California judge says no to homeschooling

[fatman]

You can use decimals and fractions every day if you so choose.  Balancing your checkbook yourself, rather than relying on a bank statement or online bank statement.

How do you plan a budget without fractions?  How do you know what 30% of  your take home is, the money that you should never pay more than for housing (or so I was taught to believe).  I'm not too sure that it's too far of a stretch to think that at least some part, and maybe a large part, of the subprime mess is because some people couldn't do some simple math, or calculate some interest.

How can you go through life that way?

[kimba1]

quite true
a secretary was using a caculator  to figure out 3% of 3k and she freaked when I said $90 right away.
and she has a bachelor`s degree
but It does confirm for me most folks simply dump whatever knowledge they gain unless they actually use it.
the calculator is like the spell checker it`s killing our basic skills
I rarely ever use a calculator
at least writing it out helps me work out the math.

[Cynthia]

Also, we must increase the base pay of every teacher across the country and make the positions more desirable in terms of compensation to people who might like to do the job but don't want to work for pennies and get shot and deal with 40 teenagers all day.

Interestingly enough, teacher pay in private schools is lower than that in public schools, and there are teachers fighting to get jobs in those private schools.

Teachers are fighting to get into the public schools in our city, Ami.

Hmmm, so there ya go...can't broad stroke every situation.

[Cynthia]

but how about attracting good teachers?

The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.  Bad teachers can pass poor students.

But not pass standardized tests.  That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher

No, sirs, it will NOT demonstrate who is and who is not a good teacher. It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.

[Cynthia]

 

What would be the right way?

Actually, even though the word has been used to describe what the NCLB has set into motion for teachers across the board...good or bad....I don't like to use the word( punishment ) when it comes to holding teachers accountable.

 I believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.
There are those teachers who read during class, sit at their desk and chew gum while the kids throw spit wads at each other etc.. Of course then there are those young women who rape young men. Ok....sure I would punish them in varying degrees.

I believe that the NCLB has gone overboard. The fact that ALMOST ALL teachers are negatively affected because of the act is, in reality punitive and helps very few.

The fact that principals are being pressured to get blood out of a turnip through assinine demands and threats, lends itself to the trickle down effect which also harms more than helps.
The premise of the NCLB act is a good one..I still believe that teachers who are BAD APPLES need to be exited chop chop.
I would not PUNISH ....I would simply set up a system to deal with the points that are indeed broken, assist in revamping those broken elements, as the act is trying to do...quite honestly...but I would be realistic and work with common sense.

As it is, the NCLB has been responsible for many good teachers taking a hike, many children left in the dark, and people at one another's throats within the job. The pressure to make that AYP is so great and so unreasonable, that it is PUNITIVE in nature..not proactive...reactive.

BT, there is nothing wrong with holding anyone accountable. The NCLB has not met up to it's progess report,  and with the outrageous expectations THAT I HAVE POSTED before, it simply needs adjusted.

I say, listen to teachers who know how to teach! Hire people to revamp the NCLB act that know what it means to teach a child. In the past 25 years, the school system was a hell of a lot better than it is today..sadly.

[BT]

I believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.

Sounds punitive.

And again, how do you measure performance without testing?

[Cynthia]

I believe the word would be accountable....or you're out.

Sounds punitive.

And again, how do you measure performance without testing?

And again, measuring performance with testing is key.
The fact that children who are not capable of making the same "grade" as some of the peers, is at the heart of the reaction of the act.
To hold ALL CHILDREN accountable to read at grade level no matter what is not reasonable.

So, we disagree in so many aspects of this, BT.

You will not hear me on this issue....and you don't have to.

Your life hasn't been drastically impacted by the outrageous pressures to make a system 'better'.

when ..in fact....it has pressured good teachers to the point of forcing them to leave...punitive?
Not fair. Not right.

teh AYP needs to be adjusted in order to support teachers.....

There is a clear irrational reaction--call it punitive or call it punitive...it's unrealistic, and unjust.

No, perhaps I shall call the act...unjust.
There's a word....

Totally unjust, BT.
I do believe you are not in a place to throw stones, but you will anyway. Frankly, Bill, you will never truly  understand the injustice that occurs. You are not in the classroom. You are not directly affected by the illogical expectations coupled with the similarly outrageous unjust stones that are thrown at teachers who are doing the best damn job they can in the public sector.

But, you go ahead..you, Sirs and Ami...throw those stones based on a stance you hold true.

I am not going to try to explain this to you any longer, dear men. You choose to refrain from understanding me or learning about the very severly broken pieces of the NCLB act..
So...we agree to disagree..

Thanks for the chance to share my passion.

Cynthia

[BT]

To hold ALL CHILDREN accountable to read at grade level no matter what is not reasonable.

What do you do with those that fail?
Pass them on to the next teacher or hold them back until they master the subjects?

[sirs]

but how about attracting good teachers?

The problem you run into is there is no way to factually discern who is and isn't a "good" teacher.  Bad teachers can pass poor students.

But not pass standardized tests.  That will FACTUALLY help demonstrate who is and isn't a good teacher

No, sirs, it will NOT demonstrate who is and who is not a good teacher.

I did not say it was the ONLY means of demonstration.....simply a significant one.  Hard to pass failing students and then have them pass standardized testing, and call yourself a "good teacher"

It's obvious you are not a teacher. You have not clue, with all due respect.

Then, I would expect no further criticizing of Bush and the war in Iraq, since its obvious you're not in the military and apparently have no clue, with all due respect

[Cynthia]

Sirs,

with all due respect....again.

That's silly.

Ok....you don't understand teaching....or any real" element within the culture that is education, educating...and the schooling of children.

I find your stance on this issue to be blatantly transparent in terms of political ignorance. Your reactionary views hold no validity for me.  Your biased opinions towards anything to the political "left" aren't necessarily true. They are your opinion. I speak from fact and experience.

So, I do not have to agree, Sirs..with all due respect. Your views are not correct. You know nothing about the situation, nor do you even make sense, dear man. In terms of what is really happening in the world of teaching, you would have to stop and see that not all teachers are BAD. You seem to have such a negative thread of thougth against the public school educator. hmm, really? does that even make sense?

It does if one is so blatantly prejudiced and ready to gang up on the media driven battle scarred "little guy".

My sense of you  is that you make judgements or assume,  based on your conservative stance, that the NEA, the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM are down for the count. Hands down..no intelligent and worthy discussion within the ranks that could possibly shed light on the issue.

 My gosh, man....why do you think that the issue is so black and white? Is your political prejudice that blind?

War is not the issue here....but you go ahead and make your silly comparisons.

But, I do respect your faith in God. Of course, this is a debate club...sandwiched in between the egos that try to rise to the occassion, but we do agree on some platforms. So, there you go....this isn't about agreeing or not agreeing..it's about one's truth. I stand strong that the NCLB ACT IS FLAWED. Period.

[sirs]

Ok....you don't understand teaching....or any real" element within the culture that is education, educating...and the schooling of children.

And you don't understand military tactics, strategies, or any "real element within the culture of war, fighting a war, and counter moving to the tactics of the enemy".

So, that must mean any criticism you have on the war is largely null and void??  Ignorant even??  You tell me, which is it? 

Why you've adopted this "one must be a teacher in order to properly opine on the education system or dare criticize the NEA", is what's obviously transparent Miss Cynthia.  In fact, I could even argue that my position of critiquing is far more objective than yours on the education system, because I'm not so intimately intertwined with both the system and its union.  Does my objective OPINION trump your professional OPINION?  Of course not.  But neither does yours trump mine

[Amianthus]

Teachers are fighting to get into the public schools in our city, Ami.

Hmmm, so there ya go...can't broad stroke every situation.

Must have changed a lot in the last few years since this article was published.

SANTA FE -- New Mexico's teacher shortage -- already a major concern from Albuquerque to Zuni -- continues to worsen, with rookies dropping out, unqualified people manning more classrooms and increased turnover from year to year, according to a report released today.

And poor, rural schools, many of them already on probation for inadequate academic performance, suffer the most, says the report by the state Department of Education.

"What is true in New Mexico and is true nationally is the kids who need them (good teachers) the most, often end up with the least-qualified teachers," said Peter Winograd, a University of New Mexico professor who managed the report.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The thing is that when there is a teacher shortage (or even a shortage of good teachers), both the state and private schools simply let anyone in. The way a market economy is supposed to work is that when someone with a particular skill is in short supply, you pay more. This doesn't work with teachers, because the state gets to decide who is qualified.

Too few teachers? Just make provisional certificates easier to get. If that isn't enough, Let substitutes work a higher percentage of the time. Anything but actually paying the teachers a decent salary, the kind that might enable them to buy a house where they work, for example, or to have a middle-class standard of living like other professionals,

You can't do this with airline pilots: unqualified pilots would destroy the equipment, themselves and the customers. You can't do it with garbage truck drivers: they'd destroy the trucks, then garbage would pile up on the curbs.

But teachers? they can't crash the school, and the students can't tell the difference between a good one and a bad one, and even if they do, they are not believed.


Teaching is an art, not a science. This means that you can't distinguish between a good teacher and a better one, or a mediocre one and a good one. You can eliminate the alcoholics, the sex offenders, the insane and the totally careless, but standardized tests and multiple choice tests cannot distinguish nuances.

Something similar is also true of learning.

On a multiple test exam, you can't distinguish between a person who has memorized 1000 facts, and someone who knows not only the facts, but how they relate to each other and the big picture.


Good teachers are smart. They realize that they'd be better teaching at Beach High than Ghetto City, even though the Ghetto City kids might need him more. They also realize that being a vice principal pays a lot more than being a classroom teacher, and also is a lot softer gig, filling out a few forms rather than 100 awful essays per week.


.

[BT]

Too few teachers? Just make provisional certificates easier to get. If that isn't enough, Let substitutes work a higher percentage of the time.

The judge said that was a no-no

Oh wait that only applied to home schools.

So we come full circle.

[sirs]

BINGO !!