When?

[sirs]

What's your timetable? How open ended is it?

I'll give it a few more years, and assess the progress.  If it's still moving in the right direction, I'll be ok with it.  If the Iraqi Government starts to really slide, then I'll reassess my position

When it STARTS TO SLIDE??

Yea, meaning when the current PROGRESS, stops becoming progress and goes the opposite direction.  Just because progress is slow to some folks opinion, Miss Cynthia, doesn't mean it's "sliding backwards"

This "mission accomplished" war was not supposed to last THIS LONG!

And who the heck told you that??  Certainly not Bush, and certainly not Rumsfeld.  They made it crystal clear from the beginning, this was going to take a while....the post Mission Accomplished stuff.  You would grasp that if you weren't so hell bent on blaming Bush for all the countries woes, like education

I CAN'T WAIT to read your new position when you reassess.

You're going to have to

[Xavier_Onassis]

A) it IS OUR war, since it IS about the threat of Islamofascism to my kids, grandkids, and greatgrandkids.
B) We broke it, we fix it
==============================================
Sorry, I didn't break it. I have never voted for one single asshole Bush, ever.
I am not responsible for the idiots that elected this fool, nor the Supremes who put him on the throne after he LOST the popular vote. You guys pay for his mistakes, not me. I see no reason why I should pay for the stupidity of others.


He was given Colin Powell for adult supervision, and Powell said "You break it, you have to fix it."
But he was so effing STOOPID that he failed to listen.

Juniorbush is a bigger threat to the people of this country that any 'Islamofascist' ever has been or ever will be.

=====================================
We are not going to ever see the "light at the end of the tunnel". It is not a tunnel, it's a pit. Just like Vietnam.

[Cynthia]

?If we just saved the money instead of spending it, we could have made our deficits smaller, which would have been better for our economic health,? Seiver said.

As it is, our economic health is just another casualty of war.



http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/calbreath/20080330-9999-1b30dean.html



What a waste! This was never supposed to be a full out war declared...nor was it a take over to last 100 years.

Unfortunately,  people who can't see through their own clouded vision, out of a need to win at all cost, will support this war no matter what.
Pride?
Ego?
Fear of being wrong?

Who knows, but it takes a very brave soul to admit  a miscalculation.

There are those who still believe that the Vietnam conflict was a good thing, in the end.

Sad.

[BT]

Funny how people talk about return on investment when it comes to Iraq but howl like struck pigs when  return on investment is discussed concerning public education.

Public education: Throw more money at the problem, don't hold people accountable, don't expect results.

Cause ya know, it's hard and unfair.

Iraq: Cut off funding, hold people accountable, expect tangible results.

Go figure.

[Cynthia]

"And who the heck told you that??  Certainly not Bush, and certainly not Rumsfeld.  They made it crystal clear from the beginning, this was going to take a while....the post Mission Accomplished stuff.  You would grasp that if you weren't so hell bent on blaming Bush for all the countries woes, like education."

 There was a moment in time when BUSH stood on a place of success-Mission Accomplished. ON a ship long ago, far away singin' a tune.....
 I saw it with my own eyes. I know that you will say that he declared that 'M-A" because ......
Saddam was running into the nearest rat hole.
The people were 'DANCING IN THE STREETS' because the US had finally arrived.
Democracy was just around the corner.

To which I say; WHAT? So early? Even his advisors warned him not to post such a sign of victory so early on!

Sirs, come on. The true intentions for this war were never made clear to the American people at that time. NOW they're clear as mud. But, those crystal clear days of  a well planned out MissioN during the Bush administration never prepared us for what is happening. Why? Because they had no idea what we were up against.

I am only pointing out some details as I read them. I, for one, am not afraid to admit if I am wrong. Three years ago, I supported this war for the very reasons you still support this war, Sirs. I believe in democracy in the world.


I believe we should have gone after Osama first, who by the way is still out there. If we had focused more on that element of the "war on terror", all the while keeping a close eye on the Iraq side of things, remaining focused on homeland security, etc, we could have executed a better plan of action. We could have elicited the help of nations then. IF, if  a broader field of attack were "necessary".

Instead, we just plowed right in, nations around the world refusing to back us, pulling out, hating us more.
 Bush and his cronies were not as wise as you think. How many of them have retired by now?

 They too have left us in the dust of Iraq!  Now, another administration has to pick up the pieces. "You made the mess, YOU clean it up", as children say on the playing field, ha. Too bad. Bush shoud never have made such a mess. Now, others like our future grandkids will have to pay for this one. What a mess.
This is not how a war should be fought. Planning is everything.  There should have been a better form of support(as I posted in the article earlier today). This war was a push for power. This was an overreaction to terrorism.  Sure, Iraq's regime was in need of a major overhaul. I still feel that Saddam was a very bad seed.
 Too many people have died for this so called war on Iraqi terrorim,  and I believe they did not have to.



Come on, I don't blame Bush for all the woes of this nation, but,hmmm now that YOU'VE brought it up, perhaps you're on to something there.  

[Cynthia]

Funny how people talk about return on investment when it comes to Iraq but howl like struck pigs when  return on investment is discussed concerning public education.

Public education: Throw more money at the problem, don't hold people accountable, don't expect results.

Cause ya know, it's hard and unfair.

Iraq: Cut off funding, hold people accountable, expect tangible results.

Go figure.

The Iraqi war? NCLB?


Same sort of ignorance because both were not well planned out.
Go figure.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Public education: Throw more money at the problem, don't hold people accountable, don't expect results.

Cause ya know, it's hard and unfair.

Iraq: Cut off funding, hold people accountable, expect tangible results.

=======================================================================

Well, they aren't the same thing.
Public Education ALWAYS is somewhat successful. We DO educate young people at least as well as the world average. We could be better at it, but it is not a vast money pit where no returns other than dead and wounded soldiers and thousands of foreigners who loathe us, and/or will never believe a word we say again is the result.

The country has no option but to educate its youth.,

ON THE OTHER HAND, the Iraq War was not only optional, but a very, very bad idea, carried out very very poorly, and still could turn out to be the worst US failure since Vietnam, if not the Civil War.

We spend lots more educating and equipping soldiers to fight in imperialist wars than we spend on universities training teachers. It cost more to have one soldier deployed in Iraq than it ever will to deploy a teacher to a classroom.

A smarter population is always an asset. An empire, or a failed empire is not an asset at all to most of the people.

[sirs]

"And who the heck told you that??  Certainly not Bush, and certainly not Rumsfeld.  They made it crystal clear from the beginning, this was going to take a while....the post Mission Accomplished stuff.  You would grasp that if you weren't so hell bent on blaming Bush for all the countries woes, like education."

There was a moment in time when BUSH stood on a place of success-Mission Accomplished. ON a ship long ago, far away singin' a tune..... I saw it with my own eyes. I know that you will say that he declared that 'M-A" because ......

....because it was.  The mission of taking out Saddam and his regime had been accomplished.  Timeline Miss Cynthia.....timeline

The people were 'DANCING IN THE STREETS' because the US had finally arrived.  Democracy was just around the corner.

No, that'd be DNC spin, which apparently you've adopted.  Push a false premice then provide facts that refute said bogus premice.  H does that alot as well.  But I still respect both of yours opinions

Sirs, come on. The true intentions for this war were never made clear to the American people at that time.

Then either
A) you weren't paying attention
or
B) your anger of Bush has become to the point of irrationally rationalizing a false premise, pushed by the anti-war and anti Bush crowd.

I am only pointing out some details as I read them.

And I'm pointing out where you're blurring pre and post war actions.

I, for one, am not afraid to admit if I am wrong.

Well that's good, because you're wrong here.  The mission of taking out Saddam's regime WAS accomplished.  The post-war planning has been poor at best, and did not have near enough contingencies in place to impliment immediately when the insurgency became much greater than anyone had anticipated (outside of the anti-war anti Bush crowd perhaps).  There, you CAN legitimately criticize Bush and co.  But the reasons we went in, and how long we might be there, were clear from the get-go, for anyone who was paying attention.

Three years ago, I supported this war for the very reasons you still support this war, Sirs. I believe in democracy in the world.....Too many people have died for this so called war on Iraqi terrorim,  and I believe they did not have to.

And I beleive that taking the Neville Chamberlain approach to the threat of Islamofascism, would have led to exponentially far more lives taken, that didn't have to be.

[BT]

375 billion dollars per year spent on education at the federal level going all the way back to LBJ.

And for that we have kids who can't fill out job applications and if they go to college they need remedial courses.

You don't think the war is worth it? Your representatives do. They voted for it, and they continue to fund it. Don't like your reps, vote them out.

Wait you already did that.

[_JS]

When they're done       

Right now there are quite a few MCT's and similar units from the Army Reserve and National Guard preparing to mobilize to Iraq. If you are enlisted and have an MOS of 88 November or the more common 88 Mike then you may be highly likely to see your name on a short list.

One might ask why the army would need more Movement Control Teams in Iraq. Well, you can decide for yourself, but their primary mission is to move personnel and material. So an educated guess is that they are either moving more people into Iraq - or starting to move more personnel out of Iraq and likely in big numbers.

[Xavier_Onassis]

But the reasons we went in, and how long we might be there, were clear from the get-go, for anyone who was paying attention.

==============================================
No, it WAS NOT made clear at all. You need to review what Rumsfeld said.
We invaded Iraq becauase of the threat of some Weapons of Mass Destruction: Nucleau weapons, poison gas, weaponized anthrax and smallpox. Juniorbush demanded that Saddam leave Iraq within a determined short time period, but that proviso was not included in the authorization.

Juniorbush mad some weird landing on a carrier off the coast of California in a flightsuit, and there was this huge banner
behind him. Her announced that the military phase of the war was complete. This turned out to be every bit as bogus as Bush, Cheney and Rummy themselves.

It said MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

It did NOT SAY : FOUR OR MORE YEARS OF THIS.

It did not say: ONE HUNDRED YEARS IF THAT IS WHAT IT TAKES.

Democracy was not mentioned anywhere, either.

It made NO reference whatever to 'Islamofascism'.

I was paying attention. It might be that you weren't.

[Lanya]

<<And who the heck told you that??  Certainly not Bush, and certainly not Rumsfeld. >>

Oh, wait....

Other top officials, including Cheney and Rumsfeld, said the war would last "weeks, not months."

Influential outside advisers who urged the administration to target Saddam went even further. Kenneth Adelman, a Reagan administration official who serves on a Pentagon advisory board, said in a Washington Post column in February that the war would be "a cakewalk." Richard Perle, who chaired that board until last week, predicted in July that support for Saddam, even within the Iraqi military, would "collapse after the first whiff of gunpowder."

from a USA Today article in 2003
http://www.usatoday.com/educate/war28-article.htm

[Lanya]

Mission Accomplished

Monday, March 31, 2008
Iran Brokers Call for Ceasefire;
Bush reduced to Irrelevancy in Iraq;
Fighting Continues

McClatchy provides a lot of important detail about Sunday's surprising developments regarding the fight between the Iraqi government and the Mahdi Army. A parliamentary delegation from Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's own coalition (mainly now the Da`wa Party and the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq) defied him by going off to the holy seminary city of Qom in Iran and negotiating directly with Sayyid Muqtada al-Sadr and with the leader of the Quds Brigades of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, Brig. Gen. Qasim Sulaymani.

As a result of those parleys, Muqtada al-Sadr called on his followers to stand down, though I read his statement as permitting continued armed self-defense, as at Basra where the Iraqi Army is attacking them and the US is bombing them. Significantly, he calls on the Mahdi Army to stop attacking the HQs of rival political parties. That language suggests that the parties are suffering from such attacks and are worried that party infrasture is being degraded ahead of the October 1 provincial elections. The southern parties have essentially defied al-Maliki and Bush to make a separate peace.

The entire episode underlines how powerful Iran has become in Iraq. The Iranian government had called on Saturday for the fighting to stop. And by Sunday evening it had negotiated at least a similar call from Sadr (whether the fighting actually stops remains to be seen and depends on local commanders and on whether al-Maliki meets Sadr's conditions).

Al-Sadr's statement is translated here. The main points:


    ' We have decided the following:

    1. Cancel the armed manifestation in Basra and all over the governorates.

    2. Stopping the illegal and random raids and arrests.

    3. Demanding the government to apply the General Amnesty law and release all the prisoners that was not proved to be guilty and especially the prisoners of Sadr movement.

    4. We announce our innocence from any one who caries the weapon and target the government and services apparatuses and establishments and parties offices.

    5. Cooperating with the government apparatuses in achieving security and condemn criminals according to the legal procedures.

    6. We assure that the Sadr movement doesn't have any heavy weapons.

    7. Working on returning the displaced people that moved due to security events to their original places.

    8. We are asking the government to take care of the Human rights on all of its procedures.

    9. Working on achieving the constructional and services projects all over the governorates.

    [Signed and stamped Muqtada Sadr 22/Rabi Awal/1429]'



The NYT notes the irony here that the al-Maliki government is dependent on Muqtada al-Sadr to pull its fat from the fire:

    'Many Iraqi politicians say that Mr. Maliki?s political capital has been severely depleted by the campaign and that he is now in the curious position of having to turn to Mr. Sadr, a longtime rival and now his opponent in battle, for a solution to the crisis.'



McClatchy reports civil war violence on Sunday, suggesting that any cease fire has not yet taken hold:


    ' Baghdad

    - Rockets hit the Green Zone (IZ) in Baghdad in different times in the morning and afternoon. No casualties reported.

    - Around 5 pm, gunmen attacked New Baghdad police station (east Baghdad) .Three policemen were injured.

    - Around 5 pm, mortars hit Dora police station .No casualties recorded.

    - Around 5 pm, clashes took place in Ur between gunmen and Iraqi police . Six people were injured including two policemen.

    - At 5:10 pm, two mortars hit Karrada neighborhood , one hit Al-Hussein intersection near Al-Hussein two floor bridge killing 3 and injuring 8 others while the second shell hit a barber shop few meters of the same intersection killing 3 and injuring 13 others.

    - Police found five dead bodies in . . . neighborhoods in Baghdad . . .

    Basra

    - Around 7:30 pm, three people were killed due to a fighter plane bombing at Abu Sukheir neighborhood (north Basra).

    Diyala

    - Around 9:30 am, American planes bombed Jizan neighborhood of Wajihiyah (20 east Baquba).One civilian was killed and another was injured.

    - In the morning, one civilian was killed during the clashes between the Iraqi army and gunmen at Kanaan (10 km south east Baquba)

    - Around 10 am, a roadside bomb targeted the convoy of Ibrahim Hassan, the head of Diyala governorate council , while it was on its way at Saadiya (90 km east Baquba) between Baquba and Khanaqeen .Two of his guards were killed in that incident.

    Karbala

    - Around 9.30 pm of Saturday night, a roadside bomb targeted an Iraqi army patrol at Al-Haidriyah (Khan Al-Nus) in midway between Najaf and Karbala. One officer was killed with two other soldiers.

    Salahuddin

    - In the morning, gunmen attacked a police check point at Bishkan village (10 km east of Dhulwiyah near Balad) .Six policemen were killed including an officer with their vehicle damaged.

    - Today, an American force arrested two members of Al-Alam supporting council near AlLaqlaq village (35 km north of Tikrit) one of them is an officer .

    Mosul

    - In the morning, clashes took place between gunmen and police at Sahachi (west Mosul).Colonel Qasim Ziad, the commander of the first police battalion in Mosul was killed with one of his guards.

    Kirkuk

    - In the morning, a roadside bomb targeted a rescue police patrol at Tiseen street in Kirkuk city. Three people were injured in that incident including two women. '
http://juancole.com/

[Xavier_Onassis]

375 billion dollars per year spent on education at the federal level going all the way back to LBJ.

And for that we have kids who can't fill out job applications and if they go to college they need remedial courses.

We DO graduate Seniors that can fill out job applications, and do not require remedial courses. All students should be able to do these things, but there is a degree of success in doing these things that shows a greater degree of success than the Iraq War.
======================================================

Not all students can do everything they are supposed to do. I imagine that there are many, or perhaps just some on this forum who always have someone else do their income taxes. If this is true, do you blame your high school math or accounting teacher, or do you blame the government, for making the forms so difficult?  I imagine that most would tend to blame the government.

I always do mine with the help of the computer and some software, by the way. I suppose I am an exception to the average professor of humanities, at least where I teach.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You don't think the war is worth it? Your representatives do. They voted for it, and they continue to fund it. Don't like your reps, vote them out.

Wait you already did that.

Again, if you blame Congress for not passing laws, it is probable that you do not understand that if there is no compromise between parties (and there has been little of that lately), there will be no bills passed.

You could blame the Democrats for not compromising or the Republicans for being obstructionist. But the truth is that no party can push legislation throgh without a supermajority.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

[BT]

Fewer Oklahoma high school grads need remedial courses in college


OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) ? A report presented to Oklahoma state higher education regents notes that first-time freshmen direct from state high schools are taking fewer remedial courses at state colleges and universities.

The remediation report of the 2006-2007 High School Indicators Project found that 35 percent of Oklahoma's college freshmen need remediation. That's a drop from 36.7 percent during the previous school year.

The most recent rate is the second-lowest for Oklahoma students in 10 years.

The report notes that students who take remedial courses graduate from college at a lower rate than those who do not need such classes.

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2008/03/21/68493okcollegesremedialcourses_ap.html


pitiful