Haditha is on Frountline

[The_Professor]

XO: " I think the US can purchase oil without persistent meddling in the politics of the Middle East."

Ah, but I would argue that the idea is to be energy self-sufficient NOW. I am afraid that as long as we have a steady supply of oil, regardless of the source, not enough attention will be paid to R&D in REAL alternative energies.

[Stray Pooch]

I like to debate Micky and XO and Prof...and I am getting better at debating BT.ha!

I think you're getting better at debating, period.  You have posted some excellent thoughts in this thread.

[Cynthia]

I like to debate Micky and XO and Prof...and I am getting better at debating BT.ha!

I think you're getting better at debating, period.  You have posted some excellent thoughts in this thread.

 Thank you, Poochie. There are times when I am able to focus and get those "points" out. My work comes home with me these days, and there is very little time to respond to the issues. I am still learning a lot from my read here. The stay has been delightful for that reason. I went back in and tweaked a bit in the thread I posted here..
Anyway....coming from you, those words are indeed  a compliment.
Cindy

[Cynthia]

"Saddam had experiments going on with every sort of WMD and had brought some of them to fruition , the biggest part of the threat was that the know how was at his disposal even if the materiels weren't."--Plane


Well, then who is to say that if the world had waited to see those WMD come to another fruition (he had already used them once before)...who's to say that united nations would have kept him under scope and then acted on the crimes he was commiting, eventually. Instead Bush decided to attack the entire country and now look where we are.  Not popular, the evil one in the eyes of the world and all for a big strong arm of the "law" attitude.....we have in a way become the middle east's WMD.

I am not saying that the issues of the world's power monsters are settled in such a simple way---have the UN get involved. The UN? Bu, I am saying that the days of WW2 are over. I know this has probably been said before by someone....but then, why not put out a hit on Saddam and get it over with? There had to have been a better solution to this problem and fear of WMD in a country so very far away from our own.
After 9-11, we had to do something to stop terrorism on our soil. When did that equate to Saddam and his WMD?
Doesn't make sense.

[Xavier_Onassis]

After 9-11, we had to do something to stop terrorism on our soil. When did that equate to Saddam and his WMD?
Doesn't make sense.
=======================================
We were used.

Obviously. 9-11 became a pretext for the invasion of Iraq and the passing of laws allowing the government to spy on its citizens.

Juniorbush was tired of everyone saying that Olebush was a failure because he didn;t get rid of Saddam. It was like Saddam had the Bush family gonads in his pocket, and Junior just had to get them back.

It might have been possible to depose Saddam without making the horrible mess that Rummy's bad planning made of it. But it wasn't necessary, and all that have died have done so in vain.

[Cynthia]

"But it wasn't necessary, and all that have died have done so in vain."

It's hard to hear those words.....died in vain.
 Perhaps it's the war that was "in vain".
 I feel that no matter......any soldier who dies in a battle dies for the battle----not necessarily in vain----because if the war had been worth the call, then the soldier's death would never have been considered "in vain".....The war is the entity suffered in vain this time around....not the dead boy who did what he was trained to do. To me there is no dying in vain when it comes to doing one's job. Sad but often times the worst part of a deadlly stupid war.....the comments that resonate back to families and communities...those little words; IN VAIN.

[Amianthus]

Juniorbush was tired of everyone saying that Olebush was a failure because he didn;t get rid of Saddam.

Who was saying that?

[Xavier_Onassis]

It's hard to hear those words.....died in vain.
 Perhaps it's the war that was "in vain".

========================================
Of course it's not easy to hear. It's like someone stole all your Christmas presents, like your car had a hole in the tank.

Let's say that the war was for no good reason, and the men died because they were fighting that war.
They would mostly all be alive today had there been no war.

============================================
Juniorbush was tired of everyone saying that Olebush was a failure because he didn;t get rid of Saddam.

Who was saying that?

Perhaps everyone except you.
But many many people said that Olebush should've take out Saddam during Gulf War I.
Surely you heard at least two of them.

[Amianthus]

But many many people said that Olebush should've take out Saddam during Gulf War I.
Surely you heard at least two of them.

You and Knutty?

[Cynthia]

It's hard to hear those words.....died in vain.
 Perhaps it's the war that was "in vain".

========================================
Of course it's not easy to hear. It's like someone stole all your Christmas presents, like your car had a hole in the tank.

Let's say that the war was for no good reason, and the men died because they were fighting that war.
They would mostly all be alive today had there been no war.

============================================
Juniorbush was tired of everyone saying that Olebush was a failure because he didn;t get rid of Saddam.

Who was saying that?

Perhaps everyone except you.
But many many people said that Olebush should've take out Saddam during Gulf War I.
Surely you heard at least two of them.

I know it's hard...but in some ways I am also saying that it is not that accurate. The men did a job they were trained for. There is an honor in battle that transcends winning or losing or for nothing, I guess I am saying here...and I will never chose such words as dying in vain because there is so much more to say about the soldier especially after he/she is dead.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Can we say that the brave men of the Wehrmacht or the Waffen SS died in vain, then?

Of course, they did what they were trained to do, but the sad truth is that most jobs entail doing what one was trained to do, and eventually it all comes down to nothing. The guy who spends his life stocking supermarket shelves, the accountant that spends a life doing tax returns, the drycleaner who spends a life getting out stains.

Eventually all the food is eaten and those who bought it are dead, the taxes and paid and the money is spend, and no one remembers for what, the clothes get stained again and eventually wear out.

But the soldier kills other people. If this results in a negative result, as it surely must much of the time, it's less useful to the rest pof us than the labors of the stockman, the accountant or the drycleaner, when you come right down to it.

And there is not likely to be a negative result of the labors of the stockman, the accountant or the dry cleaner.

[Cynthia]

Xavier,
 When a man/woman kills in war that is not necessarily a killing of revenge/hate, etc I just can't compare a dry cleaner, or even a milkman with a fighting soldier. Ok, so the milkman's milk goes sour upon delivery. A delivery in vain? Perhpas..., but then again there will be another cow down another lane, another washed out bottle...and another successful delivery the another bottle of milk.

There will be other soldiers in other wars who will die. But, I just can't come to compare the milkmaid to the fallen soldier.....

"in vain" conjures up "waste"..... I would prefer to consider my sour milk a loss, in vain? nope. 

By the by, there was a time as a  child that I remember opening the front door to pick up the fresh  bottles of milk on the porch. Times sure have changed.

There were jars of milk and there were jars of wars back then, before back then and will probably continue to be forward from "then" as wars are part of the landscape as are cows.

Come on, there has to be a more considerate term or honor paid to the man/woman who has died while fighting for a "cause"....especially if the soldier has been fighting for a "cause" with no chance of input, or a legitimate chance of "getting out", well not easily, that is. Did the Vietnam Vet die in vain, or did the gent who fled to Canada "live" on in vain? To the dead soldier, perhaps the one who runs lives in vain.

in any even, we all as human beings deserve more, imo.

Personal choice, I suppose.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Come on, there has to be a more considerate term or honor paid to the man/woman who has died while fighting for a "cause"....especially  if the soldier has been fighting for a "cause" with no chance of input, or a legitimate chance of "getting out", well not easily, that is. Did the Vietnam Vet die in vain, or did the gent who fled to Canada "live" on in vain? To the dead soldier, perhaps the one who runs lives in vain.

in any even, we all as human beings deserve more, imo.

Personal choice, I suppose.
===================================================================
I agree that soldiers always get more publicity when they get killed in action or blown up fighting in some foreign land for flag and country, but I disagree that they deserve more acclaim than a normal civilian in a struggle against cancer, AIDS, heart disease or any one of a thousand ghastly diseases.

The sad fact is that everyone dies, which is what the Buddha noted as one of the Great Truths, and I am afraid that pretty much all of us die simply because of our mortal nature. We all die, and for no good reason. Even if there were a good reason, if we had not been afforded the proper moment for showing it, we would have died anyway. It's what we do, just like breathing, sleeping and eating lunch.


We can make a really big deal of how much bravery was involved in that last charge against the enemy at Stalingrad by either side, or defending the perameter against thousands of Vietcong at Tan Son Hut or Pork Chop Hill, or whatever, but this is no more intrinsically noble than the illustration of the guy on the Quaker Oats box is honest... only less trite.

[Cynthia]

"We all die, and for no good reason."

Well, there ya go.....the point at which we disagree. We all die...and yes, we all die for a very good reason. We also all LIVE for very good reasons. WHo knows what lives have been touched any individual soul on the planet. Ok..well, we need no dig that far down. Hitler was pretty bad ass....and so was Saddam..but in the scheme of things....on the bell curve...we all give to society, and we all make choices. We are also honored in different ways.

All of our lives are worht something and our death is no different...in terms of worth and services rendered. 
THe person who puts herself/himself out there to defend a nation, or a family member who is threatened by an intruder and family member A takes action and unfortunately kills said intruder...... a citizen who is in danger until someone citizen Joan steps in to make that soul's life exist just that much longer because she KO'D or perhaps killed a rapist/murderer.

The one who stepped in to defend is killed. Ok, sure I also consider that person a candidate to be honored.

 I suppose we can argue all night about the reasons why someone who dies of AIDS OR FROM WMD etc is not celebrated in the same way. But he is. She is. Just not considered "in vain". Why do we rush to consider those who fight for someone/.something other than themselves a life lost IN VAIN?..



In vain will never touch the lips of my mouth when it comes to dying in battle, or being maimed or even injured when afterall, that person has done so much for others in an arena or atmostphere called--- combat. There is a sort of honorable civility....i.e. honor roll protocal .....that exists when it comes to stepping up to a plate for such purposes.
Very frew people hold that conviction in life.

 I applaud the people, no matter what.

 I can't put them under my Christmas tree wrapped or unwrapped. They belong as part of the decoration and adorations design each and every holiday. A holiday that marks their lives and their sacrifices.

I guess that's why we have Memorial Day.

Thank you for that day Uncle Sam.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I didn't say that we don't LIVE for a good reason. I think we decide what our purpose is by ourselves.
I said we DIE for no good reason, other than because we have been designed as mortal.

So, did the Waffen SS die in vain, defending the Third Reich from Slavic and Jewish domination, and creating leibensraum for their fellow Germans?