Israel threatens Holocaust

[_JS]

Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust'
Staff and agencies guardian.co.uk
Friday February 29 2008


_{A Sderot chicken factory damaged by a Hamas rocket. Photograph: AP/Almog Sugavker}

An Israeli minister today warned of increasingly bitter conflict in the Gaza Strip, saying the Palestinians could bring on themselves what he called a "holocaust".

"The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio.

Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events.

The minister's statement came after two days of tit-for-tat missile raids between Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip and the Israeli army. At least 32 Palestinians and one Israeli have been killed since the surge in violence on Wednesday.

Today Israel activated a rocket warning system to protect Ashkelon, a city of 120,000 people, from Palestinian attacks.

Ashkelon was hit by several Grad rockets fired from Gaza yesterday. One hit an apartment building, slicing through the roof and three floors below, and another landed near a school, wounding a 17-year-old girl.

Located 11 miles from Gaza, Ashkelon has been sporadically targeted before but not suffered direct hits or significant damage.

"It will be sad, and difficult, but we have no other choice," Vilnai said, referring to the large-scale military operation he said Israel was preparing to bring a halt to the rocket fire.

"We're getting close to using our full strength. Until now, we've used a small percentage of the army's power because of the nature of the territory."

Israel would not launch a ground offensive in the next week or two, partly because the military would prefer to wait for better weather, defence sources said. But the army had completed its preparations and was awaiting the government's order to move, officials said.

Until now, the Palestinian rocket squads have largely targeted Sderot, a small town near Gaza. Ashkelon, a big population centre only 25 miles from Tel Aviv, was caught unprepared, its mayor said on Friday.

"It's a city of 120,000 people, with large facilities ? a huge soccer stadium, a basketball stadium and a beach. No one is ready for this," Roni Mehatzri told Israel Radio.

Dozens of soldiers in orange berets from the Israeli military's home front command arrived in Ashkelon and hung posters around the city telling residents what to do in case of rocket attack.

The barrage of Iranian-made Grads directed at Ashkelon yesterday came after an escalation of violence in Gaza. Israel killed five Hamas militants on Wednesday morning, apparently including two planners of the rocket attacks, in an air strike on a minivan.

Later in the day, a Palestinian rocket killed an Israeli civilian, a 47-year-old father of four, in Sderot.

Hamas, an Islamist group with close ties to Iran, has ruled Gaza since its violent takeover there in June 2006.

Since Wednesday, 32 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli missile strikes, including 14 civilians, among them eight children, according to Palestinian officials. The youngest was a six-month-old boy, Mohammed al-Borai, whose funeral was held yesterday.

There were further indications that Israel was preparing for an offensive by sending confidential messages to world leaders, including the US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, who plans to visit the region next week.

"Israel is not keen on, and rushing for, an offensive, but Hamas is leaving us no choice," the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, told the senior figures, according to Israel's mass circulation daily, Yedioth Ahronoth.

Security sources were quoted by both Israel Radio and army radio as saying a big operation was being prepared but was not imminent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1

[Rich]

Let's hope Israel is finally ready to deal with this problem in a substantial way.

It's time to put an end to these murderous attacks.

[The_Professor]

I concur. Dealing from a position of strength is always preferable.

[Rich]

Maybe they're waiting till January so they can tell Obama to shove it up his ass.

[Michael Tee]

<<It's time to put an end to these murderous attacks.>>

I agree.  32 Palestinians including eight children dead.  It IS time to put an end to these murderous attacks.

An escalation of Israel's murderous attacks on the civilians of Palestine can have only one result - - a closing of ranks against Israel, more support for the hard-line rejectionist factions of Palestinian and Arab politics.  More financial, diplomatic and military support.  And more internal agitation for the fall of local pro-Amerikkkan puppet governments in the region.  At a time when Amerikkka has its bloodstained hands full in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The status quo is intolerable.  Something has to give and something has to start the process.  An Israeli holocaust inflicted on the defenceless Arab population of Gaza and/or the West Bank is probably the quickest way I can think of.  Also igniting even more worldwide anger against Amerikkka just as its economy is starting to circle the drain.  Excellent.

[The_Professor]

<<It's time to put an end to these murderous attacks.>>

I agree.  32 Palestinians including eight children dead.  It IS time to put an end to these murderous attacks.

An escalation of Israel's murderous attacks on the civilians of Palestine can have only one result - - a closing of ranks against Israel, more support for the hard-line rejectionist factions of Palestinian and Arab politics.  More financial, diplomatic and military support.  And more internal agitation for the fall of local pro-Amerikkkan puppet governments in the region.  At a time when Amerikkka has its bloodstained hands full in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The status quo is intolerable.  Something has to give and something has to start the process.  An Israeli holocaust inflicted on the defenceless Arab population of Gaza and/or the West Bank is probably the quickest way I can think of.  Also igniting even more worldwide anger against Amerikkka just as its economy is starting to circle the drain.  Excellent.

In many other issues such as these, I concur, MT. As I have indicated, we should not have gotten involved in Iraq and so on. But, Israel is a unique category due to its "specialness" as the Chosen People. Heck, you are one! I know we disagree, but I believe Israel will not only survive all this, but thrive. Why? And thus it is written...

You keep saying we on the Right have been tainted by the Zionist lobby, well, it is sad that you have been tainted and so do not support your birthright as one of God's Chosen Few. You see, there is no real differentiation between Israel the nation and Israel the nation geographically placed. You fell for that misconceived view and continue to proliferate it as well. They are one, the Chosen People and Their God-given Destiny. You therefore reject your own Heritage. Where is your yamkia? Where is yout Torah? Do you read it? In Revelations, it is said that the Lord will spit you out if you are lukewarm. Are you lukewarm, MT? It is your call whether you are or not, and between you and God, but please do not spout all this Israel is one thing and yet another while calling us contaminated by certain grouips in the same breath.

[Michael Tee]

On the plane back from Miami (to change at Philly) I sat next to a very liberal Jewish Democratic activist and fund-raiser, a guy who's met Bill Clinton personally six or seven times.  (I didn't ask about Hillary or Obama.)   One of the things he said (relevant to this thread) was that the severest critics of Israel that he's ever met are all Jews.  I'm very proud of that.  Unlike most Amerikkkans, we can criticize a country we love.  Severely.  Because we are not brainwashed morons.

If you read the Bible as much as you seem to do, Professor, I think you'll find that the same thing was as true then as it is now.  The Prophets of Israel rained down fire-and-brimstone shitstorms of invective against Israel, denouncing every fucking thing that they were doing wrong.  That is because they expect better conduct from Israel than they do from the goyim (gentiles.)  That is the real meaning of a Chosen People - - not chosen to be spoiled and pampered and given dominion over the earth, like the Anglo-Saxons or maybe now the Chinese, but chosen to obey God's word, to take the hard road and not the easy way.  To be different.  Let Harry Truman drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not that the fucking bastards didn't deserve it.)  But the Jews are not gonna drop that bomb.  Not if they don't have to.  And especially not if the objective is to shield themselves from the legitimate anger of the people they have robbed and despoiled.

Israel will survive and it will survive without acting like Nazis or Amerikkkans but like Jews - - with some humanity and grace, and as best it can.  And if it doesn't survive, that's OK too.  Israel has been pushed under before.  We aren't as terrified as you seem to be of the roof falling in, because the roof already HAS fallen in on us, more than once.  You really should get rid of your fear, Professor.  Fear makes men do terrible things.

[Xavier_Onassis]

You see, there is no real differentiation between Israel the nation and Israel the nation geographically placed.
==============================================================
Israel, the original Israel, was destroyed about 100 AD by the Romans.
There have always been some Jews living in what was Israel then and is still Israel today, but the new state was founded in 1947, and is not the same as the former one, just as the England that built Stonehenge is not the same as modern England.


MT simply disagrees with the politics of the current Israeli administration. I hardly think it is your place to tell him he can't do this.

I imagine that MT owns several yarmulkes, and has a menorah or two and even several souveniers from Israel. he is more likely than you to drink Manishevitz or Mogen David and to attend a bris. But if he doesn't, that does not necessarily make him less Jewish.

I would think that if Osama is elected president of the US, it would be a bad idea for Israel to tell a US president to shove anything anywhere. If he were defeated, it would be useless.

Israel is a beggar nation with regard to the US. The money that the US gives Israel is vastly more than anything Israel has ever done or will ever do for the US. The money that American Jews, many of whom are quite patriotic Americans is even more than the aid money. So the chance that  Israel will ever tell any US president to shove anything is far less likely than hearing Dick Cheney and Juniorbush doing a rap album denouncing Exxon-Mobil.

[Michael Tee]

<<I imagine that MT owns several yarmulkes, and has a menorah or two and even several souveniers from Israel. he is more likely than you to drink Manishevitz or Mogen David and to attend a bris. But if he doesn't, that does not necessarily make him less Jewish.>>

That was funny, XO.  I keep a yarmulke in my jacket pocket and my glove compartment in case I have to go to a graveyard, but I was raised in the Reform Jewish tradition which doesn't use yarmulkes (or didn't when I was a kid) and doesn't observe the dietary laws.    I have no souvenirs from Israel on principle - - I don't like the way they treat people, and when they start treating Arabs like human beings, maybe I'll start patronizing their arts and crafts.  I've never visited there, for the same reason.  My late father-in-law, however, is buried in Ashkelon (which the story mentioned) because he died there on a visit.  We DO have a few menorahs in the house, none of them mine (my wife is more into this bullshit than I am) and we're a lot more likely to drink Beaujolais or Chianti than Manischewitz or Mogen David.  I can't recall ever buying or even receiving a bottle of either of the latter brands.  Not only did I attend bris, at the last one (my grandson's) I had the dubious honour of holding the little guy's legs down while the moyel (the guy with the knife) did his thing.  That's a lot harder emotionally than you might think.  Philosophically, I'm against it (it's ritual infant mutilation) but I had it done to my son and it continues because it's like breaking a chain letter that is thousands of years old - - even if it's bullshit, why be the one to break the chain?

Amerikkkan  money has ruined and corrupted the Jews of Israel.  When they began the State, it was a Socialist state and its weapons came mainly from Communist Czechoslovakia.  The kibbutzim of Israel were some of the purest forms of socialism on this planet.  Now they are like little gentiles themselves - - their conduct, their morals and their ethics often indistinguishable from those of their "benefactors."  It is Amerikkkan aid that enables them to act like ass-holes towards their ethnic cousins and display the kind of arrogance and contempt that in the end may well be their downfall.  This would not be the first time that the Jewish people have bought into the Golden Calf and IMHO they are really going a long way down a dead-end street.

[The_Professor]

On the plane back from Miami (to change at Philly) I sat next to a very liberal Jewish Democratic activist and fund-raiser, a guy who's met Bill Clinton personally six or seven times.  (I didn't ask about Hillary or Obama.)   One of the things he said (relevant to this thread) was that the severest critics of Israel that he's ever met are all Jews.  I'm very proud of that.  Unlike most Amerikkkans, we can criticize a country we love.  Severely.  Because we are not brainwashed morons.

If you read the Bible as much as you seem to do, Professor, I think you'll find that the same thing was as true then as it is now.  The Prophets of Israel rained down fire-and-brimstone shitstorms of invective against Israel, denouncing every fucking thing that they were doing wrong.  That is because they expect better conduct from Israel than they do from the goyim (gentiles.)  That is the real meaning of a Chosen People - - not chosen to be spoiled and pampered and given dominion over the earth, like the Anglo-Saxons or maybe now the Chinese, but chosen to obey God's word, to take the hard road and not the easy way.  To be different.  Let Harry Truman drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not that the fucking bastards didn't deserve it.)  But the Jews are not gonna drop that bomb.  Not if they don't have to.  And especially not if the objective is to shield themselves from the legitimate anger of the people they have robbed and despoiled.

Israel will survive and it will survive without acting like Nazis or Amerikkkans but like Jews - - with some humanity and grace, and as best it can.  And if it doesn't survive, that's OK too.  Israel has been pushed under before.  We aren't as terrified as you seem to be of the roof falling in, because the roof already HAS fallen in on us, more than once.  You really should get rid of your fear, Professor.  Fear makes men do terrible things.

Good post, MT. Yes, the prophets, both Major af Minor, did exactly this per God's direction. God used thme to point out the wrongness of the Jews time and time again. Actually, they were Chosen to do what you indicated and Chosen by God to be His special people, to follow His teachings and to populate the Earth per His direction.

I do not have any fear, MT. How could I, MT, when I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will protect Israel?

[The_Professor]

You see, there is no real differentiation between Israel the nation and Israel the nation geographically placed.
==============================================================
Israel, the original Israel, was destroyed about 100 AD by the Romans.
There have always been some Jews living in what was Israel then and is still Israel today, but the new state was founded in 1947, and is not the same as the former one, just as the England that built Stonehenge is not the same as modern England.


MT simply disagrees with the politics of the current Israeli administration. I hardly think it is your place to tell him he can't do this.

I imagine that MT owns several yarmulkes, and has a menorah or two and even several souveniers from Israel. he is more likely than you to drink Manishevitz or Mogen David and to attend a bris. But if he doesn't, that does not necessarily make him less Jewish.

I would think that if Osama is elected president of the US, it would be a bad idea for Israel to tell a US president to shove anything anywhere. If he were defeated, it would be useless.

Israel is a beggar nation with regard to the US. The money that the US gives Israel is vastly more than anything Israel has ever done or will ever do for the US. The money that American Jews, many of whom are quite patriotic Americans is even more than the aid money. So the chance that  Israel will ever tell any US president to shove anything is far less likely than hearing Dick Cheney and Juniorbush doing a rap album denouncing Exxon-Mobil.

"MT simply disagrees with the politics of the current Israeli administration. I hardly think it is your place to tell him he can't do this."

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that at all. MT is certainly allowed any and all postulating on this or any other issue, even if sometimes he is WAY out in left field. 

[Michael Tee]

<<I do not have any fear, MT. How could I, MT, when I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will protect Israel?>>

Well right there we have a little problem, Professor.  God does not always protect Israel.  Sometimes when He is really pissed off at them, He lets them have it with both barrels.  And sometimes, without any obvious provocation, as in the Holocaust of my own lifetime, He unleashes the whirlwind on them without any apparent justification at all.  Ours not to wonder why.  If I were God, I would be in a towering rage about now, over the way the Jews have acted towards the Palestinians.  Hopefully, the Good Lord is a little bit more tolerant than I am.

[Plane]

How terribly sad it is.

That this Leader is a Jew and uses the word Shoah which he certainly understands .

[Xavier_Onassis]

God does not always protect Israel.  Sometimes when He is really pissed off at them, He lets them have it with both barrels.  And sometimes, without any obvious provocation, as in the Holocaust of my own lifetime, He unleashes the whirlwind on them without any apparent justification at all.
=======================================================================================\
I can't see any possible motive for the Holocaust from God's point of view. I don't see how God could have created Nazis with the express motive of punishing Jews. It would sort of imply that the Germans had no free will at all,that Hitler was in some way an agent of Satan.

The best theological construct I can imagine from a logical point of view is that of God the clockwinder. He makes a universe, winds it up and walks away, perhaps off to make another clockwork universe. We, as cogs in the works, have the options of wobbling to the left or right a bit. Our free will is certainly vastly less than it could be, restricted as we are to size, strength, longevity and such.

There is the theory that God underestimated the noise involved in the Big Bang, and went deaf as a result. Maybe blind, too.

Of course, the Universe might simply be timeless, with no end OR beginning, and like a kaleidoscope, it changes again and again until every possible permutation and possibity has occurred, then it starts all over again, simple because that is its nature.

[Plane]

God does not always protect Israel.  Sometimes when He is really pissed off at them, He lets them have it with both barrels.  And sometimes, without any obvious provocation, as in the Holocaust of my own lifetime, He unleashes the whirlwind on them without any apparent justification at all.
=======================================================================================\
I can't see any possible motive for the Holocaust from God's point of view. I don't see how God could have created Nazis with the express motive of punishing Jews. It would sort of imply that the Germans had no free will at all,that Hitler was in some way an agent of Satan.

The best theological construct I can imagine from a logical point of view is that of God the clockwinder. He makes a universe, winds it up and walks away, perhaps off to make another clockwork universe. We, as cogs in the works, have the options of wobbling to the left or right a bit. Our free will is certainly vastly less than it could be, restricted as we are to size, strength, longevity and such.

There is the theory that God underestimated the noise involved in the Big Bang, and went deaf as a result. Maybe blind, too.

Of course, the Universe might simply be timeless, with no end OR beginning, and like a kaleidoscope, it changes again and again until every possible permutation and possibity has occurred, then it starts all over again, simple because that is its nature.

Does your theroy require that we will always understand the choices , purposes and work of a being of greater intelligence than we have?