Author Topic: Economic Disaster Looms  (Read 16050 times)

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larry

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2006, 06:11:23 PM »
You think the Stock Market is a safer investment then a national trust?

larry

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2006, 06:24:45 PM »
Two years of unemployment over ten percent will end the SS forever,

Unemployment is not a problem, the baby boomers are retiring, remember. Not having enough workers is more likely the problem.

Plane

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2006, 06:42:14 PM »
You think the Stock Market is a safer investment then a national trust?


Under the present circumstances , yes very much so.


If the Stock market were to do what the SS is about to do there would be nothing to produce taxes at all.

Plane

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2006, 06:44:57 PM »
Two years of unemployment over ten percent will end the SS forever,

Unemployment is not a problem, the baby boomers are retiring, remember. Not having enough workers is more likely the problem.


How can you say that unemployment will cause no problem when there is already a problem with haveing too few workers to support the system with 95 out of an hundred working?

How would there be enough when only 90 of an hundred are working when 95 is already projected to be a failure mode?

larry

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2006, 09:28:54 PM »
How can you say that unemployment will cause no problem

As the boomers retire, their Jobs will need to be filled. We will have more people leaving the work force than coming into the work force. There will be no (unemployment) problem. We may in fact have to allow more immigrants into the country to fill the void. So, for every person who retires someone is going to have to fill their job. The question should be, where are the workers coming from? Just because someone retires does not mean there old job disappears.

kimba1

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2006, 09:44:31 PM »
that`s happening now
alot of jobs are open now,but there is no real programs to get local people to get these jobs.
what i mean is we have no training programs to make people qualified for these job.
ex. bio-tech is said in the near future to be the big trend for jobs.
but have anyone notice no serious push to get people ready to get these jobs.
nobody is outright saying to train in that field.
I`m the only guy in my immediate area I know with a somewhat medical background.
I`ve asked manytimes in the past whats the last trend for jobs
and i always get look it up
it`s like people are scared to answer that question.



Amianthus

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2006, 10:37:35 PM »
So, for every person who retires someone is going to have to fill their job.

Not true.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2006, 12:36:01 AM »
So, for every person who retires someone is going to have to fill their job.

Not true.


Is this just too simple to explain?


Fewer workers ,whether because of a lack of people to work or a lack of jobs either one reduces the resorce that can be tapped.

Amianthus

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2006, 07:46:32 AM »
Is this just too simple to explain?

Many jobs are being replaced by automation. Not every retiring worker is being replaced. Heck, companies are letting workers go that they no longer need - they're not even waiting for retirement.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2006, 01:33:33 PM »
Quote
Why is Economics less exact than animal husbandry?

You cannot know how many calves a particular cow will produce , but you can rely on stistics to tell you within reasonable error how many calves a heard can produce.

Although the huge number of individual choices involved produces a haze on the numbers , the great number of people makeing the choices firms up the stats quite a bit.

I'm not an expert on animal husbandry, so I want to make that very clear. I'm going to go out on a limb though and say that economics, like psychology, involves assumptions based on the human mind. Now, there are occasions where it doesn't seem so, but the human mind really is quite a bit more complex than the bovine mind.

Population theories have existed for a great many years in the biological sciences. The equations, as you have indicated, are rather reliable given known variables.

Economics is not so amazingly sharp at predicting the future. It is rather useful at explaining what has happened in the past. For example, the Asian Tiger collapse was not readily predicted, but can be explained by a few economic explanations. Black Wednesday wasn't predicted, but certainly can be explained.

Short-term projections are also more accurate and computer modeling can be done to give moderately accurate figures for something like sales-tax revenue (barring something like Hurricane Katrina).

Yet, economics is not a science. Yours and Ami's quest to make it one is similar to asking why sociology is not the same as physics, or why philosophy is not the same as statistics.

Unless you truly believe in pure reductionism to its very core, then it will simply never be.
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Amianthus

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2006, 01:42:40 PM »
Economics is not so amazingly sharp at predicting the future.

Neither is quantum mechanics. As a matter of fact, quantum mechanics has as a core principal the "Heisenberg uncertainty principle" - you cannot know both the position and velocity of a subatomic particle accurately. Another core principal is that of the randomness of actions of subatomic particles.

Yet, it's amazingly accurate at predicting what large groups of subatomic particles will do.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2006, 01:50:03 PM »
You certainly cannot predict everything that will happen economicly.


But when there is no reserve and there is a trend to tax fewer people on and on as fewer are availible to tax.

And there is as growing number of people supported by this tax.

And neither of these trends is going to slow or change .

We do have absolute certainty , the Social Security system as it is will fail.


You are only right in that the date is hard to predict , a period of high unemployment wold cause the failure to happen immediately.
And certainly.

Twenty years of uninterrupted good employment rates might mean that Social Security  will last fifteen years , how many periods of fifty years with no low employment periods have there ever been?

I suppose you might say that the science is inexact and there are experts that disagree so we should do nothing untill the science is exact and the experts all agree on all the details.

Next tell me that Golbal warming predictions are the result of exact science with all experts agreeing?

Amianthus

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2006, 01:50:20 PM »
Yet, economics is not a science.

I like the section in Wikipedia about economics as being a science.

"However, many recognized people like the renowned philosopher of science Karl Popper, has argued that any system of theories which allows itself to be disproven is indeed scientific. It is also argued by many, that difficulty in proving many hypotheses come [sic] occur in the natural sciences too, not only in the social sciences. In general, economists reply that while this aspect presents serious difficulties, they do in fact test their hypotheses using statistical methods such as econometrics and data generated in the real world.[9] Some have argued that difficulty in this estimation implies economics is not a soft science, the field simply lacks the controllability of other sciences, and thus has greater difficulty in gathering and establishing evidence. The field of experimental economics has seen efforts to test at least some predictions of economic theories in a simulated laboratory setting – an endeavour which earned Vernon Smith the Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel in 2002."

[9] Harvard University Department of Economics — Al Roth - Gund Professor of Economics and Business Administration, Harvard Economics Department and Harvard Business School, accessed May 2006

Article
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2006, 01:56:35 PM »
Astronomy is a science , no ability to experiment at all .



Have you heard that NASA is going back to repair the Hubble?

_JS

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Re: Economic Disaster Looms
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2006, 02:24:32 PM »
Economics is NOT  Natural Science!
(It is technology of Social Science.)

Science is a process of formulating models that predict outcomes in a natural system under certain conditions, and then testing them to see if the future predictions agree. However, the goal is to find how the model is inadequately representing the natural system. When the model is refuted, it is adjusted to form a new model from what is learned about the system. Since there is an underlying system that is being approximated by the models, there is an "objective reality" (exists independently of human conceptualization) to be described by conceptual models. The models evolve representations of the relationships and features that are defined by the system. Models are useful to humans. Models are respected when they better reflect the nature of the system.
Since Descartes we have approached the task of developing models as if the systems were mechanical. This means that the properties of one part are inherent in its composition and individual properties, unaffected by the surroundings. We can study the whole system a part at a time, assemble what we have learned into a more comprehensive model. The more extensive the parts and the quality of the model's components, the better model should become.

As complex systems have been recognized and are being studied, we are beginning to appreciate that both living and physical systems are not well approximated by Cartesian approaches. A model composed of parts that are independently describable is inadequate because the system has extensive interactions among the components. Therefore, the features of a part of the system are partly determined by the components, and partly determined by the conditions surrounding the components. That is, the components have properties that partly depend on the context in which they exist. To understand responses we need to consider the entire system at once.

Nevertheless, the reality of science is a physical universe with underlying determinable properties. Only our approach to study reflects the difference between Cartesian science and complex systems. In complex systems, the system evolves and there is an "arrow of time" that prevents "retro-dictions" (predicting the conditions in the past that led to present states) and long range pre-dictions are impossible.

On the other hand economics is an artifact of human imagination, and the agreement among certain humans who "play the games" together -- thereby it is a social technology. There is no underlying physical reality other than what is identified by the players to be components. Granted, the interactions within the system may be complex, and the economic properties are determined by what people study. Nevertheless, in the economic properties are determined by and limited only by the beliefs of the "players." To build economic models one must assume certain features, and the models become part of the generators of the results. Since they are not inherently tied to the physical and biological realities, they may fail arbitrarily as the physical and biological world view of humans change -- or as people believe the physical and biological world exists. Economics in large part reflects human belief systems. When physical and biological constraints become seriously constrained for humans, economics becomes irrelevant. The game ends.

Dr. Dick Richardson
 
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.