Author Topic: civil disobedience  (Read 8875 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2008, 08:33:35 AM »
Again, not surprised really, but I confess I don't understand. I mean, understand the reason given, but the reason seems, well, bass ackawards. How can students be encouraged to excel at learning if any hint of excellence is tamped down from the top?

I understand the Japanese say "A nail that sticks out gets hammered down."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2008, 09:13:05 AM »

Quote
It is good to bring up Gandhi , who was the master of the nonviolence method.

His people were most effective when they were most disciplined , can American Libertarians manage this sort of thing?

Quote
Good question. I don't know.

That is not optional , it is the key .


I don't know if discipline is so much the key as a leader and spokesperson. In India, there was Ghandi. Here, there was Martin Luther King, Jr. The civil rights movement had a face in King, more so than any of the other notables involved. He spoke for the movement, and when some folks tried to violently protest, he said, no, that is not the way. Who would do this for libertarians? I have no idea.

Imagine the worlds most intelligent and charming leader , hearding cats.

The quality of the croud that follows is important.

Stray Pooch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2008, 09:20:43 AM »
As a rule, if a school is not approved by SACS or one of the others (Western, North Central, New England),then the feds will not loan money to students to attend said school.

Which means, effectively, that the government sets the standards.  If the appropriate officials decide that the SACS standards are not acceptable, then SACS accreditation no longer suffices.  Money talks.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Stray Pooch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2008, 09:51:23 AM »
Again, not surprised really, but I confess I don't understand. I mean, understand the reason given, but the reason seems, well, bass ackawards. How can students be encouraged to excel at learning if any hint of excellence is tamped down from the top?

The theory goes something like this:  (Heaven knows I can't make too much sense of it, but I'll try.)

Children are more likely to succeed if they feel good about themselves.  Having poor self-esteem leads to failure.  That's why little Johnny shouldn't get "A B C" grades but just "Succeeding" or "Developing."  (Developing means the same as not succeeding, but"failing" is demeaning.)  If little Susie is selected for TAG, little Johnny will feel inferior, so he is likely to, um, develop more slowly.   This extends to the idea that if little Johnny can't develop to the point of succeeding, he should not be held back, because, hey, Susie gets to move on and we wouldn't want to damage Johnny by making him feel bad.  (It is far worse, you see, for a child to develop low self-esteem than to be illiterate.)

This is something I have seen in a lot of places, not just schools and not just liberal politics.  I took a lot of part-time jobs in the military because one income-five kids is NOT conducive to eating.  Invariably, whenever I (or other military types with me) would apply the typical military work ethic and DO the job we were getting paid for we were told that we needed to stop showing off.  We were making the others look bad.  When I do a supply inventory with my present company I always come up perfect to the penny.  (We know a week in advance and I get organized, get ready and come prepared.)  I have actually been told by auditors that I should have at least a small shortage, because it makes the other guys look bad if I am perfect and they are not.  In schools, aside from the academic nail hammering to which Ami referred, other kids get angry if you do well.  "You think you're better than me because you got straight A's."  There is a bumper sticker out there that reads "My kid can beat up your honor student" in response to the "My kid is an honor student at Damimgood Elementary School."  It's funny, I admit, and most of the folks who sport the sticker probably wouldn't actually let their kids go around stomping smart people.  But the sentiment is real.  There are even cultural reasons for avoiding excellence.  Many people think academic achievement is too "uppity," too elitist or just too white.

Finally, this is not a new thing.  Back in 1969 I had a sixth grade teacher who got angry with me.  He asked for a definition of the word "revolve."  Even then, the Pooch was wordy, but the definition I gave was hardly a lengthy diatribe.  It was something like "It means to move around something like the planets go around the sun."  He angrily  said to me "I didn't ask for a scientific analysis, Doctor, I just wanted a definition!  You could have just said 'spin.'"  After that, he spent the rest of the year referring to me as "Doctor."  Ya know, surprisingly, I don't think it was intended in a complimentary way.  This was, of course, picked up by the other kids and the rest of the year was jst peachy for me.  The teacher was African-American and from California.  I'm not sure which cultural norm he was following, but either way, thank God he saved the other kids from having their self-esteem damaged.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2008, 09:53:32 AM »
Children are more likely to succeed if they feel good about themselves.  Having poor self-esteem leads to failure.

I heard George Carlin talking about this.

"Extremely aggressive, violent people think highly of themselves. Imagine that, sociopaths have high self-esteem - who woulda thunk."
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 10:23:36 AM by Amianthus »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2008, 11:33:50 AM »

I agree, I'm just not sure that you can muster as much support as a more widely-accept concept of injustice would.


Oh I dunno, "separate but equal" seemed reasonable to a lot of people too. Anyway, I think this goes again to how such a movement would be presented and defended in the media. It would be a hard, uphill struggle, but one that I think could be meaningful if done right.



Actually, I was talking about getting immediate sympathy and eventual results.  King's actions did that.  People noticed him quickly.  The bus boycott got results within about a year.  That's pretty good short-term return.


True enough. I guess a lot depends on how many people are fed up with, say, the way public schools perform. Or how many people are fed up with getting their hair braided essentially in secret because people who would otherwise openly run a hair braiding business would have to go through the process of getting cosmetologists license. Et cetera. It will also depend on whether this can be sold as a single issue on multiple fronts or whether people see it as a lot of little minor, inconsequential issues.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2008, 11:47:47 AM »

Libertarianism doesn't seem to lend itself to acceptance of a leader on a white horse , who they will obey , lacking this quality what sort of quality does Libertarianism have that can motiveat large numbers of people to disciplined action?


Well, frankly a charismatic leader leading enough libertarians and/or libertarian minded folks would be sufficient. The leader would not have to get every single last libertarian minded person to agree with him 100%. If I recall my history correctly, not all black folks agreed with King.


Anarchists of the World, Unite! doesn't quite make it as a slogan.


That assumes anarchists are opposed to order. That is not generally the case in my opinion. Many people equate order in society with government. Anarchists do not. They are anarchists, not entropists. Mostly.


KIng and the bus boycott worked as a valid protest because no one can claim that anyone lacks the right to not take the bus, or that everyone who does ride the bus and pays the same fare should have the right to select their seat.


And yet, many did just that. Go figure.


Libertarianism has none of that. Refusal to pay taxes?

It just won't work.


It might if enough people decided to do it. And if enough did, someone in the future might just be able to argue, "no one can claim that anyone lacks the right to keep his own property." I'm not saying this will happen any time soon, I'm just saying, it could happen.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2008, 11:51:16 AM »

Not that I wish you were at a loss for words, as you're usually very articulate, but I tried to follow your and UP's discussion on libertarianism recently, and gave up when I came to the conclusion that it was like trying to read "The Brothers Karamazov" of a message forum.


The Brothers Karamazov? Man, you really know how to hurt a guy's feelings.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2008, 11:53:40 AM »

It was a tournament of two damn fine minds (if I do say so myself) beating the hell out of a particular horse. 


Oh yeah? What's that supposed to mean?

;-]
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Stray Pooch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2008, 12:00:10 PM »
Oh yeah? What's that supposed to mean?


I don't know.  I haven't heard your counterargument yet.  :D
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2008, 12:05:38 PM »

The theory goes something like this:


I get the theory, I just think the theory is wrong. I understand that the people who support it mean well, but it seems obviously counterproductive to me.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2008, 12:06:17 PM »

Imagine the worlds most intelligent and charming leader , hearding cats.

The quality of the croud that follows is important.


I get that, but libertarians are not cats, contrary to popular opinion. And as I said earlier, a leader for this would not have to get every last libertarian minded person to agree with him 100%. Ron Paul is in disagreement with many libertarians regarding immigration, but he still had a lot of support even among those libertarians. Many libertarians who normally advocate not supporting a broken system with voting were arguing this campaign season that people should vote for Ron Paul. I'm not advocating for trying to make Ron Paul the leader of a civil disobedience movement, just trying to point out that leading such a movement might not be as difficult as you seem to think.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2008, 12:08:23 PM »

I don't know.  I haven't heard your counterargument yet.  :D


Oh sure, it's always my fault! Harumph.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2008, 12:08:32 PM »

Imagine the worlds most intelligent and charming leader , hearding cats.

The quality of the croud that follows is important.


I get that, but libertarians are not cats, contrary to popular opinion. And as I said earlier, a leader for this would not have to get every last libertarian minded person to agree with him 100%. Ron Paul is in disagreement with many libertarians regarding immigration, but he still had a lot of support even among those libertarians. Many libertarians who normally advocate not supporting a broken system with voting were arguing this campaign season that people should vote for Ron Paul. I'm not advocating for trying to make Ron Paul the leader of a civil disobedience movement, just trying to point out that leading such a movement might not be as difficult as you seem to think.

I am not saying it can't be done , I am saying it can't be done small.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2008, 12:11:50 PM »

I am not saying it can't be done , I am saying it can't be done small.


I agree with that completely.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--