When?

[BT]

Apologies Bt.

No problem, and really no need.

[Amianthus]

Socialism advocates at the most basic level, turning over the means of production to the proletariat and creating a classless society.

OK, "means of production" is labor.

What's the difference between this system and a capitalist system with little to no government regulation?

[Christians4LessGvt]

JS doesn't socialism advocate the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production
and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the hands of governemnt? Wouldn't that be turning
over power to the governemnt that the government does not currently have?

"No. That isn't what socialism advocates at all"

Socialism advocates at the most basic level, turning over the means of production to the proletariat and creating a classless society. Not all socialists believe that land should be communal. There would be far less government to the point of eventually having none at all.
 
SO JS in Socialist Counties there is "far less government" than in the United States?

[Christians4LessGvt]

Oh and JS
can you explain
why
BT's, SIRS, Rich's, mine, and Vice President Cheney's money is XO's?

"No"

NO?
LOL
WHY NOT?

[Cynthia]

"Well, in my estate here....ha"

Umm ok, not sure what that means
but Cynthia I hope you enjoy your vacation.

Hey, dear...You were being sincere,my apologies.

I am here at my home, which overlooks a million dollar view...quite literally. The mountains are vast and my view is all the way to Santa Fe.

I'll share a photo or two on my profile for you, Christians...thanks.

I am spent on the board for awhile. I guess it's my time to bow out.

God bless you and all.

It was fun.

Cindy

[Amianthus]

But, there is nothing I gain from being bullied and pushed instead of heard.Ami, of all people I thought you would understand that dynamics.

Regardless of who brought up the claim of 60% (yes, I remember you mentioning it) BT did source the numbers. Requesting that you provide backup for your claims is NOT being "bullied and pushed" - any members of any debate forum should be expected to backup ANY of their claims.

As I have said many times, I usually only ask for sources when I think you're wrong. It allows you to look up the information yourself, and if you still think you're right, present it.

What I think is funny is that those of liberal persuasion are usually the ones who claim that being asked for sources is being "bullied." I didn't accept "because I said so" from my parents or my teachers, I don't know why I should be expected to accept it from relatively complete strangers on the Internet. If I'm asked for a source for any of my claims, I ALWAYS provide it. It's called rational debating.

[Amianthus]

The fact in this particular point is..that the actual number of drop outs is more likely around 18% which WHICH in the mind of your average Joe/Jane makes more of an impression for the district than against.

OK, I got around to reading the report, and the math within looks pretty correct. A 60-70% graduation rate (ie, 30-40% of children entering 9th grade do not get a diploma) looks like the reasonable conclusion from this report.

Do you have any evidence that either the numbers collected or the methodology used is incorrect?

[Amianthus]

Well, then I'll leave it at that. I was only making a point about details in the news and facts in the information age in which we live.

And the point I was trying to make is that if you want to convince others that your point is correct, produce the evidence. I have seen the evidence for the 60% graduation rate; I have yet to see any evidence for a higher graduation rate. If it exists, I would be happy to review it and accept the numbers if they look reasonable.

The simple fact is that I have not seen the numbers you're claiming. And for some reason, you're not providing them, either.

[Xavier_Onassis]

OK, "means of production" is labor.

What's the difference between this system and a capitalist system with little to no government regulation?

=====================================
No, the means of production is NOT labor. Factories are the means of production, because they sell what labor produces.

The laborers in a socialist society receive the benefits pof all their labor through the state, not through the small salaries they receive from the capitalist under capitalism.

Read Marx someday.

Dickless Cheney did not divest himself of doodly-squat. He still owns a huge chunk of Halliburton through some sort of blind trust. He just denies everything. But he lies. And lies. And lies some more. Eventually the truth will come out.

[Amianthus]

No, the means of production is NOT labor. Factories are the means of production, because they sell what labor produces.

The laborers in a socialist society receive the benefits pof all their labor through the state, not through the small salaries they receive from the capitalist under capitalism.

Read Marx someday.

I'd like to see the factory that makes something without labor.

[Universe Prince]

The laborers in a socialist society receive the benefits pof all their labor through the state, not through the small salaries they receive from the capitalist under capitalism.

How does the state know how much to give each laborer?

[Rich]

>>Cheney has a deferred compensation account with Halliburton arranged in 1998 of which he is still legally entitled to own.<<

This is interesting. He is still legally entitled to own? Of course he doesn't, and hasn't since 2000.

Or figures seem to differ, but that doesn't change the fact that regardless of what he EARNED while at Haliburton, he hasn't recieved anything additional from it since 2000.

As for hating America, you always revel in reminding us of America's past mistakes. What makes America great is that we've been great enough to fix our mistakes, and we do so unlike most countries on the planet.

[Cynthia]

Of course he doesn't, and hasn't since 2000.

Our figures seem to differ, but that doesn't change the fact that regardless of what he EARNED while at Haliburton, he hasn't recieved anything additional from it since 2000.


Rich,

Is there some evidence of this you can provide as fact?

Just curious. I am not being fliappant...ha...seriously, have you posted the "figures" before? If so, I'll go back and read them.

[_JS]

Socialism advocates at the most basic level, turning over the means of production to the proletariat and creating a classless society.

OK, "means of production" is labor.

What's the difference between this system and a capitalist system with little to no government regulation?

I would qualify that and say that labor is a variable that forms the means of production.

The difference is that capitalism historically promotes the bourgeoisie and the elite to the detriment of the proletariat. Essentially, there are structures within capitalism that are constantly promoting a society that controls the proletariat and forces class conflict. A perfect example is the racism that still exists today. Another example is the institution of marriage and how it is used to regulate lives. At one time it was law that mixed marriage was illegal. Yet, even though the Southern states legalized it, society still frowns upon it. Homosexuals have gained some acceptance from society in that they can live together in some areas without hassle, yet they are precluded from marriage - a bourgeoisie institution.

The difference is that socialism cannot be decoupled from history. We know that until the proletariat gains class consciousness and overcomes all of these false impediments to succeed in revolution, then all of these societal constructs will continue to promote the bourgeoisie and the elite.

[_JS]

SO JS in Socialist Counties there is "far less government" than in the United States?

There are different socialist theories, just as there are different capitalists and different libertarians.

There are no true socialist countries as there has never been a succesful proletariat revolution and class consciousness has never truly been achieved. I do appreciate the Nordic countries for their ability to take care of their people and prove that much of neoliberal theory is bullshit. Yet, they are but a step towards class consciousness, not the end product.

I find that many people who ridicule Marx have never read Marx. A tiny minority have made a cursory skim of the Manifesto when they were 16. That's interesting to me. I've read and studied both sides, and still do. Most people don't bother to understand socialism, they just attack it without a second thought.