clinton ignored the problem and brought us 9-11. It would be nice if we could reason with these people but it's clear they aren't capable at this point.

Hey, maybe we should build a wall clear around the country. But then we'd be accused of being Israel, that evil Jew country. You just can't make a libtard happy these days, so why bother?

Let's take 'em one at a time.

"Sure, pack it up and ignore the Middle East. Then make sure we can't drill for our own oil. Then ignore Europe as it burns."

We need to be self-sufficient anyway. Since we obviously are not on that road ourselves now due to politics, etc., perhaps we need to be placed in a position where we MUST be energy self-sufficent. Plus, perhaps then we can REALLY get some decent R&D on alternative energy sources like solar, geothermal, etc. Even cold fusion.

"Ignoring the problem won't make it go away. So what does that leave us? I know the local libtards don't have a clue when it comes to foreign policy, but professor, you know better. Ignoring Hitler didn't make him go away. Clinton ignored the problem and brought us 9-11. It would be nice if we could reason with these people but it's clear they aren't capable at this point."

I'm tired of this same old tired crud dealing with them. Let 'em stew amongst themselves. We're slowly getting them anyway via our culture. I'm tired of the resources we pour into that region with little to show for it. We can continue to watch them via technology and human intelligence via the Company.

"Hey, maybe we should build a wall clear around the country. But then we'd be accused of being Israel, that evil Jew country. You just can't make a libtard happy these days, so why bother?"

I'm not sure a wall will do it even along the Southern border, but I'm willing to at least try. It would certainly cost a lot less than the resources we are pouring into the Middle East.

[Cynthia]

>>Rich is right on one level....but there is no 'RETURN' to the 17th century....they never LEFT IT.

I am? 

Let me explain something to you. I appreciate your intentions. I really do. However, there is no middle ground with someone like BO or Mike. None. I think you can see that. I have often had discussions with the sane democrats in this forum in the past. Chickencounter for one. Crocat for another. Even domer and I have discussed things without ranker. I'm sure there are others, but the point is that because of people like BO and Mike, it makes it next to impossible to have a rational discussion with any democrat in here. They hear me say things to BO and Mike and assume I'm speaking about them too. I'm not, I'm speaking to those two in the manner they deserve. Come on now Cynthia, do I really need to get along with people who call me a Nazi and insinuate I'd like to put people in concentration camps and pull out their teeth? Should I show respect to a man who says the most hateful things about my country and it's citezens on a daily basis? These people say those things and far worse referring to ALL Republicans. I've never done that. I refer to liberals, and I've always made a distinction. Although the distinction is narrowing, it's still there. Sorry, but there's no reason to treat them any different than they deserve.

I've said it before, we're headed for trouble in this country. Sooner or later people are going to get feed up enough about being called racist and Nazis and fascists for no reason other than for political gain, and then they're going to do domething about it.

Rich,

Thank you for the insight into your thoughts. Really, you have offered a bit more perspective.

Sometimes, I think the people on this board tend to hurl fuel toward others --so much that it clouds up the issue and the point one is trying to make. You have cleared a lot up for me here.

I hear points on both sides. I agree with "line item" points here and there....and I can't stand to be put into a box of either a liberal or a conservative. I try to pull out pieces of the puzzle in the discussions and create logic and common sense in the scheme of things. I know they say that you can't get away from being in either box....it's like being a little bit pregnant, but I really have found a way to step back and listen to all sides.,

President Clinton dropped the ball before 9-11. Period       
Hillary has experience on the job...more so than Obama. Perhaps. But, he is popular for some reason, so perhaps there is more to the history books of the future we don't understand. Lincoln wasn't popular and look what he did.
Hillary could very well have learned something during her stay in office that we just can't analyze or understand on a deeper level. Just a thought. Doesn't mean one has to agree or fall in like wih the package.

McCain can say what we all feel......"Castro should die"? ----ok, well not a wise statement to utter in public, I admit.. .But Castro was wrong to suppress his people the way he did. Communism is a bad apple. Who would want to live in the past....except for those vintage car owners., ha!

The list goes on and on...there are bits and pieces of these issues that have to be discussed on point.   Instead of the same old rhetoric of he said he said.....liberal vs conservative with no room in the middle of the bed for stretching, why can't folks at least bash he devil in these details. Geesh....

So, I thank you and those who have taken the time to explain themselves a bit more on this board. In the old days, bitching and insults were the theme of most threads.
I agree that Micky tends to show a sense of disdain for America..big time.....but he does have passion for his beliefs and he lives here on the "gate". We have a small community here on the gate, so we have to deal with that. I have to admit I have enjoyed this place so much compared to the days of gates pastl. Why? Because of the way Xavier and Professor and Sirs, and Plane hold an intelligent discussion. That doesn't mean I have to agree wih them. You are a bit like a pitbull. I have to say. I tremble a bit when I respond to you because I don't want to have to hear those words you typed to Terra. I'll be honest, Rich.

Anyway...

I know that XO is a fantastic "thinker" as well as the Professor, and others. But to call names, Richpo doesn't solve the problem on both sides. I agree.  it just fuels the pissiness, and extinguishes the flames of points that could be made and taken to a deeper level.  Now, all we see is a swift boat of personal digs and basher tones.  I like to debate Micky and XO and Prof...and I am getting better at debating BT.ha! The reason is that those people provide something in a civil way to chew on.....think through...and politely hold room for response. I have no problem being "wrong". I have no problem with the "gift" of changing my mind. I have changed my thinking in many ways since this Iraq war began. I am allowed to think freely. THere are many people in my own world here who are so afraid to "jump ship" to the other side...that they replace logic and common sense with frozen rhetoric, when it comes to important issues.....,issues worth the chew.

You remind me a bit of Mike because of the deep and  passionate "anger" you both exude in your threads....well, ok...so what. That's ok. Hell, passion is mighty and strong if it doesn't insult, right? Nott necessarily. Insults are a way of making one's feelings known...not unlike a parent hitting a child because it only feels good on the part of the parent - in that moment. The child didn't learn a thing...except to react and hurt, and scream and hit back!

You don't have to get along with any person< Rich...and I am not saying that you should.

I would like to find out solutions for these problems in our world. I have a feeling the future generation of debaters will not bother with insults and innuendos......such things will have been a sign of times past.....instead there will be direct and viable "discussions" with direct and viable solutions to problems.

If you notice decades and decades if not centuries of debates have focused on what the person wants instead of what the person debating can give up and negotiate in order to make it work.



"Make it work, people."   Tim Gunn

[Xavier_Onassis]

I think the US can purchase oil without persistent meddling in the politics of the Middle East. I think we could have far better relations with both Cuba and Iran than we do and it would benefit all concerned. Israel could be treated in the same manner as we treat the UAE, Qatar, Bahrein or Egypt, without special aid or concessions, the same way that Denmark or the Netherlands does. Or best ally is not Israel, it is Canada, followed by the UK and Mexico. If Jesus needs to return, he can return to Israel without the help of my tax money pissed away on giant walls, free medical care and total subsidies for ultra orthodox laggards who reproduce like bunnyrabbits and work not at all. Israel has a perfect right to subsidize them, but I should not have to.

The US should try to become as self-sufficient in petroleum and energy as quickly as is humanly possible, even if it means that Big Oil does not make humongeous profits. Especially if it means this.

The US needs to exit Iraq as soon as possible. Only Iraquis can create a stable Iraq, and if we have to be there holding up a house of cards, that is just an unneded expense, as it will collapse as soon as we leave, and we will have to leave eventually. McCain's threory that we should expect to stay there for 1000 years is either stupid hyperbole or just plain stupid.

The Al Qaeda attacks were the result of the US meddling in Saudi affairs, especially sending US troops that passed around Christian missionary propaganda when their supposed mission was defense. I don't think they won a single convert, either. It was very stupid for Olebush to send them there and more stupid for Clinton and JUniorbush to keep them there. When they were moved to Qatar and Oman, it made no difference whatever, which proves they need not have been there.

WE have the potential in the US for wind, tidal, geothermal, solar, and heat differential energy. If the government needs to subsidize the research and allow devices to be built without charging patent rights, we should do this. It is what was done to develop synthetixc rubber during WWII and it worked just fine.