California judge says no to homeschooling

[kimba1]

not sure it`s illegal for bussiness to charge more  since they use staff to process it so admin cost go into play.
but if it is pitney bowes maybe in trouble or already is

[Amianthus]

not sure it`s illegal for bussiness to charge more  since they use staff to process it so admin cost go into play.

Processing is done by the insurance provider.

Not even consulting groups charge more than the insurance premiums - and they're the ones who would do so if they could get away with it. That leads me to think it's illegal.

[kimba1]

oops
gonna have to call some old friends to see if anybody is still working there.

[Universe Prince]

Ok maybe you're not a fool...but UP??

Wow. I went from wise beyond my years to maybe not a fool. But you're right, maybe I'm not. I'm not sure either.

If you were to rule the school system, competition would be the least of your problems.

Perhaps. I would certainly hope so.

You want THE RIGHT EDUCATION for all?

Stop blaming the people who sweat and work hard to provide such.

I'm not blaming them. And if you'll remember back to the beginning this thread, of the two of us, I was the one defending the parents who sweat and work hard to provide such. You know, homeschoolers. And if you'll go back the article that was the start of this thread (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-homeschool6mar06,1,4399394.story), the teachers' union agreed with the ruling against homeschooling. I'm not blaming the people who sweat and work hard to provide the right education to children. I'm blaming the people who stand in the way of those who want to sweat and work hard to provide the right education to children.

Vouchers will provide a place to run and find a new chance?

You think?

I do think. Thanks for asking. And I think vouchers will allow parents more control over where and how their children are educated. I happen to also think that would be a good thing. If you think that is wrong, please explain why.

Pay the teachers more. Raise the standards for the parents and see how much of a 'chance' your future children will have then.

I'd be happy to do so, provided we can have tests to see whether the students are actually learning and then fire teachers who are not doing their job. That will raise standards. Do you object?

What are your qualifications to lecture about the system that fails a child?

Well, for one, I'm a product (at least in part) of the system. For another, being maybe not a fool, when I see the reports that a large percentage of 12th grade students fail a test of 10th grade English, it indicates to me the system has major problems. Kinda like if the eggs at the market stink of sulfur, I don't have to be an oologist to know there is something wrong with the eggs.

Sit in on a classroom where the child is hungry. Sit in on a classroom where a child has been beaten blue and no can prove it. Sit in on a classroom where a child struggles to smile and find peace of mind.

I'm curious as to how you expect to solve those problems by paying the teachers more. Do better paid teachers care more?

Damn you people who think VOUCHERS are the answer.

I call you fools.

No need to hold back. Say what you really think.

Seriously though, you can call us fools all the damn day long, but that does nothing to prove us wrong. What was that you said about sit in a classroom "where a child struggles to smile and find peace of mind"? Tell me, Cynthia, the parents who want vouchers so they can send their child to a different school, what do you think they want? Do you think their goal is to screw the public school system, or to try something to get a better education in a better environment for their child? Is that foolish? I think it is not. You tell me I should not be "blaming the people who sweat and work hard to provide" the right education for children. Providing that is exactly what parents who want vouchers are trying to do. That is not foolishness. But in many cases it is desperation because many of those parents have no other way to get their child out of a bad school. You say to me, "You have no idea of what the down and dirty struggles run amuck in this world of 'learning'". Well, those parents who want vouchers, they know it all too well. And they are looking for a way out. Those parents are hunting, praying, begging for a solution that will help their child, and people like you want to berate them for fools? You'll get no sympathy from me there.

I get pissed when I read such words.....IF YOU could RUN things??...BUt YOU CAN'T??

Not what I said. I never claimed to want to run things. Go back and read what I said.

God, thank God you can't. UP.
 

I probably would make a very poor administrator. But in any case, you haven't made a decent anti-voucher argument, Cynthia. You haven't really made any anti-voucher argument. And if the best you have to offer is "pay teachers more", then you haven't got a solution. I suggest you stop blaming and damning the people who do.

[Universe Prince]

Um, excuse me, but where did Cynthia's post go? She had reply #303. That post is gone and my reply to her is now reply #303. What happened?

[BT]

she has the ability to delete her own posts. i suspect that is what she did.

[Universe Prince]

Huh. Okay.

[Cynthia]

Huh. Okay.

I did delete them, after thinking I probably have spoken too much on the issue here.

I felt it was time to bury that dead horse.

BUt, thank you for replying to the post, UP.
I am passionate about this issue.

I do not feel there is anything wrong with vouchers.

If a voucher helps a child get a better education, I suppose tbat's fine.
As for paying a teacher more. I think that is important, but my direct stand on this whole issue has not been on pay for teachers. My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.

I believe we need to focus more on how we assess schools and teachers. I feel strongly that we need to bring back a quality of education that has been taken out because of the extreme focus on test scores and the ramifications there in.

I know for sure that the educators in my "village" have always aimed for the highest and best expectations.

 But, becasue of the unjust "expectations" of the NCLB act, I see the difference in the quality of education we are forced to give our kids than ever before. THere is the irony of the 'act'.  We are forced to teach only the subject areas that will bring test scores up. Many schools across the country are pressured instead of provided with support.... and for what? So the schools are not put on probabtionary action, restrictive action, etc?  That's a shame. No wonder vouchers are going to fly off the top shelf. No wonder homeschooling is coming into its own. No wonder people feel that education and PS's are lacking. The issue I have with the ACT is basically the devil in the details.

  Currently, the pressure to make a grade that in based on such unjust measures, is doing more harm than good for the kids. I posted those unjust details of the NCLB act a while back. I will find more again on this today, as I am on spring break and have time to devote to this.
I had written another post last evening to Sirs which was a sort of apology (long winded in tone, however ha!)....so I deleted it. But, I do admire Sirs and you for your stance on this issue.

[Universe Prince]

I am passionate about this issue.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Cynthia]

I am passionate about this issue.

Nothing wrong with that.

Hey, UP...I just posted more read up. THanks, dear.

[Cynthia]

I had posted this article in a previous post around Easter weekend. The reason I posted it is because it supports my point in this argument. The issue I have is not totally with teacher accountability or teacher pay or whether or not families have the right to home school or take advantage of vouchers. I was the first to admit that homeschooling is actually not such a bad idea. Our schools are forced in the public sector to teach to tests. I know that sounds crazy, but we are on that hot seat and it is more like an electric chair.

The issue I have is based on some of the "provisions" within the act itself. Public school teachers are  limited in what they can teach.  Reading, and Math. That's a crime! We used to teach it all! That's my beef!  I believe that "crime" to be the fault of an unreasonable and unjust pressure to score high OR HIT THE ROAD mentality.




'No Child' Act Needs Improvement

By Michael DeWitte
Chairman, N.M. Business Roundtable for Educational Excellence
    The New Mexico Business Roundtable for Education Excellence supports the lofty and laudable goals of the No Child Left Behind Act.
    However, under the auspices of "continuous improvement," we believe that there are a few changes that must be made as Congress addresses the reauthorization of the bill's provisions.
    We applaud the bill's provisions requiring that student achievement data be disaggregated and reported by student subgroups as well as for all students at a grade level as these requirements have made school and school district performance more transparent than ever before. This benefits teachers, administrators, parents and communities.
    Yet some provisions of NCLB may do a disservice to schools and to the students and families they serve.
    We asked officials at Rio Rancho Public Schools to present us with their thoughts and recommendations as to NCLB and found their approach and candor refreshing and logical. We have adopted those shown below and have shared them with the U.S. Department of Education. We now share them with our communities.
   
Students whose cognitive abilities do not match their chronological age are stressed and frustrated by having to take tests that, through no fault of their own or of their teachers, they cannot pass. The way in which assessments are administered to students with disabilities and the grade level at which students are assessed should be driven by the student's Individualized Education Plan, as required under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. The percentage of students with disabilities allowed to take alternate assessments should be increased and driven by the number of students in a district that qualify as opposed to an artificial "cap."   
English-language learner programs are severely underfunded and under-supported. NCLB has no provisions for students to be tested in mathematics with assessments in their home language, which means these students are tested with an English-language math assessment. This greatly handicaps non-English speakers who may understand the mathematical concepts but have limited fluency in English.
   
NCLB requires all schools to demonstrate 95 percent participation of all students and all subgroups on all sections of the required assessments. No "rounding" or tolerance is allowed in calculating participation. In terms of whether a school or district makes AYP? adequate yearly progress? participation is weighted equally with academic factors. It is important that some flexibility be allowed in determining if schools and districts have met the intent of the law before imposing sanctions based solely on the participation rate.
   
A single student's score can be counted in up to five of the nine subgroups recognized by NCLB in New Mexico. This can create a skewed picture of how well or poorly a school performs and weights the scores of some students more than others when determining school ratings. Each student should be counted in only one subgroup of which the student is a member for the purpose of determining whether a school makes AYP.
    NCLB should require the delivery of test data to schools and school districts in time for it to be used to change instructional practices before the next school year? preferably before the end of the school year in which the test is administered.
   
Each state develops its own tests and its own criteria, within the federal law, for determining what makes or does not make AYP. Therefore the results might earn a school sanctions in one state while it would make AYP in another. There is an inherent inconsistency in the implementation of NCLB procedures by the U.S. Department of Education. Also, the current system makes it very difficult for the public to appropriately compare schools and districts. If an "exception to policy" is granted to one state on a matter applicable to most (if not all) states, then the same "exception to policy" should be granted to all states without individual states having to submit their requests and in-depth documentation to justify their requests.
   
The label "AYP Not Met" tells the public little about whether schools are truly failing. Schools that fall short in just a couple of areas receive the same label as those with issues across several subgroups and academic disciplines. A more comprehensive means of rating schools would help the public better understand how those schools are performing and not demoralize hard-working teachers, administrators, parents and students who overall did well, but missed AYP in just a couple of categories. Schools and districts could be assigned a grade or other designation based on objective criteria, such as a percentage of data points on which the school made AYP.
    These suggestions would only improve the implementation of NCLB with a sense of reality and fairness to all

[Universe Prince]

My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.

A one size fits all mentality being exactly what I'm arguing against, which is why I support vouchers, school competition and homeschooling.

[Cynthia]

My gripe is more about the punitive actions based on the need to pressure all in teh system to meet a one size fits all mentality for the gov.

A one size fits all mentality being exactly what I'm arguing against, which is why I support vouchers, school competition and homeschooling.

Well, then I agree, UP.

My passionate stance here is WHY CAN'T WE FIX THE PS system so families that can not homeschool, or move their children around the city (vouchers) can still get the best??
I say we need to support what is already part of a great infrastructure. Teh Public Schools. The way the government is going about it, isn't good enough. That's my beef.

[Universe Prince]

My passionate stance here is WHY CAN'T WE FIX THE PS system so families that can not homeschool, or move their children around the city (vouchers) can still get the best??

We can. And there are people trying. But there is a lot of opposition to change by the established order, which is to say school boards and teachers' unions.

I say we need to support what is already part of a great infrastructure. Teh Public Schools. The way the government is going about it, isn't good enough. That's my beef.

The way the federal government goes about it will never be good enough, imo. It shouldn't even be meddling in the issue. Education at the local level needs local solutions.

[Cynthia]

"The label "AYP Not Met" tells the public little about whether schools are truly failing. Schools that fall short in just a couple of areas receive the same label as those with issues across several subgroups and academic disciplines. A more comprehensive means of rating schools would help the public better understand how those schools are performing and not demoralize hard-working teachers, administrators, parents and students who overall did well, but missed AYP in just a couple of categories. Schools and districts could be assigned a grade or other designation based on objective criteria, such as a percentage of data points on which the school made AYP.
    These suggestions would only improve the implementation of NCLB with a sense of reality and fairness to all."

This quote from the news article speaks for me, UP. The article doesn't bring in how to fix the problem, necessarily. I would LOVE TO read such an article!

We need to hear more from candidates on this problem, imo. This issue is not going to go away. The playing field for the homeschooling venue vs the public schools is simply not fair.