Author Topic: The government owns your property  (Read 10752 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
The government owns your property
« on: March 21, 2008, 05:30:28 PM »
What you own, you don't really own it. You're just holding it for the government.

      Civil forfeiture can apply to virtually any property: cars, houses, boats and, as the Rickses' case demonstrates, even money. The property can be seized merely on suspicion that it was used in connection with a crime or resulted from criminal activity.

[...]

While criminal forfeiture requires that a property owner be found guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, civil forfeiture does not require that the owner even be accused of a crime, much less convicted. The government proceeds directly against the property it wants to take, which means owners are not entitled to any of the protections they would receive if they were accused of a crime.

[...]

 The FBI's adoption of the Lima police's forfeiture is not unusual - the federal government regularly seizes property that was originally confiscated by local authorities and then splits the resulting profits. In Missouri, for example, authorities were recently caught turning forfeitures over to the federal government in order to avoid a legal requirement that proceeds go to schools.

The abuses don't stop there. In the 1990s, police in Louisiana were stealing innocent people's property by fabricating drug crimes. They used the proceeds for ski trips to Aspen.
      

Whole thing at the other end of this link.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 05:37:40 PM »
These forfeiture laws are based on "Admiralty Law" and essentially the item is being charged with a crime rather than the owner. Since items are not human, and therefore have no rights, the police don't have to actually bring a case in court or anything...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 08:25:03 PM »
This is evil.

And it is not to be blamed on 'Liberals'. either.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

fatman

  • Guest
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 09:10:15 PM »
Any money derived from forfeiture should go towards victims groups and better education and job opportunities in prisons.  Not towards the police, or governments, or public awareness campaigns.  All that causes is a self-perpetuating system, that is certain to become worse.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 10:44:38 PM »
And it is not to be blamed on 'Liberals'. either.

No, we'll just blame the administration that ushered in the forfeiture laws.

That would be Carter.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 11:08:31 PM »

And it is not to be blamed on 'Liberals'. either.


I don't blame liberals. Not as such. I blame people in government who abuse their position to acquire power.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 12:24:21 PM »
If everything were owned in common this would not be an issue. ;)
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 12:26:33 PM »
If everything were owned in common this would not be an issue. ;)

No; there would be different issues. Like when someone else decides that they want the house I'm living in for some other reason.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 12:50:48 PM »
If everything were owned in common this would not be an issue. ;)

No; there would be different issues. Like when someone else decides that they want the house I'm living in for some other reason.

Not at all. The right to privacy would still exist. Why is ownership and materialism so important? I'm asking sincerely.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 12:56:40 PM »
Not at all. The right to privacy would still exist. Why is ownership and materialism so important? I'm asking sincerely.

How does privacy exist when my house is "owned by everyone"?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 01:08:10 PM »
Not at all. The right to privacy would still exist. Why is ownership and materialism so important? I'm asking sincerely.

How does privacy exist when my house is "owned by everyone"?

Common ownership doesn't mean that there would be a lack of law. Everyone would have housing and where reasonable expectation of privacy is protected by law, it would be enforced.

Now answer my question, please?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 01:26:57 PM »
Common ownership doesn't mean that there would be a lack of law. Everyone would have housing and where reasonable expectation of privacy is protected by law, it would be enforced.

And, under this law of "common ownership" who gets to decide where I'll live and how long I'll live there?

Now answer my question, please?

I don't see much of a difference between "everyone owns everything" and "the government owns everything" - either way, someone else can decide to put me out of my house whenever they feel like it, and I don't have a say in the matter.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 01:41:13 PM »
Common ownership doesn't mean that there would be a lack of law. Everyone would have housing and where reasonable expectation of privacy is protected by law, it would be enforced.

And, under this law of "common ownership" who gets to decide where I'll live and how long I'll live there?

Now answer my question, please?

I don't see much of a difference between "everyone owns everything" and "the government owns everything" - either way, someone else can decide to put me out of my house whenever they feel like it, and I don't have a say in the matter.

Ideally, you'll get to decide where you'll live and for how long. There'd be limitations of course, but there are now as well. The only difference is that the people would determine those limiting factors as opposed to the "invisible hand."

Why would anyone put you out of your house under common ownership? There's no rent or mortgage to pay. Landlords are replaced by the people and democracy. I suppose if you are planning on murdering someone (or some other such heinous crime) then you might lose the right to live freely, but that would be true in today's capitalist society as well. So the net loss their is zero. I'm not seeing the conflict.

You still have not answered my question. Why is ownership and materialism so important?

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Bring on the flames...
    • View Profile
    • Mario's Home Page
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2008, 01:46:25 PM »
Why would anyone put you out of your house under common ownership?

Because that piece of land is needed for something else which others have decided is more important than the use I'm putting it to - same as now. It's just that now, the decision is based on who can pay more taxes to the local government. Under your model, the decision is based on who can convince more people they are justified.

You still have not answered my question. Why is ownership and materialism so important?

Sure I have.

"I don't see much of a difference between "everyone owns everything" and "the government owns everything" - either way, someone else can decide to put me out of my house whenever they feel like it, and I don't have a say in the matter."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: The government owns your property
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 02:12:53 PM »
Why would anyone put you out of your house under common ownership?

Because that piece of land is needed for something else which others have decided is more important than the use I'm putting it to - same as now. It's just that now, the decision is based on who can pay more taxes to the local government. Under your model, the decision is based on who can convince more people they are justified.

You still have not answered my question. Why is ownership and materialism so important?

Sure I have.

"I don't see much of a difference between "everyone owns everything" and "the government owns everything" - either way, someone else can decide to put me out of my house whenever they feel like it, and I don't have a say in the matter."

I suppose it is possible under certain circumstances. An example might be that the building you live in is not deemed livable. It would be up to the particular collective to determine what provisions are made, but housing would be available to all and without cost. Therefore, any need caused by displacement would be immediately met.

So ownership and materialism are only important for the negative reaction of loss of ownership or loss of material wealth? That is a cyclical argument and not at all logical. Yet, if that is all there is to it (and clearly it cannot be all there is) then overcoming crass consumerism should be a simple task.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.