Author Topic: Haditha is on Frountline  (Read 14480 times)

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Cynthia

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2008, 01:44:44 AM »
Hey Fatman, tell me about you. Where are you at in terms of politics?

You mean in terms of my political beliefs?  To put it simply, I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal.  I prefer a near isolationist foreign policy but am not unaware of the importance of diplomacy, war, and detente with ideological enemies.  The Presidents that I most admired in the past century were Eisenhower and Nixon.

Fiscally conservative

Balance the budget.  We can't run on credit forever, and spending like drunken sailors is only speeding our car toward the bridge abutment.  Running a government on borrowed money is like running your household finances on payday loans.  Pare the bureaucracy to a manageable size.  There is something to the quote "The Bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy".  We don't need a special committee, council, or agency for every political whimsy that pops up.  We should demand and expect efficiency from our elected officals.

Socially Liberal

I support gay marriage/civil unions/domestic partnerships.  Though I disagree with abortion personally, and have minimal reservations as to limiting that "right", I am not of the mind that it should be banned in totality.  I believe that if you give the government an inch on anything, it will consider it a mandate to take a mile.  Thus I am not in favor of the government spreading its influence onto matters it was not originally intended for, such as UHC, gun control, medical (or recreational) marijuana.

Presidents

Eisenhower kept the Russians at bay.  Ended Korea.  Presided over an era of prosperity and peace, and the beginning of federal enforcement of civil rights.  Faced down McCarthy and his hysterics.  Nixon took over the country in its most turbulent hour since the Civil War.  Ended the Viet Nam conflict.  Established OSHA and the EPA.  Opened the door to China.  Entered into detente, which in my opinion, had more to do with the eventual collapse of the Eastern Block that Reagan.  Glasnost had its roots in detente.


Very interesting, Fatman. Thank you.

I think your views are the most unique I have read in here to date.

I tend to agree with you about Nixon. If we can go beyond the criminal misconduct issue, we see him as you have spelled forth.
Excellent post. Thank you.
 
I'm beat. SBA testing all this week. We shall see how our students test out in three weeks. For now, they are struggling to make the grade. I often wonder what it would be like to have taught in the generation of my own youth. Would we have passed such tests with flying colors? These kids are real troopers. They are hanging in there. We test everything from Rhombus to right angle and fraction to sphere, even though it's only February's end...and there are still three months of instruction left in the year.

Too bad....our students have yet to receive the instruction on fractions. Something has got to change. Bu, I doubt the country is listening.

anway....thanks Fatman.
Blessings to you. Fine bio. Fine. YOu are a unique man.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2008, 08:26:32 AM »
Nixon fled the White House in disgrace to save his pension before Vietnam ended. He lied like a rug about some 'secret plan' to win in Vietnam, and let Gerald Ford preside over the rout. Nixon could have ended Vietnam by the end 1970, but it drug out until 1976.

Reagan was just an actor they hired. He played his role well, that is about all you can say about the pitiful old doddering fool. The USSR would have collapsed of its own weight without him.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

fatman

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2008, 09:52:03 AM »
Nixon fled the White House in disgrace to save his pension before Vietnam ended. He lied like a rug about some 'secret plan' to win in Vietnam, and let Gerald Ford preside over the rout. Nixon could have ended Vietnam by the end 1970, but it drug out until 1976.

I understand that you don't like Nixon.  A lot of people don't, and I realize that my opinion is in a distinct minority.  Show me a President or member of Congress who doesn't lie like a rug.  That said, the man did a lot of good things that unfortunately, a lot of people can't see through the Watergate/Viet Nam cloud.  I can only imagine what Carter would have tried in a Chinese rapprochement, if it was anything like Iran I'm glad Nixon got it done ahead of time.  I'm not trying to minimize Watergate, those actions were wrong though no one has ever proven definitively that Nixon was aware of the break in before it occurred.  I think that the whole "secret plan" thing has been overworked by some.

At least that Congress had the balls to cut funding.

Reagan was just an actor they hired. He played his role well, that is about all you can say about the pitiful old doddering fool. The USSR would have collapsed of its own weight without him.

Reagan was also a smart politician.  He's one of the few Presidents who left office more popular than going in.  While I don't think that he single handedly brought down the USSR as some do, he was certainly a part of it.

Contrast Nixon and Reagan with Kennedy, who is probably the most overrated President, and Johnson, another President with deep character flaws who also got a few things done.

Cynthia

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2008, 10:40:35 PM »
Nixon fled the White House in disgrace to save his pension before Vietnam ended. He lied like a rug about some 'secret plan' to win in Vietnam, and let Gerald Ford preside over the rout. Nixon could have ended Vietnam by the end 1970, but it drug out until 1976.

I understand that you don't like Nixon.  A lot of people don't, and I realize that my opinion is in a distinct minority.  Show me a President or member of Congress who doesn't lie like a rug.  That said, the man did a lot of good things that unfortunately, a lot of people can't see through the Watergate/Viet Nam cloud.  I can only imagine what Carter would have tried in a Chinese rapprochement, if it was anything like Iran I'm glad Nixon got it done ahead of time.  I'm not trying to minimize Watergate, those actions were wrong though no one has ever proven definitively that Nixon was aware of the break in before it occurred.  I think that the whole "secret plan" thing has been overworked by some.

At least that Congress had the balls to cut funding.

Reagan was just an actor they hired. He played his role well, that is about all you can say about the pitiful old doddering fool. The USSR would have collapsed of its own weight without him.

Reagan was also a smart politician.  He's one of the few Presidents who left office more popular than going in.  While I don't think that he single handedly brought down the USSR as some do, he was certainly a part of it.

Contrast Nixon and Reagan with Kennedy, who is probably the most overrated President, and Johnson, another President with deep character flaws who also got a few things done.

Your views mirror those of my father's,  fatman...especially when it comes to the part about the good things  Nixon did for this country. You know, I find your thoughts a bit refreshing, even though they are out on a limb in an arena of politics. I find your comparison of Reagan and others to the administrations of Kennedy and Johnson is intriquing, indeed.

Hey...They made an opera about Nixon in China, for god's sake...What more can a politician ask for? ha!
Xavier, I find your feedback about the "man" (Reagan) and his 'other job' actor personified....a sort of cop out, frankly. Surely you mustt admit he was a great politician, if anything else..and that job began in California, as governor, in fact in the actors guild during the 50's.

Can anyone here provide more critical details about why Reagan was not a good president vs a good one? I would like to hear a bit on that.

Surely Nixon was not the most popular president to grow in the garden, but I wonder sometimes if Americans take advantage of the Nixon's extreme mistakes in office  as their chance to bitch and condemn the man for good. Interesting comments, FatMan. Interesing indeed.
I hear this conversation at my father's dinner table all the time. It's the first time I have read such sentiments in the gate lately...that is.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 10:44:28 PM by Cynthia »

Michael Tee

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2008, 10:39:48 AM »
<<Xo has been letting his hatred of Bush permeate in nearly every thread, which is also fine...but doesn't make him immune to anyone that points that out>>

This and Ami's snarky little "Let the hate flow . . . " comment are great demonstrations of a kind of deflection that basically turns the conversation around from a blistering examination of Bush's lies and crimes (starting a war based on lies to grab oil and power in the Middle East and unleashing the hell of war on millions of innocent victims) to a psychoanalysis of, of all people, XO.

The most transparently ridiculous debating tactic, but nothing too cheap or cheesey for our crypto-fascist friends.

Hatred of war can and should be extended to hatred of those who wage war deliberately and for no good reason.  For those who lie and distort and twist to justify their evil deeds.

As far as I can see, if you can't hate Bush, who the hell CAN you hate?  (Oh, of course - - I know.  Jane Fonda.  Cynthia McKinney.  Cindy Sheehan.  Real bastards like them.  THEY are the ones who are really responsible for all the pain and suffering of war.)

You know why these right-wing thugs get away with their absurd and crazy bullshit time after time after time?  Because no one challenges them on it.  No one calls them out.  People are SCARED by the "support our troops" sloganeering - - to attack Bush is to attack the war is to attack the troops is to be "unpatriotic."  And Americans are nothing if not "patriotic."

I feel good about Obama and his campaign, but I feel better about Cindy Sheehan and others who are really pointing out the nakedness of the Emperor, saying the unspeakable and ripping down the whole lying facade of the war-mongers and fascists who have America by the balls for the time being.

BT

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2008, 10:42:45 AM »
Quote
As far as I can see, if you can't hate Bush, who the hell CAN you hate?  (Oh, of course - - I know.  Jane Fonda.  Cynthia McKinney.  Cindy Sheehan.  Real bastards like them.  THEY are the ones who are really responsible for all the pain and suffering of war.)

Why hate anyone?

What's it get you?

Michael Tee

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2008, 10:48:55 AM »
<<Why hate anyone?

<<What's it get you?>>

It's a good question.  Doesn't get me anything.  But I hate the bastard.  Not as much as I hate Nazis and Hitler, but the same hatred for the same reasons.  He's the same kind of person and he caused the same kind of suffering.

Can't help hating, but it's natural and it's real and I don't believe in suppressing real emotion.  It's not healthy.  My own theory is that it's damaging to repress genuinely felt emotion.  That's why I think real Christians are really sick people.  I see these guys on TV saying they have "forgiven" their children's killers and they just turn my stomach.  They are like worms, not human beings.

Amianthus

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2008, 11:16:13 AM »
Can't help hating, but it's natural and it's real and I don't believe in suppressing real emotion.  It's not healthy.

I don't "suppress" my hate - it just doesn't exist. I feel hate when I've been personally wronged, and then just until I get out of the situation. Once I'm out, the emotion goes away; I don't carry it around with me.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Haditha is on Frontline
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2008, 11:27:04 AM »
Surely you mustt admit he was a great politician, if anything else..and that job began in California, as governor, in fact in the actors guild during the 50's.

Can anyone here provide more critical details about why Reagan was not a good president vs a good one? I would like to hear a bit on that.
========================================
 will surely admit no such thing.  was wise to the old doddering geezer from day one. Reagan was not a great politician. He was a great actor. He did have some clever handlers.

He got his start in politics when he managed to get himself elected president of the Screen Actors Guild. He had good relations with the management. Then, during the HuAC hearings, he ratted out many of his fellow actors to the investigators, and they used his testimony to intimidate other SAG members into 'confessing' every actor or director that has even a slightly leftist leaning. This resulted in getting him TV roles, and later he was hred by several right wing manufacturing lobby organizations to give something called 'the speech' to civic clubs first all over California, then all over the country. 'The speech' basically said that corporations should not be taxed at all, bcaue they pass it all on to consumers, and the government is incompetent. He never mentioned that General electric was so corrupt as to merit several officers thrown in jail for price fixing, or that Ma Bell was way behind the curve in improving services.

Eventually his handlers got him elected governor of California, where he pretty much ruined the excellent university system and suggested that it would be a good thing if the poor people who received the food that the SLA pressured the Hearsts to donate to the poor should be poisoned with ptomaine (the SLA was not going to eat the food, just some poor people who had to beg for it to eat). This was quite typical of his comments when he made off-the cuff remarks. He could read the material that was written for him very well and managed to convince most people of his sincerity (as they say in Hollywood, once you can fake sincerity, you've got it made), but when he had to wing it, everything from millionaire  Oklahoma oil Indians to the threat of extraterrestrial takeovers of the planet to his witnessing the Holocaust came spewing out: there were all just the plots of movies he'd seen and scripts he'd read, and most people didnpt even hear about the otigin of his wacko remarks.

Then his handlers decided that he should be president. They couldn't get him nominated over Ford, but in 1980, after hey had successfully wrecked Carter who trusted the lying bastard Kissinger over the Shah in ran, followed by the hostage crisis, they got the old geezer elected

nce he was elected, about twelve seconds after the inaugration, the ran crisis was over and all the hostages were released. We were supposed to believe that there were no machinations involved, but this was less convincing than the tooth fairy legend.

He destroyed unions, took the solar panels off the White House to please big oil and more than doubled the budget deficit. But he reminded people of some kindly old grandpa, and he was forgiven his treachery, his incompetence and the incredible corruption of his various secretaries, particularly those who dismantled the NLB, the Dept of nterior and oSHA.

His term was an eight year photo opportunity. He was the most incompetent president that people actually liked. All because o0f his monumental capacity to fake sincerity, and even his Altzheimers.

He does not deserve a Presidential Library, but rather a huge, Washington Momument-sized Oscar near the reflecting pond.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2008, 12:16:36 PM »
Quote
He destroyed unions, took the solar panels off the White House to please big oil and more than doubled the budget deficit. But he reminded people of some kindly old grandpa, and he was forgiven his treachery, his incompetence and the incredible corruption of his various secretaries, particularly those who dismantled the NLB, the Dept of nterior and oSHA.

Were the White house Solar panels working?

sirs

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2008, 01:17:58 PM »
It appears that within political debates, when one has little to no substance to their position, all that's left is hate to fuel their position, which doesn't require any substantive facts, or even common sense, just raw emotion.  It would appear that in some, the hate is proportional to their lack of substance
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2008, 01:40:28 PM »
<<I don't "suppress" my hate - it just doesn't exist. I feel hate when I've been personally wronged, and then just until I get out of the situation.>>

Typical pattern for someone who looks out for no. 1 and doesn't really give a shit what happens to anyone else.  The conservative way.  I wasn't raised that way and I can thank God for that every fucking day.

When I see bad guys it rankles my ass in a real personal way.  Bush didn't do anything to me or mine, but I really feel for those hundreds of thousands of Iraqis blown to pieces, crippled, tortured, mutilated all in a pointless war started by Bush and his confederates for no reason that they're willing to own up to publicly.  I hate liars and I hate murderers.  Bush is one of the worst I've seen in my lifetime.  That Hitler was a lot worse doesn't help Bush at all, IMHO.

Michael Tee

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2008, 01:54:19 PM »
<<It appears that within political debates, when one has little to no substance to their position, all that's left is hate to fuel their position, which doesn't require any substantive facts, or even common sense, just raw emotion.  It would appear that in some, the hate is proportional to their lack of substance>>

Getting pretty pathetic by now, sirs.  In every position I've taken, Bush lied, Bush stole etc., I have produced reams of facts, circumstantial evidence in the most part, but that's natural when exposing liars who won't give written confessions of lying, and always in voluminous detail.

You, having no real arguments or facts to contradict a reasoned argument based on circumstantial evidence, always resort to "zero evidence," "reading Tee leaves" and similar empty rhetoric, which of course is all you CAN do, given the weight of the circumstantial evidence against you.  So, keep on sputtering impotently about Tee, Tee the hater, Tee the man without facts, Tee the anti-American, Tee the terrorist-lover, Tee the Antichrist, whatever.  Or sometimes,for variety, XO the hater, XO the man without facts, etc.  While you keep trying to turn every issue-based argument that isn't going your way (and that means practically EVERY issue-based argument because no one is more consistently wrong than you are) into an ad hominem argument (a sure-fire confession of moral and intellectual bankruptcy) I am just going to ignore your lame-ass drivel and concentrate on what I originally came here to do, which of course was to debate issues on their merits, using the traditional debating tools of relevant facts and demonstrable logic.

sirs

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2008, 02:27:24 PM »
<<It appears that within political debates, when one has little to no substance to their position, all that's left is hate to fuel their position, which doesn't require any substantive facts, or even common sense, just raw emotion.  It would appear that in some, the hate is proportional to their lack of substance>>

In every position I've taken, Bush lied, Bush stole etc., I have produced reams of facts, circumstantial evidence in the most part, but that's natural when exposing liars who won't give written confessions of lying, and always in voluminous detail.

Actually no, you've produced realms of leftist lies & distortions, & are simply calling them "facts & circumstantial evidence".  This is made all the more pronunced that when ACTUAL facts of documents and official conclusions are provided you, refuting your repetaive asanine positions, you just proclaim they're in CYA mode.  And now it's useally coupled with some reference to fascism and/or Hitler.  Even when its Democrats and/or those who don't support Bush's "war on terror"......in other words, must fit template, must fit template.  Bush is evil, Bush stole the election, Bush lied us into war, yada, rant, blather, and don't dare try throwing any actual facts that refute that in the way.  He's evil


You, having no real arguments or facts to contradict a reasoned argument based on circumstantial evidence...

...Outside of course actual CONCLUSIVE DOCUMENTS by INVESTIGATIVE BODIES, that have made it clear that Bush didn't manipulate the intel or lie us into war, coupled with common sense.  But, yea, you just keep going right on calling it "zero evidence".  Must fit template....must fit template.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 02:36:50 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Haditha is on Frountline
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2008, 02:47:10 PM »
<<Actually no, you've produced realms of leftist lies & distortions, & are simply calling them "facts & circumstantial evidence".>>

Actually, yes:  I produced facts that constitute circumstantial evidence which in your usual pathetic and lame attempts at rebuttal you make no attempt to refute or analyze, apparently acting under the belief that by merely labelling them "leftist lies and distortions" you have successfully disposed of the issue.  Typically juvenile, but predictable.

<<...Outside of course actual CONCLUSIVE DOCUMENTS by INVESTIGATIVE BODIES, that have made it clear that Bush didn't manipulate the intel or lie us into war, coupled with common sense.  But, yea, you just keep going right on calling it "zero evidence". >>

Uh, no, actually, I DON'T call it "zero evidence," I call it a blatant whitewash.  Blatant because of the composition of the "investigative bodies" that "investigate" the activities of their friends and colleagues.  There has never been a truly independent "investigative body" authorized to investigate either 9-11 or the stolen election.  What you call "conclusive documents" are the results of friends and colleagues investigating friends and colleagues.  About as "conclusive" as the Warren Commission Report.