Author Topic: The Devil made him do it  (Read 12350 times)

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hnumpah

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2006, 08:20:48 PM »
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Michael Tee

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2006, 08:36:33 PM »
<<now simply caters to American Bashing, anti-semetic tripe, and calls it diplomacy. >>

I think you're just repeating the standard Zionist/neo-con/rightwing venomous nonsense without even understanding it.  For example, what do you mean, "caters to" American Bashing or "caters to" anti-Semitism?  

The UN was conceived as a forum where nations would meet to attempt to resolve disputes peacefully as an alternative to war.  Collective action was to replace unilateral war-making.  

Of course, if debate were to replace warfare, there would be some verbal harshness - - that's inevitable.  How does the UN "cater to" anti-Americanism or anti-Semitism, other than by permitting free debate between adversaries and in the larger General Assembly or Security Council without censorship or preconditions, as an alternative to war?  

"Catering to" a particular POV would imply that some favouritism is shown to it, or that it is sought out and invited in, in preference to other POVs.   Show me where or how the UN "caters to" anti-Semitism or America Bashing.

sirs

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2006, 09:16:18 PM »
And I think you're just repeating the same pathetic Anti-American anti-Israel dren, you've honed to such a specialty.  Yes, the UN was conceived in the attempt to deal with global crisis, with hopefully now military intervention.  Problem is, in some cases such intervention is required, and in those cases where you mandate resolution after resolution, with not a wit of enforcing such, subsequently produces a noncredible voice & agency behind those resolutions.  In other words, the current form of the UN

And catering to is precisely what the UN has become.  An organization that indeed finds favoritism in anything anti-American or anti-Israel.  Heaven forbid if Lieberman ever became President

Robin Williams had a great routine when he brought up the UN, during one of his video stand ups at the Met.  It's like an organization on valium.  S t o p............o r   w e l l   h a v e   t o   s a y   s t o p   a g a i n
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2006, 09:54:22 PM »
    If asked many in this world would indeed say "Yankee go Home" is what they want , but do not forget that most of these will also add " and take me with you !".

Amianthus

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2006, 11:48:40 PM »
And that's really sad, considering how much goodwill we had coming our way after 9-11.

ROFL

As I pointed out already, a British friend was in Italy watching a soccer game on 9/11. They showed the towers collapsing on the stadium's big screen and the crowds cheered.

Not much goodwill there on 9/11.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2006, 12:19:23 AM »
sirs:  I asked you a pretty specific question:  Show me how the UN "caters to" anti-Semitism and "America Bashing."

Here was your response:
1.  I am just repeating myself
2.  I am repeating "pathetic" anti-American anti-Israel "dren" (whatever "dren" may represent in your childish lexicon, I will assume for the purposes of this discussion it is not well-reasoned, impeccably sourced, irrefutable argument.)
3.  I have honed my "pathetic" anti-American anti-Israel "dren" to a specialty . . .

Aww, geeze, I am getting kind of tired waiting for an answer to what SEEMED to be a fairly simple and straightforward question.  Maybe the guy is just incapable of formulating a cogent response to a simple question.  Maybe he thinks an ad hominem attack IS a cogent response to a simple question . . .And then,

well, not an answer to my simple question, but what seems to be a subject at least worthy of some kind of intelligent debate:  the UN's seeming ineffectiveness, the resolutions it passes and passes again and again only to see them broken, defied and scoffed at.  Well that's not too bad, we could debate it sometime in the future, why IS the UN so wimpy?  Maybe we should have a more muscular UN, a NUCULER-ARMED UN, you know, defy our Resolution once, shame on you, defy it twice, MUSHROOM CLOUD TIME, RAGHEAD FAGGOTS, you were only polluting this fucking planet anyway and now you're history.  Maybe THAT'S what the founders of the UN really had in mind, but their cowardly successors were too politically correct to execute until one day a man named John with a walrus mustache strode into their sissified halls and set them straight.  Taught 'em the AMERICAN way of problem-solving.  Yeah, but still.  What about MY  question . . . is it not WORTHY of an answer?

Onward I plunged.  

And then suddenly:  <<And catering to is precisely what the UN has become.  >>  Was this it?  Was this sirs' long-awaited answer to my question?  At first glance, it didn't SEEM to be.  Wasn't he just repeating himself again?  Ah, but I had failed to appreciate the subtlety of sirs' thought processes - - not only is the UN catering, sirs tells us, but catering is PRECISELY what it is doing.  Yet still those nagging doubts . . .  is he not just repeating himself more emphatically??  And if he is, how does THAT answer my question?

I didn't have to wait long for the mystery to clear up, however.  There it was, in the very next sentence:  <<An organization [the UN] that indeed finds favour in anything anti-American or anti-Israel. >>   (OK, that's not the exact quote, I had to clean up a little malapropism here to make some sense out of it, but it's pretty damn close.  I didn't alter the SENSE of what sirs was saying.)  That was sirs' answer to my question.  Show me how the UN "caters to" anti-Semitism and "America Bashing" and the answer (albeit buried under about 16 tons of irrelevant drivel) is that it "finds favour in" (i.e., loves to hear) "anything anti-American or anti-Israel."

But isn't saying that the UN has been "finding favour in anything anti-American or anti-Israel" pretty much the same thing as saying that it "caters to anti-Semitism or "America Bashing?"  Wasn't sirs just cleverly repeating his original falsehood in a different way?  And is repeating a statement the same thing as proving its truth?  This is really important now.  Haphazardly, we have stumbled upon the key "reasoning" process of the conservative Republican mind.

You see, to a conservative, things aren't true because they can be objectively verified.  To a Republican, to a conservative, things are true BECAUSE A CONSERVATIVE TELLS YOU THEY ARE TRUE.  If sirs makes an absolutely ridiculous and completely unverifiable statement about the UN and he is asked to prove it - - he doesn't worry, like a normal, sane, rational human being would worry, "Omigod, how can I PROVE it, it's totally false and absolutely absurd and I just made it up because it sounded good and THERE IS NO FUCKING PROOF, I'm busted!!!"  No, the conservative doesn't worry about stupid little trifles like that because there is no such thing as reality anyway, or more accurately there IS, but it's whatever they SAY it is.  Reality?  FUCK reality, reality is whatever's in my fucking head or comes out of my fucking mouth at the present moment.

But then I guess what I'm describing is not conservatism but prejudices, unexamined beliefs that are not grounded in reality but that we don't challenge in ourselves because we believe they ARE reality.  And then it's not just conservatives or Christians or Muslims who are guilty of that kind of thinking, it's a way of thought that can affect any of us.  Except for yours truly.  

Hey sirs, I might have taken a few shots at you while I was writing this, but I sincerely appreciate your willingness to step up to the plate and speak your mind, knowing that smug liberal assholes like myself are just waiting to rip into you.  I might not agree with much of what you say or think but I don't disrespect it, which I wanted to say here because I felt that it might not have been all that apparent from the general tone of what I was writing.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 12:25:21 AM by Michael Tee »

sirs

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2006, 02:07:06 AM »
You asked, I answered.  My apologies if my answers don't meet your alternate reality requirements.  The level of of anti-American & Anti-Israel rhetoric that passes thru the assembly speeches, that get not a whiff of condemnation, the frequent crticisms, when not condemning Isreal & America for supposed massive Human Rights violations, while behadings and burning alive by islamic terrorists and rogue regimes get a virtual pass from criticism, folks like Syria & Lybia (or was it Sudan) given prominent positions on the UN Human Rights board, while Isreal is kept off, the continued placating of Arab nations to demands regarding the Israeli flag, garbage like that, that goes on and on and on and on.  Chavez and his garbage was just more of the same

Glad you had fun with your monologue though
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2006, 04:59:20 AM »
Actually, I thought it was funny.

Got to hand it to Chavez, the man has a sense of humour.


"World figures must be wise enough to understand that their words can ignite a tinderbox if they aren't careful. "

_JS

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2006, 09:45:19 AM »
Has Chavez ignited a tinderbox of violence through his words?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Michael Tee

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2006, 12:11:02 PM »
<<The level of of anti-American & Anti-Israel rhetoric that passes thru the assembly speeches, that get not a whiff of condemnation, >>

Well, first of all I don't even know if that's true, the "not a whiff" thing.   How do you know there's "not a whiff" of criticism for anti-American or anti-Israel rhetoric in the UN?  Do you actually read through all the speeches that follow every outburst of objectionable rhetoric, looking for whiffs?  I don't think so.

But even if there is very little criticism of anti-American or anti-Israel rhetoric, what does that tell you?  Sounds to me like a lot of people all over the world are mightily pissed off about what the U.S. and Israel are doing and those opinions are virtually unanimous.   If you were the parent of a juvenile delinquent and many teachers in the school were complaining about your son, and few if any defending him, would you write them off as a bunch of whiners or complainers or would you start to think, hey, maybe there is something objectionable in what this kid is up to?

<< the frequent crticisms, when not condemning Isreal & America for supposed massive Human Rights violations, >>

WHOA, what do you mean "supposed" massive human rights violations?  How massive does the violation have to be, before it loses the "supposed" charges?  The State of Israel, in its 39-year-old military occupation of the West Bank is a massive violation of the human rights of over three million Arabs who live there, what is "supposed" about that?  It's also a repeated violation of long-standing UN resolutions, which you seem to be upset about (when others violate them.)  The bombing of Beirut, that was petty? 

Secret prisons and torture chambers, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, the invasion of Iraq, the occupation of Iraq, the needless deaths of 40,000 Iraqi civilians, they're supposed to pass un-noticed in the UN while they endlessly occupy themselves with who beheaded Daniel Pearl?

<<while behadings and burning alive by islamic terrorists and rogue regimes get a virtual pass from criticism,>>

Yeah.  Right.  NOBODY, not the U.S., not Israel, not Great Britain or France or Italy, EVER denounced "terrorism" in the UN.  They're ruled out of order as soon as they raise the subject.  Terrorism is a forbidden subject in the proceedings of the United Nations.  Never been MENTIONED there, let alone criticized.  And you're from WHAT planet, again?

<<folks like Syria & Lybia (or was it Sudan) given prominent positions on the UN Human Rights board, while Isreal is kept off,>>

Well, WHICH of those countries (Syria, Libya, Sudan) has been massively violating the human rights of THREE MILLION PEOPLE for THIRTY-NINE YEARS as Israel has?  It would be absolutely outrageous for Israel, which is in flagrant continuous violation of specific UN resolutions regarding the West Bank and its 3 million inhabitants, to be given a seat on the Human Rights Commission.

<<the continued placating of Arab nations to demands regarding the Israeli flag, garbage like that,>>

Sorry, you got me there - - what demands?

<<Chavez and his garbage was just more of the same>>

I'm still waiting for one negative response from real people in the real world.  One person who was not delighted by what Chavez said.

Plane

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2006, 02:21:33 PM »
Has Chavez ignited a tinderbox of violence through his words?


Of Course not, he was criticiseing mature adults ,responsible people who can tell the diffrence between form and substance.

_JS

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2006, 03:24:35 PM »
No, he was making a joke in a situation where the butt of the joke is not a part of a an unstable or violent region.

Note that there have been some on the right wing in the United States who have called for violence against President Chavez. I'd hardly call them responsible, mature adults.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2006, 07:48:44 PM »
No, he was making a joke in a situation where the butt of the joke is not a part of a an unstable or violent region.

Note that there have been some on the right wing in the United States who have called for violence against President Chavez. I'd hardly call them responsible, mature adults.


[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


So responsible people do not make jokes at the expense of the unstable?


I see this as giveing credit for sanityand matureity to President Bush and his supporters.


Or by  " unstable and violent" were you refering to a region being earthquake prone?

sirs

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2006, 03:25:47 AM »
JAY AMBROSE: The devil made him do it
Scripps Howard News Service
Published Thursday, September 21, 2006
Comments (0) Add Comment
(SH) - Until reading about Hugo Chavez's U.N. speech the other day, the craziest reference to the devil I had ever seen was on the front page of a supermarket tab. "DEVIL ESCAPES HELL," it said in all-caps, super-large type. Under the headline was a picture of smoke pouring out of a great, big hole in the ground. I couldn't help laughing.

It's hard to laugh at Chavez's speech saying President Bush was the devil, though, because this clown-in-chief of Venezuela is in a position to inflict a whole lot of pain on people - he has been busily doing that very thing - and it's hard to grasp why U.N. delegates applauded him. Are they of the same ilk as the ignorant, gullible souls who would buy that supermarket tab to get the real goods on satanic doings? Maybe so, maybe so.

Large numbers of these delegates, after all, represent tyrannies chiefly notable for abusing their own people - sometimes slaughtering them, usually impoverishing them, always ensuring they don't get uppity about their rights - and all the time blaming their national misery on those other lands that have found prosperity through constitutional order, liberty and free markets. They may hold their tongues when genocide is afoot in some desperate country much like their own, but loudly curse the wealthy and powerful United States.

When Chavez tells such an audience that the devil spoke from the same platform the previous day, makes the sign of the cross over his heart and says "this place still smells of sulfur," he is playing to this covetous spite, hoping his theatrics will win him a world standing that doesn't notice the horrendous mess he has made of things in Venezuela as its president.

"I think we could call a psychiatrist to analyze yesterday's statement made by the president of the United States," Chavez said. "As the spokesman of imperialism, he came to share his nostrums, to try to preserve the current pattern of domination, exploitation and pillage of the people of the world."

Was it exploitative or dominating for Bush to call for establishment of a Palestinian state that would exist democratically side by side with Israel? Was it a nostrum for him to call for strengthened peacekeeping forces in Darfur, where 200,000 have died from hate campaigns and some 2 million more rendered homeless? Did he have pillage in mind when he said Iran deserves democracy and a thriving economy instead of leadership that funds terrorists and seeks to construct nuclear weapons?

We know how Chavez stands on that last issue because, on a multi-country trip, he stopped over in Iran and out-ranted that country's clown-in-chief, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. In still another instance of using the word "devil," he said that's what resided inside the people of Israel. Self-revealed as an anti-Semite from utterances spoken elsewhere, he characterized the Israelis as "cowards" and "murderers" and called for God to throw "lightning bolts" at them. A nuclear bomb or two would probably suit him fine, as well.

Chavez has one thing going for him back home. High oil prices. In oil-rich Venezuela, they have kept the economy humming, although Chavez's socialist enthusiasms have increased poverty. He operates in extraordinary, undemocratic secrecy, presides over an outlandishly corrupt government, doesn't allow the press to say unpleasant things about him, has essentially made the courts and legislature his playthings, has wrecked the lives of ordinary people opposed to his rule and buttresses his populism with threats as necessary, various reports tell us. Those reports also tell us that he has a considerable following and came to power through an election, while reminding us that he once tried to come to power through a military coup.

You might think Chavez is just one more harmless fool, but Venezuelans are suffering, and if he grows in global stature - if, for instance, Venezuela gets Latin America's seat on the U.N. Security Council as he wishes - he could expand that suffering to others. The hope has to be that mature, rational judgments will catch up with him and squash his career, causing him to look for excuses. Someone might then tell this lover of devil references about the line used by the late comedian Flip Wilson to escape blame in sketches about his mistakes being found out.

"The devil made me do it," dear, old Flip would say.


http://www.islandpacket.com/24hour/opinions/story/3378518p-12428135c.html

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: The Devil made him do it
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2006, 04:08:12 AM »
    If he is all that bad , why should the US be so lonely in opposeing him?


     Is all the rest of the world depending on us to point out things like these or they will be un noticed?



         I wonder if it isn't so.