Author Topic: Oooopsie  (Read 5651 times)

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Brassmask

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2008, 12:19:01 PM »
>>Florida and Michigan, either of their own volition or at the behest of the Clinton campaign, purposely moved up their primaries in order to challenge the chokehold that Iowa and New Hampshire have on the process.<<

You know Brass, nobody in the democratic leadership ever DREAMED something like this would happen. Like most people they figured Mrs. Clinton was a shoe in. So who cared if Michigan and Florida don't count. It won't matter anyway ... right?

Well, the chickens have come home to roost as they say. Personally I find it hilarious that democrats are disinfranchising millions of African Americans while they're tearing down a Black candidate for president. I laugh myself to sleep over it.

 :D

You're using information that is technically true to come up with conclusions that are patently false.  Perhaps no one ever dreamed something "like this" would happen.  I happen to think that Hillary and her team did or at the very least HOPED it would.  I think that perhaps even as far back as Howard Dean's candidacy for the chair of the DNC.

The disenfranchisement, if you want to call it that, is unfortunate but the people to blame for that are the heads of the parties in the two states of FL and MI.  They knew full well the rules going into their decisions to move up the dates.  The rules states they must not or they will be barred from the convention and their delegates won't vote.  They broke the rules and now they must pay the price.  They should have listened to the theme from Barretta.

Even I myself, surmised that Hillary would steamroll the primaries and when she didn't I was stunned.  Now that may count towards your statement of "nobody...ever dreamed something like this would happen" but I don't think it does.  For my part, I'm elated that she hasn't and may lose the nomination altogether.

I'm satisfied that all is going fine right now.  It was a good thing for the states to move up to challenge the IO and NH chokehold.  It is a good thing that Howard Dean is sticking to the rules.  It is a good thing, in my opinion, that Hillary is not, at the moment, winning.  I hope that the delegates will get seated but with even amounts of them committed to Obama so as to be a wash when they are counted.


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2008, 12:56:03 PM »


Democrats Self-Destruct in Lose-Lose Florida Case:
by Ann Woolner

March 19 (Bloomberg) -- To watch Democrats poised to plunge themselves into yet another avoidable defeat, come with me to a high-ceilinged courtroom, dark with finely carved wood.

Two lawyers, both devoted Democrats, both representing other devoted Democrats, are locked in litigation. Three men in black robes sit in a raised bench above the attorneys asking why their court has been dragged in to referee a family fight.

This panel of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta will decide whether (or, more likely, how) to kill a lawsuit filed by a party activist in Tampa, Florida, against the Democratic National Committee and the Florida Democratic Party.

Why do Democrats need Republicans for a fight, when they have each other?

Victor DiMaio is asking courts to force the DNC to seat Florida's delegation to the national nominating convention. The DNC has refused because the state party defied national rules by holding its primary before it was supposed to.

``I just want my vote to count,'' DiMaio told reporters after the argument earlier this week. He voted for John Edwards, by the way.

DiMaio wants all the 1.7 million votes cast in the Jan. 29 Democratic primary in Florida to count, too. So he is trying to persuade federal judges to butt in.

Already one judge has said no thanks, citing a glaring error in DiMaio's suit, filed last August. DiMaio never said he intended to vote in the January primary, so what rights did he have that he could claim someone violated?

``DiMaio wholly fails to satisfy the constitutional criteria for standing'' to sue in federal court, U.S. District Judge Richard Lazarra ruled in October.

`Exercise in Futility'

Nor would the judge allow DiMaio's lawyer to amend his filings to insert DiMaio's intent. That ``would be an exercise in futility,'' because there's no way they'd win even if all vital elements were included, Lazarra wrote.

In fact, two months later another federal judge threw out a similar (but ably written) suit brought by Democratic Senator Bill Nelson of Florida against DNC Chairman Howard Dean and others.

``The DNC acted within its First Amendment association rights when it determined to exclude Florida delegates chosen in violation of the party's schedule,'' U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle of Tallahassee, Florida, wrote in December.

That ruling isn't binding on DiMaio, but it doesn't help, either.

Being Counted

Look, I get why Florida Democrats feel cheated. If you cast your vote in an election, you want it to count. You don't want the party bosses in Washington pushing you and your state around, either, declaring that only four, specific states are allowed to have early primaries.

How democratic is that?

The DNC underestimated the political storm it would kick up with its rules, which Michigan also defied. The national and state parties are now trying to figure out how to clean up the mess they created.

And while that sideshow unfolds, the race between the party's two frontrunners keeps getting nastier, the possibility of eventual reconciliation more remote, while the Republican Party has the luxury of spending this time to attempt unification.

Political problems don't mean a constitutional violation has occurred. A political party has every right to decide how it will pick its presidential nominee, as long as it doesn't, say, exclude a race of people from the process.

By the Rules

One of the judges on the 11th Circuit panel, Gerald B. Tjoflat, even volunteered during argument that the party could legally exclude whatever states it wanted to exclude, whether they abided by rules or not.

Eleventh Circuit Judge Stanley Marcus, in questioning Steinberg, won a concession that the national party has the right to set a primary schedule and compel compliance.

``But they have to treat the states equally'' Steinberg added. The party violated the 14th Amendment's equal protection promise by ``allowing some states to have more influence in the outcome than other states.''

The only thing is, to invoke the 14th Amendment, Steinberg must convince the judges that the DNC is a government. It's not like in 2000, when the state of Florida's actions were at issue.

``The party is an association,'' Tjoflat offered. ``It's not a government entity.''

Reality Intervenes

As for reducing Florida's influence by denying it an early primary, that's an assumption now undermined by reality.

Herein lies yet another problem with DiMaio's suit. (Are you counting?)

It assumed, as most of us did way back last summer, that by the time the first four contests ended, the nominee would be selected and the remaining states would have little or no say.

And yet, now it's March and still no nominee. For influence, a vernal equinox primary would have worked just fine.

By the time the judges got a chance to question the DNC's chief counsel, the first thing they asked was how they could dismiss the lawsuit in the legally proper way.

Sensing things hadn't gone well, Steinberg told reporters later that if the appeals court backs Lazarro's decision, he'll ask the U.S. Supreme Court to weigh in.

Now, there's a good Democrat for you. It seems he has forgotten what happened the last time the high court ruled in a presidential case from Florida.

(Ann Woolner is a Bloomberg news columnist. The opinions expressed are her own.)

To contact the writer of this column: Ann Woolner in Atlanta at awoolner@bloomberg.net.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_woolner&sid=aQVJm9Kr0v3A
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sirs

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2008, 01:01:34 PM »
The disenfranchisement, if you want to call it that, is unfortunate ......

But apparently acceptable when its Democrats doing it to Democrats.  But when it's bogus, meritless claims of the same being done by Bush & the GOP, all hell breaks out
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

fatman

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2008, 01:12:42 PM »
As for obsessive, did you not say that using the F word in a political forum is desperate?

Yes, now explain how that would qualify as "obsessive"?

I apologize for the lack of clarity in my statement.  A better way of explaining this is that you termed me obsessive, and I felt that the root of this was my not letting the whole "f-bomb" issue go, an issue that you brought up and have never explained or defended to my satisfaction.  Being as how you brought up that issue with me, I considered it fair to warn Rich about a possible condemnation by you.  Was it unfair of me to do so, or does that qualify as "obsessive"?


Did you not make continual references to the "F-bomb"?

I believe the "F" bomb is not a good thing in a political discourse, do you disagree?

Here you are semmingly condemning it yourself:


"As if telling XO to "fuck off", for insulting a cartoon, isn't personal. 
I don't agree with XO's comment, but your overreaction to it pushed my button"


Depending on the context, I both agree and disagree.  It is two entirely different things to say "f***ing people, or f***ing Repubs, Dems, whatever, and to say f*** off.  One is impersonal, the other isn't.  This could be said for most swear words.  I may say that you "bitch" about something, but I don't call you a "bitch".  Again, one is impersonal, a slang term.  The other is a personal comment dedicated to insulting  you.

To sum up my position on the F word, and most swear words in general, of use in this forum:  impersonal use of the term I have no problem with, but when it is directed at someone personally then yes, I do have an issue with that.  Again, context is everything.

If need be, I can link the posts for you

Why post a link to something I have never given any indication of denying?

You seem to think that I'm obsessive for bringing up the F-bomb argument.  If that's a misperception on my part, I apologize in advance.  While you may be willing to walk away from the argument, at this point I am not.  I do not believe that constitutes obsessiveness on my part.

And if I want to use the current line of thought regarding Obama's pastor,
how come you call me on it and not Rich?  Where's the condemnation there?
That's what I thought.
 

I condemn the use of the "F-word" by anyone in a poltical discussion.

Well it's nice to know that you're issuing condemnation of Rich for using the term in a personal form, and myself for using it as an impersonal expression of frustration.

I mean come on Fatman is'nt that a bit lame?

See the context argument that I've already outlined my position with.

You think BT would love it if everyone started putting F-bombs in more posts?  *eyeroll*

I don't pretend to know what BT thinks.  I do know that in the 6 or 7 years that I've been a member of this community, that I've seen it many, many times in both a personal and impersonal form.  I believe that there was a member a few years ago who used it almost every post, without fail  ( I think it was in this forum, but I'm not 100% positive on that ).  I don't recall seeing the issue being addressed by BT or any other moderator, the only issue dealing with members that I've seen addressed by them are the issue of personal attacks.  Saying the f word, the a word, the sh word, etc., in an impersonal manner not directed at any particular person does not constitute a personal attack in my mind.  To ban any of those words from discussion, when they're not used in a personal attack, is rather prissy, in my mind, and a bit restrictive of expression.

On the other hand in some ways I find it funny because to me it means
someone is losing the debate if they resort to that.


When a personal insult, without merit, is hurled, then yes, I agree that it generally means that person is "losing".  Using those words in a manner not directed at anyone, i.e. the sentence "The problems with this f***ing country are...." does not, to me at least, mean that someone is losing a debate.  That's my perception at least.

As far as Rich, I wasn't in the discussion with him, he didn't direct it at
me so I really didn't notice it.


Well, it was in a post two posts above mine, so I would believe that you saw it and chose not to react to it.  I don't feel that is an unreasonable belief to have.  If you want to play at being the "F-bomb" patrol, then please at least be consistent about it.

But again I just don't approve of it in
a political discussion,


I've figured that out, thanks.

but hey thats my opinion others can have theirs.

How magnanimous of you.

You'e not sure?

Would I have asked if I was?  Let's use some common sense.

LOL

Is there a comedian in the room?  Why the LOL?

Ok, well I said you appeared to be obsessed with me and that was Obsession cologne.

Two things.

First, you never said that I "appeared to obsessed with you".  What you said was dude you are obsessed,  you made no mention of the qualifier "appear", nor did you name the target of the obsession.  That doesn't leave me a lot to go on now, does it?  Further, I'm not obsessed with you.  I absolutely, hand on a stack of bibles over my heart swear it.  You give yourself far too much credit to think that you merit my obsession.  Matt Damon?  Hell yeah.  You?  Nope.

Secondly, I've never been diagnosed as mentally retarded.  I did quite well in high school and college, before I decided that I liked working with my hands and opted for trade school, which I also did very well at.  I do believe that I'm reasonably intelligent, as are you, though we disagree often and deeply sometimes.  That said, I don't need for you to accompany your posts with pictures as though I'm a kindergartner.  I think that we're both above that level of intelligence where pictures are needed to illustrate a point.

Hello?

Hello.  How are you?  I'm fine.

ps: fatman are you like an angry person?

Am I like an angry person, or am I an angry person?  Just messin wit ya  ;)

Not at all, though I do have a tendency to be a smart ass sometimes.  I try to call AMBE when I see it, although I'm not always successful.  As some are more susceptible in this forum to spraying their AMBE about the forum, I generally keep an eye on them.

I am actually happier than I've ever been, and well adjusted in life.  At least that's how I think of myself.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2008, 01:28:31 PM »
I am asking whether the "Chief Wahoo: cartoon is racist, infantile and dated.

He doesn't look like a chief to me. A true chief, at least on the Injun Stereotype Reservation, would have a respectable war bonnet, with many feathers. One feather is just a peon among the cartoon redskins.

Although I am mostly not Indian, my Choctaw side finds the concept of a crimson Injun somewhat infantile. I have known many Indians when I taught out in Washington State, and have yet to see one that was actually crimson. I have myself turned a bright shade of pink after too long at the beach, but that is not deep crimson.

Plus, it's dated. Indians once enjoyed lacrosse, but baseball is a paleface's game. Today's native Americans run casinos, hang out on the Res, work the high iron, write histories and novels, craft jewelry, fish and raise buffalo, and a hundred other jobs, but the one thing that they DON'T do these days is work as mascots for some paleface baseball team, and run about half-naked, whooping and waving a tomahawk about.

I don't think any real Indians ever did that. It's like blaming Black men for bad minstrel acts.

A half-naked, tomahawk-wielding savage is just as racist as a Black man with a cotton picking sack, Aunt Jemima with a stack of pancakes, a drunken redhaired Irishman dressed in green and wavign a sheleigleigh about, ot a hook-nosed Jew with sidecurls gloating over a pot of gold jewelry.
 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2008, 03:07:42 PM »
fatman i am at work a bit busy running a company
so i really dont see a point in responding to all that sentence by sentence
it's kind of boring. ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
so to save time, basically, you're on venus and i am on mars
i have engaged with you in other posts when we were not disagreeing
but you seem to want to do nothing but give me shit (obsessed)
it's cool, I am fine with that, i am not complaining, we are just very different
i think you have some anger towards me from past discussions
if you wanna bring me up when posting to other people,lol,hey it's your choice
i am not saying this in reference to you at all, more just to explain in general
i can kick someone's ass and then have a beer with them afterwards
in other words, i really don't carry it forward


« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 04:15:24 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Rich

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2008, 03:16:32 PM »
>>You're using information that is technically true to come up with conclusions that are patently false.<<

They are conjecture, and being such I don?t think you can label them false. 

>>Perhaps no one ever dreamed something "like this" would happen. I happen to think that Hillary and her team did or at the very least HOPED it would.  I think that perhaps even as far back as Howard Dean's candidacy for the chair of the DNC.<<

Why would she hope it would happen a year ago? A year ago she was the inevitable unbeatable candidate.

>>The disenfranchisement, if you want to call it that, is unfortunate but the people to blame for that are the heads of the parties in the two states of FL and MI.<<

Which are of course democrats.

>>Even I myself, surmised that Hillary would steamroll the primaries and when she didn't I was stunned. Now that may count towards your statement of "nobody...ever dreamed something like this would happen" but I don't think it does. For my part, I'm elated that she hasn't and may lose the nomination altogether.<<

You were typical of the thinking of the time. Really, who had ever even heard of Barack Hussein Obama? Which is my point.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 03:18:18 PM by Rich »

Rich

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2008, 04:02:48 PM »
>>I condemn the use of the "F-word" by anyone in a poltical discussion.<<

Obviously I don't. But then at that point it wasn't really a political discussion now was it?  ;)

I use it sparingly, and I'll continue to do so. But once in a while you just have to say, what the f***.

 ;)


Brassmask

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2008, 05:00:01 PM »
The disenfranchisement, if you want to call it that, is unfortunate ......

But apparently acceptable when its Democrats doing it to Democrats.  But when it's bogus, meritless claims of the same being done by Bush & the GOP, all hell breaks out

The Democratic Parties of  MI And FL conducted their OWN disenfranchisement.  That's different from having Bush and the GOP disenfranchise voters outside their own party.

You really want this to be about the whole Dem Party but sorry, it's not.

It's about the party bosses in FL and MI trying a little civil disobedience and paying a price they knew they'd have to.  If the voters need to lynch someone, they should lynch their state's Dem Party leaders.  Not Howard Dean or Barack Obama.

And as a GOP voter on his way to seeing a Dem take the White House, I don't really see what it has to do with you.  Or are you a proponent of the politics of destruction?
Fin

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2008, 05:13:58 PM »
"a GOP voter on his way to seeing a Dem take the White House"



March 19, 2008

McCain leads Obama by 6, Clinton by 8 in Reuters/Zogby Poll

The latest Reuters/Zogby national poll gives Republican Sen. John McCain leads
over both his potential Democratic rivals for the White House.

He's ahead of Obama by 46%-40% and ahead of Clinton 48%-40%.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/03/mccain-leads-ob.html

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2008, 05:40:20 PM »
The Democratic Parties of  MI And FL conducted their OWN disenfranchisement.  That's different from having Bush and the GOP disenfranchise voters outside their own party.

No one in the GOP or with Bush disenfranchised anyone.  That's the bogus claim.  Your pleading that the Dems didn't follow their own rules as to why your giving a pass to the disenfranchsing of likely millions of those who voted their choice for President.  Hey, that's cool, and to a large part I'd agree. 

However, there's not 1 shred of hard evidence that Bush or the GOP disenfranchised anyone, be it in 2000 or 2004.  What there is, is a bunch of shrill crying by the losing party, under an umbrella of so-called being disenfranchised.

If Gore had simply taken his home state.  tsk, tsk, tsk


You really want this to be about the whole Dem Party but sorry, it's not.

Not really, it's about how it's apparently ok to disenfranchise millions, if its done by Democrats

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2008, 06:59:03 PM »
Quote
Not really, it's about how it's apparently ok to disenfranchise millions, if its done by Democrats.

The rules of party plainly state that moving your state's primary could result in loss of delegates.   

Purposely shooting yourself in the head and dying doesn't incriminate the laws of physics.

What you're really saying is that it is ok to break the rules when it behooves your stance in 3DHS.

sirs

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2008, 07:17:52 PM »
Quote
Not really, it's about how it's apparently ok to disenfranchise millions, if its done by Democrats.

The rules of party plainly state that moving your state's primary could result in loss of delegates.   

Hey, I already conceded that I concur.  Still disenfranchises all those voters.  Kinda like when you inaccurately punch too many chads on a ballot, thus breaking the rules of how to submit a ballot, voiding said ballot (ironically designed by a Democrat, and administered by Democrats).  That's the closest you're gonna get to any disenfranchisement of other-than-democrat voters, with Bush & the GOP


What you're really saying is that it is ok to break the rules when it behooves your stance in 3DHS.

No, that would be Xo.  He wants the delgates seated, apparently to give Hillary a better shot
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 08:16:58 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

fatman

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2008, 08:04:06 PM »
i am not saying this in reference to you at all, more just to explain in general
i can kick someone's ass and then have a beer with them afterwards
in other words, i really don't carry it forward


I can live with that.  Sorry for the boring post, I was bored this morning.

Truce, if you can live with the f word once in awhile.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2008, 11:29:27 PM »
There is no reason why NH or Iowa always have to have their primaries first.

I want the votes counted because votes should ALWAYS count.

I voted for Edwards. But if a majority of Floridians voted for Hillary, sure, she should get those votes.

I don't think it was fair for the party to ignore Florida. The Republican state legislature voted to hold the election earlier, there is no reason to punish FL voters.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."