Author Topic: California judge says no to homeschooling  (Read 73961 times)

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Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2008, 05:13:03 PM »
UP,

You assume that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.

What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?

What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home"...a view that is biased and prejudicial. Sure, there are extreme examples of white Supremacists who decide to teach their children to hate the government, or to hate- period. A slippery slope? Freedom to teach without standards that are universal to a given society is dangerous.

If, say, a parent thinks it is ok to hit a child for the sake of discipline with the attitude that a "hit"  is a hit is a hit...a pat on the butt is a pat on the butt ...unless, of course that pat comes after the parent has consumed a six pack or two? Then the hit falls into a possible abuse. Slippery slope.

Parents who home school must be held to high and consistent standards. ....and someone has to monitor the parent's methods of teaching, not to mention curriculum.

 Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

Then again, should we be allowed to make home visits on parents who home school, and decide to put them on the evening news if they do not hold up to such high standards?

« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 05:16:05 PM by Cynthia »

sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2008, 05:25:17 PM »
UP,  You are under the assumtion that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.  What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?  What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home".

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?


Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

I seem to recall a rage from Democrats complaining how the GOP supposedly wanted to know what was going on with person's private lives. (Strange how its the left gleefully talking about outing gay people) Are you one those??  If there's abuse, there are mechanisms already in place.  You're advocating not just stepping over those mechanisms, but to remove the parent from parental decisions.  Specifically as it relates to education

Now, you won't find a bigger supporter of teachers than me.  Their job gets no where near the respect and admiration it deserves.  BUT, to usurp parents decisions on how their own child is to be raised, because you need to know what's going on behind closed doors, sounds almost KGB-like.

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Rich

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2008, 05:48:11 PM »
>>Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?<<

It's interesting that the first complaint is that they may be being taught a "radically religious-based curriculum."

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2008, 06:09:06 PM »
UP,  You are under the assumtion that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.  What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?  What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home".

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?


Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

I seem to recall a rage from Democrats complaining how the GOP supposedly wanted to know what was going on with person's private lives. (Strange how its the left gleefully talking about outing gay people) Are you one those??  If there's abuse, there are mechanisms already in place.  You're advocating not just stepping over those mechanisms, but to remove the parent from parental decisions.  Specifically as it relates to education

Now, you won't find a bigger supporter of teachers than me.  Their job gets no where near the respect and admiration it deserves.  BUT, to usurp parents decisions on how their own child is to be raised, because you need to know what's going on behind closed doors, sounds almost KGB-like.



So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?
What about the socialization factors involved, the spirit, the connection with others...a child's ability to interact and solve problems that can not be measured on a test?

Stray Pooch

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2008, 06:12:59 PM »
Quote

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.


No, I charge you with wanting to exploit children for your own purposes.

Precisely.  In fact, Marx says pretty much exactly that in that quote.  "The Communists have not intended the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class. "  Marx was proud and quite in-your-face about his intentions.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

sirs

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2008, 06:37:27 PM »
So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?

Not "a" test, but multiple tests, taken over an extended amount of time as the child grows.  The same standardized tests taken by those in Public School, I do believe.  It they are consistently passing (although I keep hearing how they are predominatly exceeding the students in Public School) said standardized tests, that demonstrate compotence in reading, writing, math, & science, again what business is it yours if they're being taught differently, than how you'd teach them??


What about the socialization factors involved, the spirit, the connection with others...a child's ability to interact and solve problems that can not be measured on a test?

This is the ONLY area where Public school does provide more, that being the ability to socialize.  the problem is that homeschooling does not in any way equate to the child being locked in a room, and prevented from having any source of outside friendship.  it just means they have to meet with their friends AFTER school is out, interacting to their heart's content.  Not sure what the problem is with that either.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2008, 07:00:34 PM »
"Miss Cynthia, with all due respect.......so what?  The point Prince accurately referenced; are the children passing the tests??  If they are, what business is it of yours how they're taught?"

First of all, thanks for the due respect....I have always felt comfortable debating you because of that, Sirs Pc..thanks

Anyway....I realize that it is not my business "what or how the child is taught"...as the home environment is allowed certain privilege of privacy; but I do believe that it is the business of the society to know what is taught and how. Why would the home schooling system be so afraid to allow that window of observation and data collection?

I also think that it is the business of the child to know what and how things are being taught in the "outside world" -----as they will someday enter into that world to interact with others.

I suppose the bottom line, which goes back to the other post I made about the schools in France, -----that consistency of WHAT is taught, is an important key. France has it. Why not we. What are the goals here?
 We are approaching it in a risky way, imo.... if the systems that educate can't come to some sort of agreement as to what is important when it comes to teaching our children. Is passing a multiple choice test on the History of the nation more important than the ability to answer questions with critical thinking, and be able to use such critical thinking to solve problems in the every day?  I am not saying that they are not both important, but the WHAT seems to be very critical as far educating the generations to come and currently we hold no consistency in that matter.

 Why can't  we know WHAT is being taught in the home schooling environment?

In the longrun..and down the road, who's to say that the parent's values, etc that are passed on to the child through a socialization that is provided in the home schooling environment, will someday have a negative affect on us all?

 Subtle values like prejudice against gays, or hate for one religion or another,...these things can not be measured on a test.

Parents have the power to teach such attitudes.

When I was an undergraduate, we learned about "'Values Clarification". We were taught to be very careful not to pass on our  personal values(consciously or subconscously) to children in the classroom.

I believe it is very important to steer clear of passing on such attitudes, biases, and personal values to children while in the mode of learning. Children need to "acquire" critical thinking, facts, skills and an overall unbiased approach while learning.

If we were to study the two ....home schooled kids /vs /non home schooled kids, we might see that both have passed the "tests" with flying colors, but at what cost?

Personal bias. Personal feelings. Those transfer to a child. If a parent holds a particular disdain for another thread of thought.....does he have the right to educate the child.

DOes that child deserve to be taught by that parent? I say no.

I also think that no system is perfect and that we need to be ready to analyze and collect data on just what is happening in every child's life...be it in the home schooling situation, or PS systems.  It's critical to growth and making systems work.

So, I say there needs to be some sort of 'monitoring" of the situation in the home.  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 07:04:26 PM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2008, 07:10:54 PM »
"It they are consistently passing (although I keep hearing how they are predominatly exceeding the students in Public School) said standardized tests, that demonstrate compotence in reading, writing, math, & science, again what business is it yours if they're being taught differently, than how you'd teach them."

Well, as I see it, unfortunately, you are right there, Sirs.......we don't even teach science anymore. For now, that is.

But, I believe as I just posted---at length, redundantly so..( I was a bit wordy)..ha!!

 There are values issues as my bottom line in my  thought here.

There is no quick fix, and there are probably more problems currently in the PS system, but I ask why NOT monitor what is going on in the home schooling situation?

again, That's what I thought I was responding to in XOs post.

Cynthia

Universe Prince

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2008, 08:02:18 PM »

UP,

You assume that the unsupervised parent is teaching high quality standards.


No, I do not. And I don't know why you think I would.


What if the parent decides to teach the child a radically religious-based curriculum?


Okay, what if he does? If the child can read and write, perform arithmetic, et cetera, what if the parent teaches the child something scientifically wrong, like intelligent design? Even if the child decides to study biology later in life, there is no reason to think he won't be able to cope.


What if the parent gives a narrow view of the world through the process of a comfortable "schooling at home"...a view that is biased and prejudicial.


As opposed to the unbiased view of the world public school offers? You must be kidding.


 Sure, there are extreme examples of white Supremacists who decide to teach their children to hate the government, or to hate- period. A slippery slope? Freedom to teach without standards that are universal to a given society is dangerous.


No, the slippery slope is deciding for everyone else what will be the universal standards to which they must conform.


If, say, a parent thinks it is ok to hit a child for the sake of discipline with the attitude that a "hit"  is a hit is a hit...a pat on the butt is a pat on the butt ...unless, of course that pat comes after the parent has consumed a six pack or two? Then the hit falls into a possible abuse. Slippery slope.


If a government decides that homeschooling children is abusing children, is that a slippery slope to the government deciding that giving religious instruction to children is child abuse?


Parents who home school must be held to high and consistent standards. ....and someone has to monitor the parent's methods of teaching, not to mention curriculum.


Why? Shouldn't the parent be left able to respond to the child's learning needs and decide for himself how best to teach the child? If the child is learning, isn't that what matters? If the child is learning, and perhaps learning well, but the parent doesn't use the same teaching methods used at the local public school, do you really think the child will benefit by someone forcing the parent to stop using those methods or to surrender the child to public school?


Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.


What business is it of yours? Unless there is actual child abuse, why should you get to disregard someone else's privacy?


Then again, should we be allowed to make home visits on parents who home school, and decide to put them on the evening news if they do not hold up to such high standards?


No, and no.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Universe Prince

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2008, 08:04:54 PM »

So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?


Aren't you saying good education comes down to using only approved teaching methods? Anyway, just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2008, 08:07:32 PM »

Precisely.  In fact, Marx says pretty much exactly that in that quote.


I am now waiting for JS to show up and explain that isn't what Marx really meant.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2008, 10:41:11 PM »
As opposed to the unbiased view of the world public school offers?

Explain this, please.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2008, 10:51:24 PM »

So, are you saying that a good education comes down to a test?


Aren't you saying good education comes down to using only approved teaching methods? Anyway, just exactly how do you expect to find out what a child has learned without a test?

Yes, we need to have consistent and quality teaching methods. Why not?
Tests reflect just a part of a child's knowledge.
There is so much more to education than testing.
There is observation of the child's key abilities, interests, developmental stages of learning.

Tests are important. Of course..but I am saying that they are not the only thing we use to assess a child's abilities.

 Once again, what is the goal? To have aced a test, or to have made the grade through hard work, quality do-overs in life through practice after failure, and good old determination.....which are important pieces of the puzzle for a child whether that child has passed or not passed a test(s).

A+ kids...can fail in life...as D- kids can change a society.

Social skills are important, too.
Home schooling fail to measure up in that way, imo...

« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 10:55:24 PM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2008, 10:55:32 PM »
Bethany was a member during the early days of PIC and 3DHS.

She has since graduated from The University of Chicago Law School and is an entertainment lawyer in LA.

http://www.post41.com/members/homeschool.htm

Post41 was a collection of best posts and debates and articles submitted by members back in the day.
Some of the old members might enjoy reminiscing and the new members can see what we are capable of.

The Homeschool Experience

By Bethany Hollister

 

            What is homeschooling like?  I get asked that question a lot; probably many of the people reading this now are also wondering.  It?s always easy to give a laundry list of the basic benefits ? direct parental control, versatility, ease of scheduling ? and potential drawbacks ? lack of social interaction, fewer extracurricular activities, little to no accreditation.  But do these things really tell you anything about homeschooling?  For the cynic, perhaps all that matters are the cold, hard statistics of homeschooling.  What?s there, what?s tangible, what I can plainly see ? these are important things, to be sure, but they don?t get to the real heart of the issue.  The important question is not one of grades or social maturity.  The important question is what is right for your child.  Will homeschooling work for you?  I can?t answer that question.  I can, however, tell you what homeschooling was like for me.  I?ve been asked many times if I wish I had attended public school.  I?ve often wondered that myself.  How well did homeschooling work for me?  As I share some of my thoughts and reflections on my homeschool experience, I hope that they may prove relevant ? or at least interesting ? to those curious about homeschooling.

 

            I remember my first ?classroom.?  It was in the living room of our house in Selmer, Tennessee.  I had a little desk and chair that sat in front of the window, right next to the piano.  My mom sat across from me on the couch and taught me reading and writing, mathematics and science, social studies and history.  My first days of school were short and to the point; we went through my lesson for the day and then I was free to play with my brother and sister or my best friend, who spent afternoons with her grandparents (our next-door neighbors).  Soon my brother, Justin, and my sister, Noelle, joined the ranks of homeschooled children.  Imagine if you will being solely responsible for the concurrent education of three children under the age of ten, each in a different grade, and you may have a picture of what my mom must have gone through.  Still, she persevered and, fortunately for her, Justin and I (and soon afterwards, Noelle) were able to work through most of our school without her help.

 

            Justin and Noelle and I fought plenty, as all siblings do.  But we also developed a close relationship (they would deny this if ever asked).  Since there were a number of days when we would finish school before the rest of the neighborhood was let out, the only friends we had around were each other.  We used to make up all kinds of spy games and dress up in ridiculous clothes and build spaceships out of pillows in our living room.  We always hung out together; we were a team.  We still get along well today (though there were some trying days in our earlier teen years) and, while we don?t do everything together, we always find time to share a meal out or see a movie together.

 

            There was still a lot of room for other friends, though.  When we moved to Colorado Springs, the neighborhood kids were friendly and eager to meet the new people.  There were also friends from church, of course.  In middle school, I suffered some brutal teasing and rejection at the hands of some of the ?nice? church kids.  I guess that made up for missing out on all the ?fun? things kids say about each other in public school.  Later on, another local church began offering part-time classes to homeschooling families (such supplemental schools have been rapidly gaining popularity across the country in recent years).  Through Grace Academy, I was able to take speech, drama, chemistry, Spanish, biology, PE and other classes I may have otherwise missed out on in junior high and high school.  These part-time classes also provided a great place to make new friends ? they even had roughly the same schedule as I did, since we were all homeschooled.  This gave my siblings and me a chance to participate in many of the traditional public school activities home schoolers usually miss out on.  We had school plays, choir performances, art competitions and, of course, ruthless scholastic competition between classmates.

 

            Of course, Grace Academy wasn?t the only place we found to do other things.  When we were younger we took horseback riding, swimming and piano lessons.  We were involved with some local homeschooling groups, like the drama group we performed a play with.  And there were always cultural activities to participate in ? local museums, library book clubs, or whatever else we could find.  Fortunately for me, my parents were incisive enough to recognize that being homeschooled doesn?t mean limiting one?s education to what can be learned from any particular curriculum.

 

            Eventually the day came when my homeschooling ended.  Actually, it came a bit early.  I finished high school a couple of months before my seventeenth birthday ? about a year early by the traditional school calendar.  I made the decision toward the end of my sophomore year to skip my last year of high school and go straight to college.  I only needed about three more credits, so I combined my junior and senior years into one.  I performed well on both the SAT and ACT and was accepted into the local University of Colorado campus.  There were times when I wanted to apply to a better school, but my parents were adamant that I stay at home ? after all, I was only seventeen, and just barely that.  So, in the fall of 1998, I began my studies at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs.

 

            My freshman year was, admittedly, intimidating.  I didn?t really know anyone at the school and had heard how much more difficult college is than high school.  I had nightmares about missing the first day of class or of forgetting to turn in an important homework assignment.  I soon found out, though, that college really wasn?t that tough.  That?s not to say that keeping my grades up was easy, but it was doable.  I worried at first that maybe I hadn?t been sufficiently prepared; I?d heard some express doubt as to the adequacy of homeschooling in college preparation.  As I look back, though, I can?t detect any deficiencies in my primary and secondary education.  If anything, I think homeschooling may be part of the reason I?ve done well in college ? throughout middle school and high school I was solely responsible for the vast majority of my schoolwork.  College didn?t seem to be so terribly different from high school, except that I attended a lecture every week and my papers were longer.

 

            I?m now beginning my senior year of college.  My class standing is somewhere in the top three percent at my school and I?m student body co-executive.  I?ve participated in various clubs, completed a political internship and volunteered with church and community organizations.  Sometimes I wonder how things would have been different if I?d gone to public school.  Maybe I could have served on student council or participated in sports.  Perhaps I could have earned awards and honors.  Quite possibly, I would have had more opportunities for advancement and scholastic achievement.  But as I think about it, I realize that none of that really matters.  I?m happy with my life and, for better or worse, homeschooling made me who I am.  Maybe I would have more to be proud of if I?d had the opportunities and experiences public school provides.  Maybe not.  The simple fact is that homeschooling worked for me, as it has worked for countless other young men and women across the country.  Would I change anything about my past?  No.  I?m too excited about my future.

Cynthia

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Re: California judge says no to homeschooling
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2008, 10:58:21 PM »
what if the parent teaches the child something scientifically wrong, like intelligent design? Even if the child decides to study biology later in life, there is no reason to think he won't be able to cope.


I am saying what if the parent teaches a child something like fundamental hatred of another person based on faith.

Coping....is not the point. Directly being taught something is based on one's parental views...does not always give the child a chance to think for themselves.....The genetic code is too close for a parent to objectively teach a child.